What is your thoughts on Abortion?

Alex Schwartz said:

Explain your reasoning

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The controversy over abortion arises when several systemic considerations are ignored in favor of focusing on one critical node in the network...unplanned pregnancy. Making it all about one or two person(s) choice is myopic.

Mysogenistic cultural norms are among the worst offenders. Family support which defies those cultural norms a great compensatory. Fear of sex and dysfunctional attitudes towards sexual gratification are great negative influencers. Etc...

Loosestrife said:

Animals don't look nothing like humans but we still see enough value in them to allow them to not be harmed or mistreated.

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You must mean “the other” animals don’t look....since we are animals. Vertebrate, mammals, primate, big apes, to be precise.

Ciao

- viole

Loosestrife said:

Im not throwing away anyone's choice. Everyone has free will. I can't make anyone do anything but I do believe in God and I believe terminating life in the womb is playing God in a way. No one has the right to take life except him and every action has a consequence.

I only sympathize with those that were abused ( raped or were molested at a young age) who see abortion as an out...but a party girl who had a little too much fun and uses abortion as a form of birth control.. I can't muster empathy for.
I feel they should take responsibility for their actions, being loose and not using protection. At the very least consider adoption I think.

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Well, God is very implausible. Especially the Christian one. And we live, well at least the lucky ones, in a secular society that does not legislate based on the wishes or rights of imaginary beings.

Do you have other arguments against abortion that do not rely on things that dont have a shred of evidence for their existence?

Ciao

- viole

viole said:

Well, God is very implausible. Especially the Christian one. And we live, well at least the lucky ones, in a secular society that does not legislate based on the wishes or rights of imaginary beings.

Do you have other arguments against abortion that do not rely on things that dont have a shred of evidence for their existence?

Ciao

- viole

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Youre killing something thats living. At 8weeks my baby has a heart beat. Again, if we have concern and value for animals how much more value should a living being that will eventually become a human being have?

Loosestrife said:

Youre killing something thats living. At 8weeks my baby has a heart beat. Again, if we have concern and value for animals how much more value should a living being that will eventually become a human being have?

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A heart beat is a pretty low standard. Even shrimp having beating hearts. Yes, we do have concern for animals. But if you are going to decry the death of a fetus through abortion then the shrimping industry should drive you insane by those standards.

I would not want to have a loved one of mine have an abortion, but I am not standing in one's way if they feel it is necessary. If one wants to claim that a fetus has the rights of a human being the burden of proof is currently upon those opposing abortion. And the opponents do not seem to be able to come up with a viable reason at all to ban abortion.

Subduction Zone said:

A heart beat is a pretty low standard. Even shrimp having beating hearts. Yes, we do have concern for animals. But if you are going to decry the death of a fetus through abortion then the shrimping industry should drive you insane by those standards.

I would not want to have a loved one of mine have an abortion, but I am not standing in one's way if they feel it is necessary. If one wants to claim that a fetus has the rights of a human being the burden of proof is currently upon those opposing abortion. And the opponents do not seem to be able to come up with a viable reason at all to ban abortion.

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I didn't say I was standing in anyones way. These are my personal reasons. I never said I wanted to ban abortion because people will do what they want anyway and find ways around it to get what they want. I also wouldn't want a child being abused or neglected because the parent wasn't responsible enough to close their legs. Not right. Also why preserve the life of some animals but not being that will eventually become human?

Loosestrife said:

I didn't say I was standing in anyones way. These are my personal reasons. I never said I wanted to ban abortion because people will do what they want anyway and find ways around it to get what they want. I also wouldn't want a child being abused or neglected because the parent wasn't responsible enough to close their legs. Not right. Also why preserve the life of some animals but not being that will eventually become human?

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Let's deal with your last claim first. It is rather vague. We will tend to protect species. Protecting a species is not the same as protecting an animal. A species is much greater than a single individual. So that is not a fair comparison. When it comes to animals that we eat avoiding cruelty is to be expected. Even if they are not human they can feel pain and inflicting unneeded pain is always immoral. I really do not see how your argument even applies.

And let's not have any nonsense about "closing ones legs". One of the strongest drives that we have is the drive to have sex. Sex is going to happen. If you are truly anti-abortion then you should be doing everything in your power to supply not only contraceptives to anyone that needs them but instructions on how to use them properly. Are you for that? Are you for teaching school children how to properly use a condom?

And if you do not want to have an abortion the solution is simple. Don't have one. But you are hardly in a position to judge those that feel the need. Do your best to avoid them, that is fine. Support contraceptives and education. That is the most effective way to lower the number of abortions needed.

Loosestrife said:

Youre killing something thats living. At 8weeks my baby has a heart beat. Again, if we have concern and value for animals how much more value should a living being that will eventually become a human being have?

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First off: i don’t care if cats, dogs and cows, among others, abort their embryos. So, I am not sure what you mean with me having consideration for animals.

Ok then, what about a one hour old embryo? No heart, no breath, no nervous system, no nothing. Just a bunch of duplicating cells, that you will have problems to distinguish from the ones of an amoeba.

Is it ok to abort that? If not, why not? And why did you not use those more general reasons, if any, for the 8 weeks case too?

Btw, 8 weeks is the limit in Sweden for allowing abortion.

Ciao

- viole

Loosestrife said:

Youre killing something thats living. At 8weeks my baby has a heart beat. Again, if we have concern and value for animals how much more value should a living being that will eventually become a human being have?

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Denying someone the organs they need to live certainly "kills something that's living," but we allow people to choose to let their life-saving organs rot in the ground instead of using them to save a life... for any reason or no reason.

The bodily security of a corpse trumps everyone else's right to life.

Don't you think that a pregnant person should at least be entitled to the rights we grant to corpses?

Loosestrife said:

I didn't say I was standing in anyones way. These are my personal reasons. I never said I wanted to ban abortion because people will do what they want anyway and find ways around it to get what they want.

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Then you're pro-choice. Glad to hear it.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Bodily security is widely upheld as a right, though it's often referred to in different terms:

Bodily integrity - Wikipedia

Security of person - Wikipedia

Even in jurisdictions that don't explicitly mention bodily security in its laws (e.g. the US), the principle still usually is reflected in the laws: even in the US, nobody's compelled to donate their organs, tissue, or bodily fluids, and it's illegal to subject someone to surgery or medical testing without their consent.

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So... in other words, what you are saying it is against a woman's 'right' to bodily security to perform an abortion upon her without her consent. Similarly, a person is not allowed to cut her arm off without her consent. I think that's more or less true but...

This leaves open the question of whether or not it is acceptable to abort her fetus or cut off her arm provided that she does give consent.

Ponder This said:

So... in other words, what you are saying it is against a woman's 'right' to bodily security to perform an abortion upon her without her consent. Similarly, a person is not allowed to cut her arm off without her consent. I think that's more or less true but...

This leaves open the question of whether or not it is acceptable to abort her fetus or cut off her arm provided that she does give consent.

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It means that growing another human being inside her requires her continued consent, and that she has the right at all points in the pregnancy to end or continue the pregnancy.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

It means that growing another human being inside her requires her continued consent, and that she has the right at all points in the pregnancy to end or continue the pregnancy.

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You like the organ comparison. So let's examine your statement. Let's say she says, "I want you to cut off my arm."
The natural question question is: "Why?"

If the answer is: "Because I want to donate my arm to so-and-so", then we might praise her generosity... she's even willing to give up her arm (!) for another person.

But if the answer is: "I just don't want my arm anymore. I want to throw it in the garbage and never see it again", then we are likely to question her sanity. Is there something wrong with her?

So this notion that the fetus is a 'person' that is invading her body, is something that needs to be examined, because it is actually perfectly natural for her body to sustain the fetus. It's not abnormal that it do so, just as it is not abnormal to have an arm. How do you justify the abortion?

Up to the woman.

Loosestrife said:

Im not throwing away anyone's choice. Everyone has free will. I can't make anyone do anything but I do believe in God and I believe terminating life in the womb is playing God in a way. No one has the right to take life except him and every action has a consequence.

I only sympathize with those that were abused ( raped or were molested at a young age) who see abortion as an out...but a party girl who had a little too much fun and uses abortion as a form of birth control.. I can't muster empathy for.
I feel they should take responsibility for their actions, being loose and not using protection. At the very least consider adoption I think.

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Playing God?
So you are against life support, right?

I often hear the "playing God" card when it comes to shutting off life support, but the fact is, putting them on life support is the "playing God" part.

Ponder This said:

You like the organ comparison. So let's examine your statement. Let's say she says, "I want you to cut off my arm."
The natural question question is: "Why?"

If the answer is: "Because I want to donate my arm to so-and-so", then we might praise her generosity... she's even willing to give up her arm (!) for another person.

But if the answer is: "I just don't want my arm anymore. I want to throw it in the garbage and never see it again", then we are likely to question her sanity. Is there something wrong with her?

So this notion that the fetus is a 'person' that is invading her body, is something that needs to be examined, because it is actually perfectly natural for her body to sustain the fetus. It's not abnormal that it do so, just as it is not abnormal to have an arm. How do you justify the abortion?

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Except the reason a Dr wont cut off a perfectly good arm is do to liability, not morality.

I do not speak for anyone except myself, but your reply above is in no way a counter to bodily autonomy.
As has already been stated in this very thread, bodily autonomy even applies to corpse.
So why is it you think that a fetus should be exempt?

Abortion is going to happen; it’s always happened. The gray area surrounding the issue cannot be resolved through black-and-white thinking/remedies. Abortion needs to be kept safe and legal.

Mestemia said:

Except the reason a Dr wont cut off a perfectly good arm is do to liability, not morality.

I do not speak for anyone except myself, but your reply above is in no way a counter to bodily autonomy.
As has already been stated in this very thread, bodily autonomy even applies to corpse.
So why is it you think that a fetus should be exempt?

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I don't understand your question. The justification for abortion was Security of Body. I pointed out that this is obviously not a justification for abortion, but is rather a reason people can't simply perform abortions on whomever they want. What exactly is the fetus 'exempt' from? Removal from a corpse?

Ponder This said:

I don't understand your question. The justification for abortion was Security of Body. I pointed out that this is obviously not a justification for abortion, but is rather a reason people can't simply perform abortions on whomever they want. What exactly is the fetus 'exempt' from? Removal from a corpse?

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Yes, you made the bold empty claim that it is "obvious".
This very thread shows it is not nearly as "obvious" as you claim.

My question is that you want a fetus to be exempt from Bodily autonomy.
I simply ask why.

Alex Schwartz said:

Explain your reasoning

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I think it is same as if one would kill his neighbor to get better next year. I don’t think people have right to murder.