Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
Prophet Muhammed said him self that there is 3 other reasons before even thinking of defending with force. So if they jump to the last option first, then they are not following the prophet Muhammeds own words.
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Jihad is not what you think it is
- Thread starter Spirit of Light
- Start date
Muhammad himself achieved much of what he did by winning battles. And his successors established Islamic civilization by much the same way, winning battles. Pointing that out is not a condemnation of Islam per se, any more than it is a condemnation of the Romans to point out that they too were really good at winning battles.
There are two false narratives. The first is the claim that the deranged violence of various jihadist groups represents mainstream Islamic orthodoxy. To my understanding Salafism and Wahhabism are actually fairly recent developments. They're products of the modern world, rather than classical Islamic civilization.
The second false narrative concerns the whitewashing of Islamic beliefs and history. Much like claiming that jihad is principally concerned with 'inner struggle'. Sorry, but it does mean holy war, for the purpose of expanding Islamic civilization. And in the case of Sunni Islam, there is no requirement that jihads be defensive. Sunni Islam didn't become the world's largest religious sect by fighting only defensive battles.
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To be clear, the 'child abuse' comment was not in any way aimed at Muhammed or Islam. The leading Catholic in Australia was recently gaoled for child abuse.
My point was that whether or not Muhammed meant jihad as an internal struggle or in a more physical sense, where Muslims decide the struggle is physical, they should be called out on it.
I don't care if a person's interpretation of Islam is 'correct'. I care what they are motivated to do based on that interpretation.
Rounding back to my example, Jesus didn't tell people to hide child abusers, yet some Christians have done so, in the belief that protecting the Church is the right thing to do, based on their beliefs. People's interpretation of a messiahs message can be problematic, and can be varied. Focusing on what the 'right' interpretation is doesn't really help with that.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
The fall of morality and the abuse go hand in hand. people who do wrong toward others lack good morality
You're making one heck of an assumption there, by conflating morality with 'correct' religious interpretation.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
After more then 20 years as a buddhist i learned a lot about what it take to be morally good human being.
After more than 20 years as a human, so have I.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
It is the Sunnis who consider the said hadith unreliable, while the Shias consider it reliable. So do the Ahmeddiya sect of Islam, which focusses and emphasizes on scholarship and nonviolence. The only muslim nobel prize winner in the sciences, Abdus Salam, is an Ahmeddiya.
Imo, it is the Sunnis who seem to be the most violent of all the Islamic sects, and they are known for their attacks on the liberal Sufis, Shias and Ahmediyas as well.
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This is the motto of the Muslim brotherhood,this is what they think it is.
Allah is our objective; the Prophet is our leader; the Quran is our law; Jihad is our way; dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope." So goes the motto of the Muslim Brotherhood.
And we're supposed to believe you, why????
Firemorphic
Activist Membrane
"Muslim Brotherhood"
Yeah, anything with the word with "Muslim" or "Islamic" in the title is taken to be "Muslim" or "Islamic" at face value. The "Nation Of Islam", the "Islamic Renovations Committee", "The Islamic Prayer Exchange Society", "The Islamic Representatives Of The Republic Of Atlantis" and "The Muslim International Haircare Establishment".
Firemorphic
Activist Membrane
"Hadiths" are sayings, quotes, reaccounts of events.
Aside from the Qur'an, we have Hadith Collections, which are compilations of sayings of greatly varying authenticity.
Sunnis generally read from completely different Hadith Collections than us Shi'ites.
Generally, the central Hadith Collection of Sunnis is considered to be "Sahih Bukhari" (which has some dodgy stuff in it to say the least, some of which have become internet memes........)
The central Hadith Collection of us Shi'ites is "Kitab Al-Kafi" (which has a lot of philosophy in it that would appeal to Dharmic people).
But both collections are the tip of a massive iceberg (there are around 40 generally known Hadith collections, in general, which would add up to several billion pages and years and years and years of studying) and neither Sunnism nor Shi'ism rely entirely on a single Hadith collection (it'd be foolish to do so). It's not an idle topic within Sunnism or Shi'ism, it's often debated heatedly amongst ourselves.
Neither of us (Sunnis or Shi'ites) are wandering blindly around in the dark though, early on we both developed our own Scientific methods (literally each Hadith has requirements to be accepted and must face theological scrutiny as well as pass logical deduction) for verifying what Hadiths can and cannot be trusted as an authentic reference for both History and Theology.
There are "Qur'an-only Muslims" yes, who only read the Qur'an, no Hadith. I've flirted with it myself, and while I am Qur'an-centric, Shi'ism is wholeheartly my path (and it's focused a lot on philosophy and Esotericism, so much that I have no need for Sufism).
Yeah, the Ahmadiyya are a different beast all-together. They're like Baha'i's in a lot of ways but they (unlike Baha'i's) still consider the Qur'an central authority. However, as far as I know, they follow the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad more than any Hadith collections (which is more preliminary). Ahamadiyya's are practically just "Post-Sunni".
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Nice try but I think you'll find the mb are a lot more serious than that.
No your not supposed to believe me I'm not the author,Hassan Al banna was the founder of the Muslim brotherhood,the most powerful and largest Islamic organisation in the world,it's easy to find these quote on their website.
All Muslims Must Make Jihad
Jihad is an obligation from Allah on every Muslim and cannot be ignored nor evaded. Allah has ascribed great importance to jihad and has made the reward of the martyrs and the fighters in His way a splendid one. Only those who have acted similarly and who have modeled themselves upon the martyrs in their performance of jihad can join them in this reward. Furthermore, Allah has specifically honoured the Mujahideen {those who wage jihad} with certain exceptional qualities, both spiritual and practical, to benefit them in this world and the next. Their pure blood is a symbol of victory in this world and the mark of success and felicity in the world to come
Well then why can't you provide a link to the quote????? From a Muslim source, please, not from one of these stupid Islamophobe websites!!
9-18-1
Active Member
This is true - but this doesn't discount the reality that what jihad once meant, is no longer how it is understood today from an institutional point of view. In fact, there are two forms of jihad: the greater (inner) and the lesser (outer) - so military jihad warfare is still a part of Islam. The problem is jihad itself: people will associate inner problems as having external sources. When this confusion happens, jihad is waged against innocent people simply because the Muslim suffers something within themselves. This is the fundamental pathology of Islam and why it degenerated into endless war, war, war. Almost 700 000 000 people since ~620AD are dead as a result of this ideology.
In fact, this is dangerous: risking apologizing for Islam on such grounds will only empower the "jihadists" more and would be exploited (as it already is). You have endless groups "they're not real Muslims!" while the others repeat the same.
The fact of the matter is: the Qur'an is man-made, as is the religion of Islam (the same is true for the Abrahamic pantheon itself). This problem alone is far greater than what words used to mean in comparison to how they are used today. For example Muslims generally do not read the books of Moses and don't even know the name of the creator god Moses uses to denote how creation happens. It is not the same as "Allah", neither equivalent.
Ok cool,Hamas has his writing in their covenant,they are definitely Muslim but probably still not good enough for an apologist.
The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988
Augustus
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From Islam Q&A, a popular, albeit Wahhabi site:
Praise be to Allaah.
Allaah has enjoined jihad for His sake upon the Muslims, for the great benefits that result from that and because of the harm caused by abandoning jihad, some of which are mentioned in Question no. 34830.
Some of the reasons why jihad for the sake of Allaah is prescribed in Islam are as follows:
1 – The main goal of jihad is to make the people worship Allaah alone and to bring them forth from servitude to people to servitude to the Lord of people. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allaah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zaalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers)”
[al-Baqarah 2:193]
“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allaah), then certainly, Allaah is All-Seer of what they do”
[al-Anfaal 8:39]
Ibn Jareer said:
So fight them until there is no more shirk, and none is worshipped except Allaah alone with no partner or associate, and trials and calamities, which are disbelief and polytheism, are lifted from the slaves of Allaah on earth, and religion is all for Allaah alone, and so that obedience and worship will be devoted to Him alone and none else.
Ibn Katheer said: Allaah commands us to fight the kuffaar so that there will be no fitnah, i.e., shirk, and the religion will all be for Allaah alone, i.e., the religion of Allaah will prevail over all other religions.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “"I have been commanded (by Allaah) to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and they establish regular prayer and pay zakaah, then if they do that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning will be with Allaah." Narrated by al-Bukhaari (24), Muslim (33).
And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been sent just before the Hour with the sword, so that Allaah will be worshipped alone with no partner or associate.”
Narrated by Ahmad, 4869; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2831.
This purpose of jihad was present in the minds of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) during their battles with the enemies of Allaah. Al-Bukhaari (2925) narrated that Jubayr ibn Hayyah said: ‘Umar sent people to all the regions to fight the mushrikeen… so ‘Umar recruited us and appointed al-Nu’maan ibn Muqarrin to lead us. When we were in the land of the enemy, the representative of Chosroes came out to us with forty thousand troops. An interpreter stood up and said: “Let one of you speak to me.” Al-Mugheerah said: “Ask whatever you want.” He asked, “Who are you?” He (al-Mugheerah) said: “We are some people from among the Arabs. We used to lead a harsh and miserable life, sucking on animal skins and date stones because of hunger, wearing clothes made of camel and goat hair, worshipping trees and rocks. While we were in this state, the Lord of the heavens and the earth, exalted be His name and glorified be His greatness, sent to us a Prophet from amongst ourselves, whose father and mother we know. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), commanded us to fight you until you worship Allaah alone or pay the jizyah. Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us the message from our Lord, that whoever among us is killed will go to Paradise to enjoy delights such as no one has ever seen, and whoever among us is left will become your master.”
This is the truth that the Sahaabah and leaders of the Muslims proclaimed in their military campaigns.
Rab’i ibn ‘Aamir said, when Rustam the commander of the Persian armies asked him, “Why have you come?”: “Allaah has sent us to bring forth whomsoever He wills from the worship of man to the worship of Allaah.
When ‘Uqbah ibn Naafi’ reached Tangiers, he rode his horse into the water until the water was up to its chest, then he said: “O Allaah, bear witness that I have done my utmost, and were it not for this sea I would have travelled throughout the land fighting those who disbelieve in You, until none is worshipped except You.”
2 – Repelling the aggression of those who attack the Muslims.
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3 – Removing fitnah (tribulation)
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4 – Protecting the Islamic state from the evil of the kuffaar.
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5 – Frightening the kuffaar, humiliating them and putting them to shame.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Fight against them so that Allaah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people,
And remove the anger of their (believers’) hearts. Allaah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allaah is All-Knowing, All-Wise”
[al-Tawbah 9:14-15]
“And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war (tanks, planes, missiles, artillery) to threaten the enemy of Allaah and your enemy”
[al-Anfaal 8:60]
Hence it is prescribed to fight in a manner that will strike terror into the heart of the enemy.
Shaykh al-Islam [Ibn Taymiyah – may Allaah have mercy on him] was asked whether it is permissible for a soldier to wear silk or gold or silver when fighting or when the envoys of the enemy come to the Muslims.
He replied:
Praise be to Allaah. With regard to wearing silk in order to frighten the enemy, there are two scholarly views, the more correct of which is that it is allowed. The soldiers of Syria wrote to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab saying: “When we met the enemy we saw that they had covered their weapons with silk and we found that this struck terror in our hearts.” ‘Umar wrote back to them saying: “You should cover your weapons as they do.” And wearing silk is a kind of showing off, and Allaah likes showing off at the time of fighting, as it is narrated in al-Sunan that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is a kind of showing off that Allaah likes, and a kind of showing off that Allaah hates. The showing off that Allaah likes is when a man shows off at the time of war. The kind of showing off that Allaah hates is showing off for the purpose of pride and boasting.” On the day of Uhud, Abu Dujaanah al-Ansaari showed off among the ranks, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “This is a kind of walking that Allaah hates except in this situation.” Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 28/17
6 – Exposing the hypocrites
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7 – Purifying the believers of their sins and ridding them thereof
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8 – Acquiring booty
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9 – Taking martyrs.
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10 – Ridding the world of corruption.
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Al-Sa’di said: The world would be corrupted if the kuffaar and evildoers were to prevail.
These are some of the reasons why jihad is prescribed.
We ask Allaah to bring the Muslims back to their religion. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad.
The reason why jihaad is prescribed - Islam Question & Answer