Biblical Slavery - How Could A Loving God Condone It?

BilliardsBall said:

You don't support the current holocaust/genocide of babies?! I don't--I've put a LOT of time and money in helping unwed mothers (and wed parents, too).

YOU are pro life, not pro choice? I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.

My objection stands: You have no right to discuss an alleged Bible genocide (Do you believe Exodus? Do you believe Israelites ACTUALLY invaded Canaan to commit genocide circa 1450 BCE?) before explaining why murdering babies for the purpose of "convenience" is "fine".

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It's amazing that you still cannot answer the questions that address your own morality. Why are you so afraid to elucidate your Biblical view of morality?

I've already pointed out at least twice now that it doesn't matter if I believe that there was an actual genocide, as described in the Bible. Because YOU believe the Bible is the infallible word of God and according to what the Bible says, the God you worship commanded the genocide. Why are you still using that as an objection?? This has been pointed out to you several times, by more than one poster.

I'm pro-life and pro-choice. Everybody is pro-life, save for serial killers and murderers. I don't know what you mean by holocaust/genocide, in regards to abortion. And no where have I ever said that "murdering babies for convenience is fine," nor do I believe that. So instead of putting words in my mouth yet again, how about addressing YOUR views.

BilliardsBall said:

You are saying that Buddhism is more logical/rational/loving (can't really tell what you're saying) then Christianity, which teaches how Christ expiates sin, judgment and pure love in the Cross?

This makes more sense:

"If god were real and just we would have no evil in the world - either in god's name or against each other"

Does your proposal allow for a Satan? Demons? Human sin? Entropy? If entropy is a natural law, why are you upset that humans tend toward it? If evolution is real but God isn't, since evolution thrives on new generations, mutations and death, why does death bother you?

And if death bothers you that much, have you responded to it or to a higher power?

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Why do you think that people who accept evolution base their morality and/or worldview entirely upon it? It's strange to me.

BilliardsBall said:

Good question: "Why does God sometimes save, sometimes judge?"

Sounds like some Bible reading is in order.

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Cool. Come back to me when you have done it. All this seems very ad-hoc to me.

Ciao

- viole

BilliardsBall said:

You are saying that Buddhism is more logical/rational/loving (can't really tell what you're saying) then Christianity, which teaches how Christ expiates sin, judgment and pure love in the Cross?

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I am saying Buddhism does not invoke a god

BilliardsBall said:

Does your proposal allow for a Satan? Demons? Human sin? Entropy? If entropy is a natural law, why are you upset that humans tend toward it? If evolution is real but God isn't, since evolution thrives on new generations, mutations and death, why does death bother you?

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Satan is a figment of people's imagination - it exists only as much as Batman does - in people's fertile imagination

How do you conclude I am upset about entropy?

How do you conclude "death bothers me"?

You are reading things into my straight forward writing, that are not there - no wonder you also believe in a quasi history book that also has fairy tales in it

SkepticThinker said:

It's amazing that you still cannot answer the questions that address your own morality. Why are you so afraid to elucidate your Biblical view of morality?

I've already pointed out at least twice now that it doesn't matter if I believe that there was an actual genocide, as described in the Bible. Because YOU believe the Bible is the infallible word of God and according to what the Bible says, the God you worship commanded the genocide. Why are you still using that as an objection?? This has been pointed out to you several times, by more than one poster.

I'm pro-life and pro-choice. Everybody is pro-life, save for serial killers and murderers. I don't know what you mean by holocaust/genocide, in regards to abortion. And no where have I ever said that "murdering babies for convenience is fine," nor do I believe that. So instead of putting words in my mouth yet again, how about addressing YOUR views.

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I have no problem with God's ordering a just war, capital punishment, or really, anything. God put down EVERYONE except 8 people in the Flood, including infants.

If, however, you feel abortion on demand should remain legal, you ARE for murdering babies for convenience IMHO.

ManSinha said:

I am saying Buddhism does not invoke a god



Satan is a figment of people's imagination - it exists only as much as Batman does - in people's fertile imagination

How do you conclude I am upset about entropy?

How do you conclude "death bothers me"?

You are reading things into my straight forward writing, that are not there - no wonder you also believe in a quasi history book that also has fairy tales in it

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If there is no Satan or demons, explain the Holocaust! Is that because "people are essentially good"?!

BilliardsBall said:

I have no problem with God's ordering a just war, capital punishment, or really, anything. God put down EVERYONE except 8 people in the Flood, including infants.

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So you are okay with genocide, as long as you believe God said it's okay? Then it's as I said, you are an amoral actor, in that you aren't exercising morality at all, rather you are just following orders and doing what you're told, assuming that what you're told is the moral thing to do.

May I ask why you think such a command would be moral? And why must God have human beings carry out such acts for him, when as you say, he is perfectly capable of carrying out such actions himself (as in the flood)? Don't you think it's weird that your God commands people not to kill in his Commandments, and then turns around and tells them to kill entire populations of people INCLUDING babies and children?

BilliardsBall said:

If, however, you feel abortion on demand should remain legal, you ARE for murdering babies for convenience IMHO.

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Well, then you'd be wrong.

BilliardsBall said:

If there is no Satan or demons, explain the Holocaust! Is that because "people are essentially good"?!

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Why would you need to invoke/invent demons or satan to explain the Holocaust? All you need is a bad leader and a bunch of people who are willing to blindly follow orders.

BilliardsBall said:

If there is no Satan or demons, explain the Holocaust! Is that because "people are essentially good"?!

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I never said all people are "good" - evil exists because of people's vices / prejudices / greed / blind faith among other things

One does not have to go inventing a bogeyman for it

Some people are predominantly evil just as others are overwhelmingly good

Did you hear one too many fairytales as a child - I only ask because you still seem to be trotting that out as an excuse for the faults of some humans

SkepticThinker said:

So you are okay with genocide, as long as you believe God said it's okay? Then it's as I said, you are an amoral actor, in that you aren't exercising morality at all, rather you are just following orders and doing what you're told, assuming that what you're told is the moral thing to do.

May I ask why you think such a command would be moral? And why must God have human beings carry out such acts for him, when as you say, he is perfectly capable of carrying out such actions himself (as in the flood)? Don't you think it's weird that your God commands people not to kill in his Commandments, and then turns around and tells them to kill entire populations of people INCLUDING babies and children?

Well, then you'd be wrong.

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Jesus spoke of having faith like a child. His very name means "The mighty God who saves." When I ask Jesus to be a moral agent, He gives guidance, and saves IMHO. I've yet to kill my first infidel.

And I do understand BIBLE morals--God commands people to not MURDER, but also performs capital punishment (the Flood, Sodom) and demands capital punishment from righteous society. If you don't understand the simplest commands of the decalogue (do not murder), how can you debate with me finer law points... or morality?

SkepticThinker said:

Why would you need to invoke/invent demons or satan to explain the Holocaust? All you need is a bad leader and a bunch of people who are willing to blindly follow orders.

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Wow, THERE'S a statement to unpack!

The people who killed 1/3 to 1/2 of my race in recent, living memory, were all BLINDLY FOLLOWING ORDERS. I guess Spandau Prison and the Nuremberg Trials were mistakes, then, built by people BLINDLY FOLLOWING ORDERS.

And the abortionist doctors who break their oaths to protect life are BLINDLY FOLLOWING mothers' ORDERS.

ManSinha said:

I never said all people are "good" - evil exists because of people's vices / prejudices / greed / blind faith among other things

One does not have to go inventing a bogeyman for it

Some people are predominantly evil just as others are overwhelmingly good

Did you hear one too many fairytales as a child - I only ask because you still seem to be trotting that out as an excuse for the faults of some humans

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I am having trouble figuring out why you keep sinning in your comments on this thread.

BilliardsBall said:

Jesus spoke of having faith like a child. His very name means "The mighty God who saves." When I ask Jesus to be a moral agent, He gives guidance, and saves IMHO. I've yet to kill my first infidel.

And I do understand BIBLE morals--God commands people to not MURDER, but also performs capital punishment (the Flood, Sodom) and demands capital punishment from righteous society. If you don't understand the simplest commands of the decalogue (do not murder), how can you debate with me finer law points... or morality?

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Neither the Flood or Sodom and Gomorrah are historical. S and G were destroyed long before the time of Lot and Abraham. They are morality tales.. fiction.

BilliardsBall said:

Wow, THERE'S a statement to unpack!

The people who killed 1/3 to 1/2 of my race in recent, living memory, were all BLINDLY FOLLOWING ORDERS. I guess Spandau Prison and the Nuremberg Trials were mistakes, then, built by people BLINDLY FOLLOWING ORDERS.

And the abortionist doctors who break their oaths to protect life are BLINDLY FOLLOWING mothers' ORDERS.

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I have never seen an abortion doctor break his oath. And you misunderstood his post. There is no need to invoke a mythical being to explain the holocaust. Why was that so hard to understand?

BilliardsBall said:

Wow, THERE'S a statement to unpack!

The people who killed 1/3 to 1/2 of my race in recent, living memory, were all BLINDLY FOLLOWING ORDERS. I guess Spandau Prison and the Nuremberg Trials were mistakes, then, built by people BLINDLY FOLLOWING ORDERS.

And the abortionist doctors who break their oaths to protect life are BLINDLY FOLLOWING mothers' ORDERS.

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There's no such thing as demons or Satan..

OP...all man-made. Anything goes.

BilliardsBall said:

Wow, THERE'S a statement to unpack!

The people who killed 1/3 to 1/2 of my race in recent, living memory, were all BLINDLY FOLLOWING ORDERS. I guess Spandau Prison and the Nuremberg Trials were mistakes, then, built by people BLINDLY FOLLOWING ORDERS.

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As another poster pointed out for me, "there is no need to invoke a mythical being to explain the holocaust." That was where I was going with that.

Anyway ...

That was a huge part of the Nuremberg Trials. Haven't you heard of the Nuremberg/Superior Orders defense?

Superior orders - Wikipedia

BilliardsBall said:

And the abortionist doctors who break their oaths to protect life are BLINDLY FOLLOWING mothers' ORDERS.

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Sorry, what? How did you get to that?

You appear to have a very simplistic view of abortion. It's obvious you are desperate to make it a part of the conversation though.

BilliardsBall said:

Jesus spoke of having faith like a child. His very name means "The mighty God who saves." When I ask Jesus to be a moral agent, He gives guidance, and saves IMHO. I've yet to kill my first infidel.

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Okay, so you agree with me that you are an amoral agent in all of this. You're doing what you think somebody else tells you is the moral thing to do.

So where can we find Jesus and ask him this stuff? And why do we assume that whatever he says is moral? 'Cause, I don' think dashing babies' heads against rocks is a moral action.

All of this brings up a question in my mind .... If you thought Jesus asked you to kill your own child, would you do it?

And another question ... Lots of people carry out actions because they think it's what God wants from them or told them to do (i.e. it's the moral thing to do). Some of these acts are terrible, and some are wonderful, and everything in between. The question is, how can you tell which ones are commands from Gods and which ones aren't? Obviously I don't think anyone is getting commands from God. Rather, I think people project their own views onto Gods in order to justify their actions. But you do not. You think Jesus "gives guidance." So how do we tell what is the actual "guidance" and what isn't?
If a woman says that God wanted her to drown her 5 children in the bathtub, how can you know if God did actually command such a thing or if she's crazy, or something else?
And what do we make of people from other religions claiming that God(s) wants them to do things?

Do you see my dilemma?

BilliardsBall said:

And I do understand BIBLE morals--God commands people to not MURDER, but also performs capital punishment (the Flood, Sodom) and demands capital punishment from righteous society. If you don't understand the simplest commands of the decalogue (do not murder), how can you debate with me finer law points... or morality?

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So now we're referring to commands from God to commit genocide, including the mass murder of BABIES, as "capital punishment?" Great euphemism you've come up with there. This is why I think apologetics are gross.

Subduction Zone said:

I have never seen an abortion doctor break his oath. And you misunderstood his post. There is no need to invoke a mythical being to explain the holocaust. Why was that so hard to understand?

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Thank you!

BilliardsBall said:

I am having trouble figuring out why you keep sinning in your comments on this thread.

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And that is it - judgment based on comments made in a thread - keep advocating that - let us see how many adherents your version of belief has - prove to me that my comments are a sin using common sense arguments that are not mired in biblical gobbledegook -

Simple truth is you have been outflanked and out argued by most everyone on this thread that cares to respond to your rantings. And that is your final refuge - threatening or accusing me of "sin" - what makes your action any different from those that conducted the Inquisition? We would try them for crimes against humanity today.

And you call yourself a bible follower? Is this what your version of Judanity tells you to do? I think you are having a lot more trouble than merely "figuring out" my comments.

Where is your adherence to

Matthew 22:39

and to

John 8:7

as far as I am concerned - you are - well never mind - my religion teaches one to be more polite than that .......