Conversing with religious fundamentalists

So would a fundamentalist be a strict literal interpretation of their holy book?

Also a strict fundamentalist is very demanding about damnation, and salvation according to their literal interpretations?

Then i suppose a non fundamentalist looks more at metaphorical interpretation of their Scriptures, and they are more universal and inclusive of all people in their religious convictions.

Vinayaka said:

Many folks say this about their side of the argument, insinuating the other view isn't reasoned or measured. It's a fancy way of saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." What makes you think the other side didn't put a lot of thought into it?

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Knowing some history helps. When the Emperor Constatine became a Christian iin the 4th century he soon realised the bishops or Christian leaders were arguing about the nature of Christ including the issue of Him being the Son of God. He presided over the first council of Nicea in 325 AD where the Nicene Creed was first developed. The decree determined the right way to view Christ and anyone who dared to disagree could be called a heretic with the possibility of being put to death. The Nicene Creed was necessary at the time to unify the church but the legacy of unquestioned religious dogma and the consequence for those who dare to think differently remain.

siti said:

...that you felt was important enough to highlight in a religious debate forum by starting a thread discussing how to converse with religious fundamentalists. So my question is quite pertinent...I think. Is it OK to be dishonest/less than candid in representing one's beliefs in such circumstances? If there is no common ground, why try to pretend there is? Why not just change the subject and talk about the game?

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Have a presented myself as an expert in conversing with religious fundamentalists? It is learning for us all.

The learning for me is to both find common ground and be clear about differences too. Another is being aware of the social reality in pertinent. There is the short story and the long story. There are declarations of faith and the detailed theological narratives.

I see an abundance of common ground whether within religious perspective or another topic. I wonder if your inability to see common ground reflects your previous affiliation with the Jehovah Witnesses?

The game was too one sided to be of too much interest.

osgart said:

So would a fundamentalist be a strict literal interpretation of their holy book?

Also a strict fundamentalist is very demanding about damnation, and salvation according to their literal interpretations?

Then i suppose a non fundamentalist looks more at metaphorical interpretation of their Scriptures, and they are more universal and inclusive of all people in their religious convictions.

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That's a useful way of looking at it.

adrian009 said:

However all too often there is a tendancy to reject help, not take medications and ignore the early warning signs and triggers for relapse. Consequently family members and friends can bear the brunt of it too.

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We found out after, that one of the worst symptoms is rejecting those who you love and this in their mind it to protect their loved ones. The person suffering feels they are not good enough for their partner/others.

It can be controlled, but it never really sees a cure and relapses are always just around the corner. I am sure my wife could now help many others get through and cope with this affliction.

Regards Tony

adrian009 said:

According to scripture before Christ comes, Elijah must come first. (Malachi 3:1, Malachi 4:5)

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A couple of questions: When is this day that the wicked are burned up? Who is the "Sun of righteousness"? And, when is the "great and dreadful day of the Lord"? Since the wicked are still here and doing very well, then God isn't being literal in what he is saying? He's not going to burn up the wicked? Since the Baha'i have Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah all as "The Christ", did all of them have their "Elijah" or did it only pertain to Jesus and Baha'u'llah and not all the different returns of Christ?

Deeje said:

Baha'u'llah may be your prophet but he is nothing to me. His words are meaningless to those taught by Christ Jesus.....but you are as free as I am to choose your belief system for whatever reason you need to.

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But that is the Baha'i argument. He is, essentially, in spirit, The Christ returned. They say Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies, obviously, you and other Christians don't feel as though he has. What are a few of the most important prophecies that you feel that Baha'u'llah hasn't fulfilled?

adrian009 said:

I wonder if your inability to see common ground reflects your previous affiliation with the Jehovah Witnesses?

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Not at all - quite the opposite in fact - I see great similarities between the kind of things I was taught to do/say "in the field" and the manner in which you presented "half-truths" about your religious beliefs in your conversation with the Christian fundamentalist. Anyway, I will expand further in a separate thread because it does bring in questions beyond what your thread was intended raise.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

We found out after, that one of the worst symptoms is rejecting those who you love and this in their mind it to protect their loved ones. The person suffering feels they are not good enough for their partner/others.

It can be controlled, but it never really sees a cure and relapses are always just around the corner. I am sure my wife could now help many others get through and cope with this affliction.

Regards Tony

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Insight and judgment are often affected. People who become elevated in mood often become disinhibited and say and do things they wouldn't usually do if well. Its good to hear your wife feels as if she can now be of assistance to others. Often those who have experienced the illness are the best at helping others. It is hard for someone who hasn't experienced mental illness first hand what its like. I had a severe episode of depression in my mid 20s that lasted a couple of years which seemed like the end of the world at the time, but has enabled me to work in an area of medicine that many of my colleagues are uncomfortable with.

adrian009 said:

I don't believe God picks one faith and turns His back on all the others.

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Except those religions that worship false idols and sacrifice people and animals to those idols? 'Cause God had his Chosen people kill people that believed in false religions. In fact, I believe that it was Elijah that killed several hundred prophets of another religion.

But, then again, God let's one of his religions fade away and die, because they didn't keep the original teachings, right? And then, God sent a new messenger with new teachings. That's not turning his back on the previous one? That's not saying that people mangled the old teachings so bad, that he had to scrap it and start over?

Vinayaka said:

No, I don't have any in the house. Tequila ... wow. I only tasted that stuff once. Some rock concert, was handed a wineskin flask thing ... thought it was wine, but got surprised at the tongue.

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Are you talking about literal Tequila? Oh no, don't do that. I was talking figuratively. Oh, who was the band? It wasn't Sammy Hagar was it? He's got the best tequila.

adrian009 said:

That's a useful way of looking at it.

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Osgart's comment was about a fundamentalist taking a strict literal interpretation of their holy book.

That is a useful way of looking at the Bible for those that don't want to believe the Bible. And, I'd say, most people don't want the Bible to be anywhere near being literally true. But then, why say it is "God's Word"? It's more like "God's sorta Word"?

adrian009 said:

A reasoned and measured approach to biblical scripture supports the a more profound meaning to Jesus being the Son of God rather than literalism. The insistence on traditional beliefs about Jesus Sonship is likely based on the Nicene Creed along with the trinity and Divinity of Christ. Modern biblical scholarship rightly questions long held assumptions. That being said the nature of Christ Himself along with His Relationship to God is at the heart of the Gospels. The Baha’i Faith affirms these core Teachings but moves beyond the murmur of sounds and syllables.

Do feel free to start a new thread and to tag me if you like.

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I thought that was the whole point of the Virgin Birth? It made Jesus God and man all in one stroke.

CG Didymus said:

A couple of questions: When is this day that the wicked are burned up? Who is the "Sun of righteousness"? And, when is the "great and dreadful day of the Lord"? Since the wicked are still here and doing very well, then God isn't being literal in what he is saying? He's not going to burn up the wicked? Since the Baha'i have Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah all as "The Christ", did all of them have their "Elijah" or did it only pertain to Jesus and Baha'u'llah and not all the different returns of Christ?

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This is the great and dreadful day of the Lord. The Lord of Hosts is Baha'u'llah, Elijah was the Bab. There was also twin heralds for the Bab, who also knew of the coming of Baha'u'llah.

Humanity creates their own fire bt the rejection of the Message and we burn in our own neglect. That is why it is a Great day and a Dreadful day.

An Elijah would have come for every Messenger, some may be lost in time and not in records.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

This is the great and dreadful day of the Lord. The Lord of Hosts is Baha'u'llah, Elijah was the Bab. There was also twin heralds for the Bab, who also knew of the coming of Baha'u'llah.

Humanity creates their own fire bt the rejection of the Message and we burn in our own neglect. That is why it is a Great day and a Dreadful day.

An Elijah would have come for every Messenger, some may be lost in time and not in records.

Regards Tony

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So when Malachi was prophesying was he talking about the coming of Jesus or was he talking about all of them... Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah?
And, I guess, the answer is that it is a symbolic "burning" up of the wicked?

This thread has reminded me of the Ted Talk given by one of the Phelp's children about how she was in a sense "deprogrammed" by kindness. There's also the rather infamous story of "Jimmy" who found kindness and strength in the community of others after being ostracized for being gay and thus dishonoring the family.

So, do you think we have an obligation as a wider community to step in and try to help when we see abuse? Even if it is cloaked in a veil of freedom of religion?
I mean the outrage train certainly jumped on Brunei, but was it all just shouting into a void?


Also completely unrelated but @Deeje since you're a JW, are you familiar with the Sophia and Caleb shorts produced by the Watchtower? If so, can you tell me what specific accent the father in those shorts has? It's been bugging me for years!

adrian009 said:

If you check the list you will find the founder of my faith.

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Matthew 24:28

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Did not notice. Did he claim he is Jesus?
You should complain that with en.wiki.

Bahá'u'lláh (1817–1892), born Shiite, adopted Bábism later in 1844,[5] he claimed to be the prophesied fulfillment and Promised One of three major religions. He founded the Bahá'í Faith in 1863.[6] Followers of the Bahá'í Faith believe that the fulfillment of the prophecies of the second coming of Jesus, as well as the prophecies of the 5th Buddha Maitreya and many other religious prophecies, were begun by the Báb in 1844 and then by Bahá'u'lláh. They commonly compare the fulfillment of Christian prophecies to Jesus' fulfillment of Jewish prophecies, where in both cases people were expecting the literal fulfillment of apocalyptic statements

May I ask why you quoted:

Matthew 24:28 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Where there is a corpse, there will always be buzzards.



The words were spoken by Jesus when asked the sign of his second advent.
I believe the corpse is the body the church. Ephesians 5:23
When the apostles were killed, the church died Colossians 1:24
and came the vultures
This was explained in Rev 18:2

Revelation 18:2 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
The angel shouted,

“Fallen! Powerful Babylon
has fallen
and is now the home
of demons.
It is the den
of every filthy spirit
and of all unclean birds,
and every dirty
and hated animal.

MJFlores said:

Did not notice. Did he claim he is Jesus?
You should complain that with en.wiki.

Bahá'u'lláh (1817–1892), born Shiite, adopted Bábism later in 1844,[5] he claimed to be the prophesied fulfillment and Promised One of three major religions. He founded the Bahá'í Faith in 1863.[6] Followers of the Bahá'í Faith believe that the fulfillment of the prophecies of the second coming of Jesus, as well as the prophecies of the 5th Buddha Maitreya and many other religious prophecies, were begun by the Báb in 1844 and then by Bahá'u'lláh. They commonly compare the fulfillment of Christian prophecies to Jesus' fulfillment of Jewish prophecies, where in both cases people were expecting the literal fulfillment of apocalyptic statements

May I ask why you quoted:

Matthew 24:28 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Where there is a corpse, there will always be buzzards.

The words were spoken by Jesus when asked the sign of his second advent.
I believe the corpse is the body the church. Ephesians 5:23
When the apostles were killed, the church died Colossians 1:24
and came the vultures
This was explained in Rev 18:2

Revelation 18:2 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
The angel shouted,

“Fallen! Powerful Babylon
has fallen
and is now the home
of demons.
It is the den
of every filthy spirit
and of all unclean birds,
and every dirty
and hated animal.

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Why do you think that he would claim to be Jesus? If he did so that would actually be an easily refutable claim.

MJFlores said:

Did not notice. Did he claim he is Jesus?
You should complain that with en.wiki.

Bahá'u'lláh (1817–1892), born Shiite, adopted Bábism later in 1844,[5] he claimed to be the prophesied fulfillment and Promised One of three major religions. He founded the Bahá'í Faith in 1863.[6] Followers of the Bahá'í Faith believe that the fulfillment of the prophecies of the second coming of Jesus, as well as the prophecies of the 5th Buddha Maitreya and many other religious prophecies, were begun by the Báb in 1844 and then by Bahá'u'lláh. They commonly compare the fulfillment of Christian prophecies to Jesus' fulfillment of Jewish prophecies, where in both cases people were expecting the literal fulfillment of apocalyptic statements

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Why do you believe it would be exactly the same physical Jesus returned whose body died on the cross nearly two thousand years ago?

It is the return of The Christ or Messiah, not the same physical Jesus. Tell me, what was the apostle Paul's last name?

The one example of the a returned prophet in the New Testament is John the Baptist being the return of the prophet Elijah.

According to scripture before Christ comes, Elijah must come first. (Malachi 3:1, Malachi 4:5). When John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah he said he was not. (John 1:19-21) Yet when Christ was asked, He clearly stated John the Baptist was Elijah. (Matthew 17:11-12). How do we resolve these contradictory statements? Both were telling the truth as John wasn't literally Elijah but had his spirit.

MJFlores said:

May I ask why you quoted:

Matthew 24:28 Contemporary English Version (CEV)

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While the Body of Christ is often used by the Apostle Paul to symbolise the church, Christ used the phrase to refer to his Teachings.

Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe
John 6:35-36

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
John 6:54-56

So with the Return of the Christ are a body of faithful believers or represent the best of humanity are enabled to soar.

Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars, Stretching his wings toward the south?
Job 39:26

'The flowers have already appeared in the land; The time has arrived for pruning the vines, And the voice of the turtledove has been heard in our land.
Solomon 2:12

You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself
Exodus 19:4

MJFlores said:

The words were spoken by Jesus when asked the sign of his second advent.
I believe the corpse is the body the church. Ephesians 5:23
When the apostles were killed, the church died Colossians 1:24
and came the vultures
This was explained in Rev 18:2

Revelation 18:2 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
The angel shouted,

“Fallen! Powerful Babylon
has fallen
and is now the home
of demons.
It is the den
of every filthy spirit
and of all unclean birds,
and every dirty
and hated animal.

Click to expand...

So while birds can represent unclean and unfaithful souls as in Revelation 18:2 they can also be used to symbolise. Babylon represents the corrupted word of God and Jerusalem the uncorrupted. (Revelation 21:2)

The Baha'i Faith after its emergence from Persia 175 years ago has emerged as a stong, vibrant and united community.

CG Didymus said:

I thought that was the whole point of the Virgin Birth? It made Jesus God and man all in one stroke.

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The virgin birth symbolised His purity and His worthiness to be as God's Son.