All's fair in love and proselytizing

Vinayaka · Apr 3, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
I think each case should be judged on its own merits because it would be unfair to paint everyone with the same brush as people do with Muslims. It’s also possible genuineness and sincerity can be misunderstood as being deceptive I don’t know but before I became a Baha’i I mistrusted Baha’is too but when I finally understood what they were trying to tell me I realise now how wrong I was and that they in fact gave me a gift greater than life and asked for nothing in return.

It took me years before I understood the true motive of Baha’is and when I did find out I realised it wasn’t what I at first suspected. It was very sincere but I had been so used to being deceived that I lost all belief that sincerity and genuineness existed on the planet anymore and was always suspicious of them. Buto of course we have faults and shortcomings and nobody is denying that.

I concur as to individuality, and I've learned a lot about Baha'i individuality here. I don't think all that many people make sweeping generalisations about a billion people, but I could be wrong. You're making a sweeping generalisation about people of your own faith in 'the true motive of Baha'is'. Most certainly I've found adherents of your faith to have differing motives.

You yourself have admitted several times to have been a victim of friendship evangelism, and insinuated from that that only the Baha'is would have helped you in your moment of need. Personally, I see that as more just coincidence, and suspect lots of people would have helped you, but for whatever reason, it didn't happen. Most social services here in Canada are governmental, or non-denominational.

BilliardsBall · Apr 3, 2019

siti said:
OK - so you have a strong religious faith that you wholeheartedly believe would benefit everyone to know about...like Peter and John in the Book of Acts you simply "cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard" (Acts of the Apostles 4:20). You sincerely believe that "necessity is laid upon me" and "woe is unto me if I preach not the Gospel" (1 Corinthians 9:16,17)...

So you have a life-enhancing message that you feel obligated to share. Only one problem - most people don't want to hear it. But surely that's because they don't know how precious a gift you have to share with them. So how to get a "foot in the door" as it were? Well if you have been taught to evangelize, you probably know that "finding common ground" is a key to opening up a conversation. But what if there isn't any? Is it OK to pretend?

Maybe Paul thought so - he did, after all, say that he was "made all things to all men" in order that he might "save some". (He never actually said he was "a Greek to the Greeks" as far as I know but that's the idea). (1 Corinthians 9:20-22).

Anyway, the question is - if common ground (in terms of beliefs) is not there, is it OK either to pretend it is or even to invent common ground - "become a Greek to the Greeks" as it were - in order to achieve the overriding goal of "saving" (at least some of) your audience?

E.g. when a JW is confronted with the question "are you saved?" by an evangelical Christian, should they just say "yes" when they know very well that what the evangelical means by "saved" is very different from what they believe. When a Baha'i is confronted with a question about whether they believe in Jesus as the Son of God, is it OK to just say "yes" when they know very well that what the questioner means by "Son of God" is very different from their own interpretation of that phrase...I suppose there are very many examples...

There's an old saying "all's fair in love and sales" (its also the title of a fairly recent book about successful selling) - but finding common ground is very definitely a tried and tested sales technique. Is that what it is when it is done in a religious discussion? Is the motivation for presenting "less than completely candid" information about one's religious beliefs the good of the hearer - or sales? Is it to "snatch a log from the fire" and "gain a brother" - as it were - or is it just to count another convert? And, either way, is it honest? Is it acceptable to be dishonest in presenting our religious beliefs? Is it "love" or merely another proselytizing technique?

We all have common ground, even atheists--if eternal life is free, and real--only a fool would pass it by. People liked to be asked questions, so when I proselytize individuals (outside RF of course), I ask, "Can I ask you a question?" and when they say "Sure!" I ask:

"Are you like me, in that you are morally imperfect?"

"Sure, no one's perfect," is the usual response.

"That's a problem, logically, because if there's a Heaven or utopia after this world, we cannot be there!"

...And we go from there. So doing, I've had many atheists say, "I don't want to be a Christian now, but I do agree--people make dystopias and cannot enter a utopia with the kind of transformation you're speaking of..."

InvestigateTruth · Apr 3, 2019

siti said:
OK - so you have a strong religious faith that you wholeheartedly believe would benefit everyone to know about...like Peter and John in the Book of Acts you simply "cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard" (Acts of the Apostles 4:20). You sincerely believe that "necessity is laid upon me" and "woe is unto me if I preach not the Gospel" (1 Corinthians 9:16,17)...

So you have a life-enhancing message that you feel obligated to share. Only one problem - most people don't want to hear it. But surely that's because they don't know how precious a gift you have to share with them. So how to get a "foot in the door" as it were? Well if you have been taught to evangelize, you probably know that "finding common ground" is a key to opening up a conversation. But what if there isn't any? Is it OK to pretend?

Maybe Paul thought so - he did, after all, say that he was "made all things to all men" in order that he might "save some". (He never actually said he was "a Greek to the Greeks" as far as I know but that's the idea). (1 Corinthians 9:20-22).

Anyway, the question is - if common ground (in terms of beliefs) is not there, is it OK either to pretend it is or even to invent common ground - "become a Greek to the Greeks" as it were - in order to achieve the overriding goal of "saving" (at least some of) your audience?

E.g. when a JW is confronted with the question "are you saved?" by an evangelical Christian, should they just say "yes" when they know very well that what the evangelical means by "saved" is very different from what they believe. When a Baha'i is confronted with a question about whether they believe in Jesus as the Son of God, is it OK to just say "yes" when they know very well that what the questioner means by "Son of God" is very different from their own interpretation of that phrase...I suppose there are very many examples...

There's an old saying "all's fair in love and sales" (its also the title of a fairly recent book about successful selling) - but finding common ground is very definitely a tried and tested sales technique. Is that what it is when it is done in a religious discussion? Is the motivation for presenting "less than completely candid" information about one's religious beliefs the good of the hearer - or sales? Is it to "snatch a log from the fire" and "gain a brother" - as it were - or is it just to count another convert? And, either way, is it honest? Is it acceptable to be dishonest in presenting our religious beliefs? Is it "love" or merely another proselytizing technique?

Do you think, most atheists became atheist as a result of advertising atheism by other atheists, or they alone figured it out? If they had an effect on you to convert you from Christianity to Atheism, do you blame the atheists for proselytizing Atheism? If not, why do you have problem with other religious believers talking about their beliefs?

viole · Apr 3, 2019

The Anointed said:
Then pray tell, why do the Atheists who claim they belong to no religion, haunt the religious forums of the world? You wont find too many religious Godfearing people haunting the atheist forums and be forced to listen to their God being vilified in language that would not be accepted in a whore house, knowing that their atheist moderators will never ban them for their obscene attacks against another's belief.

I dont think I am using a whore house language when I compare the ontological status of Jesus with that of Pinocchio, or other fairy tales characters.

Agreed?

Ciao

- viole

viole · Apr 3, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
We all have common ground, even atheists--if eternal life is free, and real--only a fool would pass it by. People liked to be asked questions, so when I proselytize individuals (outside RF of course), I ask, "Can I ask you a question?" and when they say "Sure!" I ask:

Although you did not get permission to ask a second question.

Ciao

- viole

sooda · Apr 3, 2019

The Anointed said:
Then pray tell, why do the Atheists who claim they belong to no religion, haunt the religious forums of the world? You wont find too many religious Godfearing people haunting the atheist forums and be forced to listen to their God being vilified in language that would not be accepted in a whore house, knowing that their atheist moderators will never ban them for their obscene attacks against another's belief.

Whore house language? Are you kidding?

Vinayaka · Apr 3, 2019

InvestigateTruth said:
Do you think, most atheists became atheist as a result of advertising atheism by other atheists, or they alone figured it out? If they had an effect on you to convert you from Christianity to Atheism, do you blame the atheists for proselytizing Atheism? If not, why do you have problem with other religious believers talking about their beliefs?

Many atheists are born atheists, just as in theism.

Jim · Apr 3, 2019

@siti There might be some people who do say that there's common ground without really believing it themselves, but I'm wondering if that's really what your question is about. I wonder if it's more about people fooling themselves into thinking that there's common ground when there isn't

Jim · Apr 3, 2019

@siti I don't like the way I see Baha'is promoting the Baha'i Faith in Internet discussions sometimes. It does look dishonest and disrespectful to me sometimes, and sometimes against forum rules, but I think it's a mistake to call it "proselytizing." I don't think that any of them have any intention of trying to convince anyone in the forum to join the Baha'i Faith. They're responding to calls in their writings and from their institutions to "teach the Faith" and "deliver the message." To them that only means telling people about it, not trying to convince people to join. Of course they might be hoping that some people will join after they learn more about it, but I never see them pressuring people into joining, or even talking about it.

Revoltingest · Apr 3, 2019

The Anointed said:
And what is the agenda of the atheists who haunt the religion forums of the world, who speak so enthusiastically on behalf of their cause, which is to win a believer over to the godless and hopeless belief that they espouse.

We're not giving up on you.

Vee · Apr 3, 2019

siti said:
Is it to "snatch a log from the fire" and "gain a brother" - as it were - or is it just to count another convert? And, either way, is it honest? Is it acceptable to be dishonest in presenting our religious beliefs? Is it "love" or merely another proselytizing technique?

People are not just a number, so no, it's not ok to just "count another convert". It is not acceptable to be dishonest in presenting our religious beliefs, or beliefs of any other nature.
Jesus was a teacher. He taught people who wanted to learn what he had to teach. He never forced anyone to follow him, he didn't tell people beautiful lies or used any kind of artifice. If people wanted to learn they listed, if they didn't that was their choice. Christians today are teachers too. It is not our job to force people to join us by whatever means necessary. If the person is interested in what we have to say, great, if not, we thank them for their time and move on.

Vinayaka · Apr 3, 2019

Jim said:
@siti I don't like the way I see Baha'is promoting the Baha'i Faith in Internet discussions sometimes. It does look dishonest and disrespectful to me sometimes, and sometimes against forum rules, but I think it's a mistake to call it "proselytizing." I don't think that any of them have any intention of trying to convince anyone in the forum to join the Baha'i Faith. They're responding to calls in their writings and from their institutions to "teach the Faith" and "deliver the message." To them that only means telling people about it, not trying to convince people to join. Of course they might be hoping that some people will join after they learn more about it, but I never see them pressuring people into joining, or even talking about it.

Despite what Baha'is want to call it, I personally consider it proselytizing. And I do think it's deceptive to call it anything but proselytizing.

A Vestigial Mote · Apr 3, 2019

The Anointed said:
Then pray tell, why do the Atheists who claim they belong to no religion, haunt the religious forums of the world? You wont find too many religious Godfearing people haunting the atheist forums and be forced to listen to their God being vilified in language that would not be accepted in a whore house, knowing that their atheist moderators will never ban them for their obscene attacks against another's belief.

I can only speak for myself, but I am most definitely looking to out irrational, baseless assertions as just that and, where applicable, spread the word of the actual, verifiable evidence that exists for some of the things that conflict with beliefs held due to religious teaching/thinking.

I want people to know that I am on to them. That I know that they don't know the answers to the really tough questions any better than I do. And to cream them against as many brick walls of reality as I can to bring that point squarely home.

I, personally, am after you. Believe it.

Jim · Apr 3, 2019

@Vinayaka Do you think that they're deliberately trying to fool you, or that they're fooling themselves? It could just be that they're using the definition in the Merriam-Webster online dictionary.

Vinayaka · Apr 3, 2019

Jim said:
@Vinayaka Do you think that they're deliberately trying to fool you, or that they're fooling themselves? It could just be that they're using the definition in the Merriam-Webster online dictionary.

That may well depend on the person, but generally I think it's deliberate. The ex-Baha'is I read about and occasionally chat with certainly think it's proselytizing, and call it that. In many cases, it fits the definition of proselytizing from this forum. Excessive quoting or copy and paste is an example. But to the credit of some, that has been reduced substantially, and most, like you, try at least to put things in their own words.

Not all groups see the word so negatively. Mormons, for example, call it proselytizing when they go door to door.

I'm against it on human principle, and it's not just Baha'is. The sign on my door includes salesmen, religion, charities, politicians and more. I think the basic idea is wrong. It's saying, "I have something you need, and I want to share it with you.' To me, that's a hidden insult right there. Just what gives you the idea that you have something special others don't, and secondly, what makes you think I might be interested. If I want a Mormon, JW, Iskonite to come to my door, I know where they are. I can invite them. With the advent of the internet, you can research any religion you want to. If anyone is interested in any religion at all, they can just go research it.

The irony with Baha'i is that they claim it's forbidden by their faith. Do they really think the rest of us are all that stupid?

Again, it becomes a new story if invited. I've been invited to a Baha'i forum. No questions there yet.

sealchan · Apr 3, 2019

siti said:
OK - so you have a strong religious faith that you wholeheartedly believe would benefit everyone to know about...like Peter and John in the Book of Acts you simply "cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard" (Acts of the Apostles 4:20). You sincerely believe that "necessity is laid upon me" and "woe is unto me if I preach not the Gospel" (1 Corinthians 9:16,17)...

So you have a life-enhancing message that you feel obligated to share. Only one problem - most people don't want to hear it. But surely that's because they don't know how precious a gift you have to share with them. So how to get a "foot in the door" as it were? Well if you have been taught to evangelize, you probably know that "finding common ground" is a key to opening up a conversation. But what if there isn't any? Is it OK to pretend?

Maybe Paul thought so - he did, after all, say that he was "made all things to all men" in order that he might "save some". (He never actually said he was "a Greek to the Greeks" as far as I know but that's the idea). (1 Corinthians 9:20-22).

Anyway, the question is - if common ground (in terms of beliefs) is not there, is it OK either to pretend it is or even to invent common ground - "become a Greek to the Greeks" as it were - in order to achieve the overriding goal of "saving" (at least some of) your audience?

E.g. when a JW is confronted with the question "are you saved?" by an evangelical Christian, should they just say "yes" when they know very well that what the evangelical means by "saved" is very different from what they believe. When a Baha'i is confronted with a question about whether they believe in Jesus as the Son of God, is it OK to just say "yes" when they know very well that what the questioner means by "Son of God" is very different from their own interpretation of that phrase...I suppose there are very many examples...

There's an old saying "all's fair in love and sales" (its also the title of a fairly recent book about successful selling) - but finding common ground is very definitely a tried and tested sales technique. Is that what it is when it is done in a religious discussion? Is the motivation for presenting "less than completely candid" information about one's religious beliefs the good of the hearer - or sales? Is it to "snatch a log from the fire" and "gain a brother" - as it were - or is it just to count another convert? And, either way, is it honest? Is it acceptable to be dishonest in presenting our religious beliefs? Is it "love" or merely another proselytizing technique?

It is not honest just as it is not honest in sales. Trying to sell anything by lying is deceit. Believing that another human being doesn't know something so deeply that you should need to lie is also wrong.

We all have enough difficulties being honest, accurate, open and fair that we don't need to justify our intentionally doing so. If you don't want to expose yourself to the possibility that what you have to sell might not be what is right for the other person then don't open your mouth is the best action.

If you can say anything sincerely, don't say anything at all.

InvestigateTruth · Apr 3, 2019

Vinayaka said:
That may well depend on the person, but generally I think it's deliberate. The ex-Baha'is I read about and occasionally chat with certainly think it's proselytizing, and call it that. In many cases, it fits the definition of proselytizing from this forum. Excessive quoting or copy and paste is an example. But to the credit of some, that has been reduced substantially, and most, like you, try at least to put things in their own words.

Not all groups see the word so negatively. Mormons, for example, call it proselytizing when they go door to door.

I'm against it on human principle, and it's not just Baha'is. The sign on my door includes salesmen, religion, charities, politicians and more. I think the basic idea is wrong. It's saying, "I have something you need, and I want to share it with you.' To me, that's a hidden insult right there. Just what gives you the idea that you have something special others don't, and secondly, what makes you think I might be interested. If I want a Mormon, JW, Iskonite to come to my door, I know where they are. I can invite them. With the advent of the internet, you can research any religion you want to. If anyone is interested in any religion at all, they can just go research it.

The irony with Baha'i is that they claim it's forbidden by their faith. Do they really think the rest of us are all that stupid?

Again, it becomes a new story if invited. I've been invited to a Baha'i forum. No questions there yet.

According to RF rules, the forum should not be used for proselytizing. But that does not mean, it can be used to teach and learn Religions. If that was the case, what would be the use of it?!
How do you distinguish between teaching and proselytizing? Suppose, I ask you about your Religion view of Karma. Then you explain it, and possibly try to justify it. Would this be proselytizing?

Vinayaka · Apr 3, 2019

InvestigateTruth said:
According to RF rules, the forum should not be used for proselytizing. But that does not mean, it can be used to teach and learn Religions. If that was the case, what would be the use of it?!
How do you distinguish between teaching and proselytizing? Suppose, I ask you about your Religion view of Karma. Then you explain it, and possibly try to justify it. Would this be proselytizing?

No that would not be proselytizing. Starting threads about specific religions outside of those DIRs without being asked by anyone to do so is proselytizing. That is my view. If you go back and look at all of the threads you started, please show me one where you were asked by a non-Baha'i to please share that information.

InvestigateTruth · Apr 3, 2019

Vinayaka said:
No that would not be proselytizing. Starting threads about specific religions outside of those DIRs without being asked by anyone to do so is proselytizing. That is my view. If you go back and look at all of the threads you started, please show me one where you were asked by a non-Baha'i to please share that information.

Of course those threads came up, because in many other threads, some RF members, had said, Baha'i teaching of oneness of Religions is false. It deserved its own threads to show their details. Not only on RF, but generally, it has been a point of objection that it is impossible All Major Religions be from one and the same source. By putting up those threads, we have a chance to discuss them in more details.

Vinayaka · Apr 3, 2019

InvestigateTruth said:
Of course those threads came up, because in many other threads, some RF members, had said, Baha'i teaching of oneness of Religions is false. It deserved its own threads to show their details. Not only on RF, but generally, it has been a point of objection that it is impossible All Major Religions be from one and the same source. By putting up those threads, we have a chance to discuss them in more details.

People can read about that elsewhere and in DIRs. There is no need to proselytize that view. But if you feel you must, go ahead. Personally, I have no problem with you believing what you want to. I (and a few others) just don't agree with the beliefs.

All's fair in love and proselytizing

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