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Hypothetical scenario for a world without religion

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
What's interesting is that mythical creatures like the tooth fairy can be corroborated though mutual cultural narratives or shared personal experiences, so I'm still not entirely clear on your standard.
Ok. Have you seen the tooth fairly or do you think an actual creature, like a fairy, goes out and collects children's teeth? Please don't avoid this question :)

Going "meh, not real" is a way of avoiding that hard work
Similarly, going "meh, it's real" is also a way to avoid hard work. I'm curious which of those two has the burden of proof? Should I believe alien abduction is a thing or perhaps some guy in the street says I should give him all I own or else my soul will perish? The point I'm getting at is you have to have some method of believing something is true/false/real/symbolic or you'd believe everyone all the time.

I'll use the answer that best suits what I'm doing at the time. Sometimes, I might treat the literary devices and such as their own independent thing
When do you draw the line? Is it a mood thing?

As an aside, anthropomorphism is something I explicitly avoid. I understand why it is used as a literary device and why it is popular, but I feel that constantly packaging the gods into human terms misunderstands their nature (especially when we have the sciences, which study the gods without such trappings). That's not to say I never use it, but I'm not a fan of it and do not anthropomorphize the gods that are specific to my tradition.
I'm curious what deity you believe in, anthropomorphic or not, that exists in the world? Don't worry, I don't bite :p
 
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charlie sc

Well-Known Member
I don't consider Christianity and Islaam good examples of religion, mainly because they are so tainted by monotheism extrapolated entirely outside of its proper scope.

That said, it is a plain fact that for that very reason most Christians and Muslims are indeed much less interested in God than their very presumed beliefs would dictate.

Christianity and Islaam saddle themselves with this odd need to define themselves as a function of their own deities, to everyone's loss. But that can't change the basic fact that a religion is composed of human actions and understandings, regardless of any specific theological elements that it might carry.

In practice, any actual beliefs in the existence of some take on the god of either the Bible or the Qur'an is definitely secondary to peer pressure and family expectations, far as alignment with Christianity or Islaam go. That is not something that those groups feel confortable about, but a reality all the same.
Hear hear! Good reply!
 
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syo

Well-Known Member
The God of the Bible has already contacted us through His Book aka Bible.
Just as it is written so it is:
The international proclaiming about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is now done just as written at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
The 'powers that be ' will be saying, "Peace and Security..." just as written at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
the op speaks if the bible disappeared.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok. Have you seen the tooth fairly or do you think an actual creature, like a fairy, goes out and collects children's teeth? Please don't avoid this question :)

In the apparent world (the limited fraction of it known by humans at any rate) I can't say I've encountered such a creature.
In the otherworlds, I can't say I've encountered such a creature either. Then again, I also haven't exactly gone out of my way to make that happen.

That said, I'm not well-studied in fae lore. I know enough about it to know that it is a great deal more complicated than the literalistic "tiny creature with wings" angle you probably ask about. It's something I really should try to dive into someday, but there are so many bad resources on the topic it would be difficult to determine where to start. A professional folklorist would do a far better job than I could.


Similarly, going "meh, it's real" is also a way to avoid hard work.

It is? I'm not sure how that works. The moment we acknowledge something is real, that opens up opportunities for study while denying something is real does precisely the opposite. That which is "not real" cannot be experienced, studied, or known in any way as I see it. It is unworthy of any time or investment, much less a considered examination of relationships. That which is real to us is worthy of learning about and examining. We get to explore what we can know about it and how we relate to it, as well as how it relates to other things. "Not real" precludes all of that. People ignore and dismiss the importance of what they call "not real." Worse, they might mock it as a waste of time or something to get rid of (which is ironic considering they claim it isn't real).


When do you draw the line? Is it a mood thing?

I don't draw a line when I do not have a "not real" category. As mentioned, I ask in what way something is real. How is this thing experienced and known? Is it an idea? Is it a story? Is it a physical thing or object? Is it an emotion? Is it something someone believes? How does it impact other aspects of reality? How does it relate to other things?

First and foremost, I aim to listen to other people's experiences. I am not interested in "the truth" or what is "really real" or some such nonsense. We're humans. I hardly believe we can know such things anyway. I'd rather explore the stories people tell themselves about the world and how that impacts their view of it. Whether or not I agree that such tales "really happened" is irrelevant to me.

I suppose if one could say I "draw a line" I draw it with respect to how the stories people tell themselves impact things. Is the story they are telling themselves or others consistent with that person's values? Is it enhancing life's meaningfulness for them or others? Is the narrative constructive rather than hurtful? If the answer is yes, that's good enough for me. But it also depends on what hat I am wearing at the time. For what purpose am I making the assessment? I used to be a career scientist, and I certainly put on my "science hat" when making assessments for that intention. Standards of evidence are very restrictive in the sciences, and I keep to them accordingly when working within that domain. Paradigm shifting is a powerful tool.


I'm curious what deity you believe in, anthropomorphic or not, that exists in the world? Don't worry, I don't bite :p

My gods are just the various aspects of reality. When I've made comments about worshiping the ground you walk on, I'm actually not being flippant about that (okay, maybe a little bit flippant). I literally worship the ground - the earth - along with the sea, the sky, and all the organisms on this planet. It also includes intangible things, like learning or creativity. I get to know the gods largely through direct experience, but I draw heavily on the sciences because they're kind of my thing. If you want to learn about Storm, for example, study meteorology.

I do this in part out of need. What sucks about being Pagan in a classical monotheist (or atheist) morass is you are unrooted. I have no native Pagan culture I can draw from to learn the collected lore of the gods of generations upon generations. It is probably why most Pagans in this country operate from European pantheons. There is something to work with there, even if it has been corrupted or is limited. I have to keep my sources of inspiration open, as I have no native culture to teach me.

Which is really, really depressing every time I think deeply about it. :(
 

Kilk1

Member
Sorry, I completely missed your post. Not really about the OP but sure, let’s do this :p

Are you saying that someone rising from the dead means they’re god or god did it or whatever they said prior/after now becomes true?

Sorry if my post was off-topic. I thought the main point was whether religious people had to assume a religion or if it could be demonstrated without prior assumptions/teachings. Maybe I misinterpreted this thread a bit.

Are you saying that if Jesus rose from the dead that maybe He lied? Neither modern Judaism, nor Islam, nor naturalism, etc. can account for Jesus rising from the dead. To my knowledge, only the Christian worldview allows for such.
 

Kilk1

Member
Thank you for your reply.
I find at Acts of the Apostles 22:6-9 that Paul saw a 'great light' around him speaking.
Those with Paul saw the flashing light, but only Paul understood Jesus' voice.
Continue reading at Acts of the Apostles 9:7-8 Paul (Saul) saw No man.
At Acts of the Apostles 26:13-14 what changed Paul was the voice.
So, the ' seeing Jesus ' at 1 Corinthians 9:1 could be in the sense of seeing Jesus as a real person.
It is the 'voice' that Paul replies to at Acts of the Apostles 9:4-5.
Thus, the ' last of all ' mentioned at 1 Corinthians 15:8 could be that the resurrected Jesus appeared to the others before lastly appearing to Paul but appearing to Paul with Jesus' voice.
Chapter 24 of Luke was before Paul enters into the picture and where Jesus uses a materialized body.

I find 1 Corinthians 15:1 is addressing Jesus' spiritual ' brothers '.
Those 'brothers' are the ones who have that first or earlier resurrection to heavenly life - Revelation 20:6; 5:9-10; 2:10.
The meek who will inherit (Not heaven) but inherit the Earth will have fleshly physical bodies.
To me that is why two (2) types of bodies are mentioned at 1 Corinthians 15:40.
Since Paul was the last person to "see" Jesus, I understand it in the literal sense. Otherwise, maybe he wouldn't be the last, as people come to realize who Jesus is today without literally seeing Jesus. Acts 9:7-8 doesn't say that Saul saw no man but that the men with him saw no man; it seems to be a contrast to me.

As for 1 Corinthians 15:40, notice that the very chapter shows that, similar to Philippians 3:21, the physical body becomes the spiritual body: "The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (vv. 42b-44, NKJV). There are two bodies, but "it" starts out physical and then "it" becomes spiritual. Correct me if I'm wrong, but "it" suggests that it's the same body in different forms. Or, as 2 Corinthians 5:4 says, we become "further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life."

Doesn't John 20:25-28 confirm that Jesus appeared risen in His nail-scarred body?
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
Are you saying that if Jesus rose from the dead that maybe He lied? Neither modern Judaism, nor Islam, nor naturalism, etc. can account for Jesus rising from the dead. To my knowledge, only the Christian worldview allows for such.
No lol. I'm saying, if someone rises from the dead, does that make them god, god-did-it, and does that make everything they've ever said true?
I'm asking, if it did actually happen, then...

Does it make this said person:
1: God?
2: God-did-it somehow?
3: Everything they've said = true?

You may combine them.
 
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charlie sc

Well-Known Member
In the apparent world (the limited fraction of it known by humans at any rate) I can't say I've encountered such a creature. In the otherworlds, I can't say I've encountered such a creature either. Then again, I also haven't exactly gone out of my way to make that happen.

That said, I'm not well-studied in fae lore. I know enough about it to know that it is a great deal more complicated than the literalistic "tiny creature with wings" angle you probably ask about. It's something I really should try to dive into someday, but there are so many bad resources on the topic it would be difficult to determine where to start. A professional folklorist would do a far better job than I could.

I can see you're having a bit of difficulty.

With what you know of fairies, especially the Tooth Fairy, which is what we're talking about, do you think this creature exists? What I mean by exist, is that it's an actual entity that goes out and collects children's teeth, then exchanges them for money.
If you want to use a different version of the Tooth Fairly, you may.

As a suggestion, you can take a couple of approaches here. You could say,

I don't believe they exist.
I'm unsure if they exist, but it's possible
They do exist!

If you want to say they come from otherworlds(whatever that means), would you mind explaining what this otherword is you're talking about and how do you know about it?

It is? I'm not sure how that works. The moment we acknowledge something is real, that opens up opportunities for study while denying something is real does precisely the opposite. That which is "not real" cannot be experienced, studied, or known in any way as I see it. It is unworthy of any time or investment, much less a considered examination of relationships. That which is real to us is worthy of learning about and examining. We get to explore what we can know about it and how we relate to it, as well as how it relates to other things. "Not real" precludes all of that. People ignore and dismiss the importance of what they call "not real." Worse, they might mock it as a waste of time or something to get rid of (which is ironic considering they claim it isn't real).
This is what I'm trying to get at. For instance, Game of Throne's characters exist in books, in minds, even in the cool series and other entertainment venues. You can even go meet the actors and touch the props! Yay!
However, as far as I'm aware, you can't actually visit Westeros the same way you can visit China, lol , as much as I'd like to:D So, tell me, how can we study your deities outside of literature or perhaps you think we can study Westeros since it's real? What I'm trying to say is that you can study phenomena regards if you think it's real or not because it's directly in your face.
If you want to study botany, you can examine plants regardless how real they feel. If you want to study geography, oh look at this nice rock!

I'm only trying to figure out how you use logical inference.

don't draw a line when I do not have a "not real" category. As mentioned, I ask in what way something is real. How is this thing experienced and known? Is it an idea? Is it a story? Is it a physical thing or object? Is it an emotion? Is it something someone believes? How does it impact other aspects of reality? How does it relate to other things?
Perhaps we can use the word exist instead, but I feel like we'll run into the same dilemma.

I aim to listen to other people's experiences. I am not interested in "the truth" or what is "really real" or some such nonsense
It seems like hypocrisy here, What if their experience delves into real and not real, exist and not exist. Are you then listening to these people?

We're humans. I hardly believe we can know such things anyway. I'd rather explore the stories people tell themselves about the world and how that impacts their view of it. Whether or not I agree that such tales "really happened" is irrelevant to me.
I'm sorry, but I'm starting to notice either confusion or intellectual dishonesty. What if some stranger told you that unless you gave them EVERYTHING you had, you'd lose your soul and you had to do it anyway because he sees the future. Would you do what he asked? I'm pretty sure this is relevant to you, but it seems like you want to stay neutral at all costs even at the cost of intellectual honesty. However, I have a feeling you do differentiate, because you're lucid, well thought out and objective. It's people who have psychosis that cannot tell what's going on in their mind and around them. They have difficult discerning reality from fantasy and subsequently it makes them vulnerable.

My gods are just the various aspects of reality. When I've made comments about worshiping the ground you walk on, I'm actually not being flippant about that (okay, maybe a little bit flippant). I literally worship the ground - the earth - along with the sea, the sky, and all the organisms on this planet. It also includes intangible things, like learning or creativity. I get to know the gods largely through direct experience, but I draw heavily on the sciences because they're kind of my thing. If you want to learn about Storm, for example, study meteorology.
I get you want to give thanks or worship grass, sure. What I don't get is why you call it god. Why not just say you worship the sea?

I do this in part out of need. What sucks about being Pagan in a classical monotheist (or atheist) morass is you are unrooted. I have no native Pagan culture I can draw from to learn the collected lore of the gods of generations upon generations. It is probably why most Pagans in this country operate from European pantheons. There is something to work with there, even if it has been corrupted or is limited. I have to keep my sources of inspiration open, as I have no native culture to teach me.

Which is really, really depressing every time I think deeply about it. :(
I'm sorry to hear that :(
 
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Kilk1

Member
No lol. I'm saying, if someone rises from the dead, does that make them god, god-did-it, and does that make everything they've ever said true?
I'm asking if it did actually happen, then..

Does it make this said person :
1: God?
2: God-did-it somehow?
3: Everything they've said true?
Any of the three will get the job done, lol! What would you make of it?
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
Any of the three will get the job done, lol! What would you make of it?
I'm trying to understand how you use logic.

This guy, I think this year, was resurrected by a pastor in South Africa. There were witnesses.


Is the pastor, or the person who has been resurrected, god/god-did-it and everything they've said is now true?
 

Kilk1

Member
I'm trying to understand how you use logic.

This guy, I think this year, was resurrected by a pastor in South Africa. There were witnesses.


Is the pastor, or the person who has been resurrected, god/god-did-it and everything they've said is now true?

You're assuming this guy was raised from the dead. He wasn't of the dead to begin with:


For a resurrection to take place, you must be dead at some point and alive sometime after. Everyone agrees 1) that Jesus was crucified and 2) "that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’s death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ." Hallucinations fail to explain this.

But you have a valid question about my logic. How would I, as a Christian, understand someone in general being raised from the dead? After all, Jesus is said in John 11 to have raised Lazarus from the dead. I would understand this to show that God is involved. After all, a mere man can't make alive someone who's dead.

Moving now to your logic, how would you, as an atheist, understand Jesus rising from the dead? As far as I can tell, you'd have to deny it. Isn't the atheistic worldview incompatible with such a thing?
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
You're assuming this guy was raised from the dead. He wasn't of the dead to begin with:


For a resurrection to take place, you must be dead at some point and alive sometime after. Everyone agrees 1) that Jesus was crucified and 2) "that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’s death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ." Hallucinations fail to explain this.

But you have a valid question about my logic. How would I, as a Christian, understand someone in general being raised from the dead? After all, Jesus is said in John 11 to have raised Lazarus from the dead. I would understand this to show that God is involved. After all, a mere man can't make alive someone who's dead.
Yes, you're getting to what I'm saying and perhaps we can examine it further. Fortuitously, we can examine this video, find the people involved and the local news did actually call the hospital, where they found no death certificate. Unfortunately, we can't do this with Jesus Christ. However, this is not entirely the point of what I'm trying to say.
Let's just assume, for arguments sake, this was real. The dead guy was resurrected and he was actually dead.

Does this mean either one of them is god, god-did-it and everything they say henceforth or prior is now is truth?
Please, answer this question. :)

Moving now to your logic, how would you, as an atheist, understand Jesus rising from the dead? As far as I can tell, you'd have to deny it. Isn't the atheistic worldview incompatible with such a thing?
It's not incompatible, but we need to go through a few stages first. We have to assume it was actually Jesus that witnesses saw. I say assume because sometimes eye witness testimony is not reliable or accurate. For instance, people still see Elvis. We have to assume Jesus was dead, because this was the ancient world and medicine was, well, not good. Some people are by mistakenly buried alive Premature burial - Wikipedia. We also have to assume there was no fabrication in the story. So, let's assume this was all accurate and Jesus was really dead. Let's say Jesus was really dead for three days, or whatever, and he was somehow resurrected(btw resurrection already implies someone else did it, which is problematic). I don't see how the only logical explanation is god. I don't mind getting to that but first I'd like you to answer the question I asked above :)
 
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Bird123

Well-Known Member
That's one possible explanation for religion.


This doesn't make sense. This is like saying god is religion. However, you just said religion is an attempt to understand god. Another way this doesn't make sense is that not all religions have a god.


No, are you?


This seems more like preaching to me. Let me try :)
The more you learn, investigate and discover new ideas the greater your critical thinking skills will become. Once your critical thinking reaches a certain stage in your journey, you'll discover how fake religions are and subsequently start to see the abysmal truth of reality.

Oh jeez, I still got it.


I surely do not know every religion. Those I know of have a deity involved. Further, though people's beliefs are often wrong, fake does not seem the right word.

The first thing that God pointed out to me was that mankind carries such a narrow view. More lives beyond the surface than you can imagine. Many people are blind to true reality choosing to limit their view for one reason or another.

This world is truly a Masterpiece. When you can honestly say that, I would begin to think you are headed in the right direction.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Imagine for a moment, a hypothetical scenario where everyone's memory of every religion disappeared and all the literature vanished.

How would one find or demonstrate a certain deity exists?

The same errors which humans made to start the belief in magic and gods to begin with. Pattern errors and assigning agency to things and events.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
That is an "if" not a "when". You just made up the
"when", something I do not much respect.

Nor do I have any respect for your try at framing
this, such that I've done either something
lamebrain, or will be emulating you.

Assuming of facts not in evidence is how you
arrive at belief in "god", so I suggest you direct
your questions at yourself.


I have not been making judgment calls of your nature. You are choosing to create this view from what I have said.

Bumping into God has never been an if. Do you really think you can go through all eternity and not bump into God? As I see it, you have already bumped into God and know God. You will see in time. Further, none of this really matters. It is not important.

To question is the start on the journey to discovery. You are right. I do question everything including myself.

There are a million questions. What is this world all about? Why are you here? What is your purpose? Why is there death? Why doesn't God show Himself to everybody? Why is there sickness? Why doesn't everyone have it made? Why are there so many religions? Does God belong to a religion? And the list can go on and on.

As I see it God is hiding nothing. One can Discover the answers. All the secrets of the universe stare us in the face just waiting to be Discovered. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? Were they blind to what existed right in front of their noses? Perhaps everyone chooses to limit their view in some way or another. What would happen if we all stopped doing that?
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
I surely do not know every religion. Those I know of have a deity involved. Further, though people's beliefs are often wrong, fake does not seem the right word.

The first thing that God pointed out to me was that mankind carries such a narrow view. More lives beyond the surface than you can imagine. Many people are blind to true reality choosing to limit their view for one reason or another.

This world is truly a Masterpiece. When you can honestly say that, I would begin to think you are headed in the right direction.

Basically, if I think like you then I'm right and if I don't I'm wrong. Great.
Unfortunately, this is a conversation closer and anyone can do it. I don't mind you saying I'm wrong but then give a reason why and give me a chance for rebuttal. I am wrong for, _________ and _________, because ___cats eat stuff(example)_____

Here's a question for you. Have you ever thought why a supremely powerful entity requires worship and praise?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I wonder if you are aware that atheists such
as Christine and myself not only have read
your book but tend to know it better than lo
and many a nominal Christian? Copy pasting
verses does not impress, it make you look like
a robot. Just sayin'; I have to reason to want to
help you to be more successful.
Please post where I 'copy and paste'______________
Frankly, I don't use such a feature, and don't even know how to go about doing that.
Rather, I am 'posting and pointing' as to where the information can be located, and is really found in the Bible.
In other words, if a person wants to verify where I got the statement made they can see for oneself.
The Bible was Not just meant to be read as a novel is read, but to be researched.
In other words, since the Bible is Not in ABC order as a dictionary is then to see a comprehensive picture it is good to search or research Scripture by taking one topic or one subject at a time to see what the different writers have to say on those topics or subjects.
I find the so-called 'nominal Christians' mostly go by their church traditions or customs rather than Scripture.
So, besides the reason to want to help me be more successful, how
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Doesn't John 20:25-28 confirm that Jesus appeared risen in His nail-scarred body?
Thank you for your reply, and I find if one starts reading at John 20:14-17 that the resurrected Jesus was Not recognized by Mary. It was Not until verse 15 when Jesus' speaks to her that she recognizes the resurrected Jesus.
If Jesus was in his corrupted physical body she would have recognized her Lord.
Then, please notice John 20:19 because of the time frame. That evening the doors were shut closed.
Jesus comes and stands in the midst of them. A physical body does Not go through closed doors.
According to John 20:24 Thomas was Not with that group meeting when Jesus came.
Then, I see at John 20:26, 8 days later, also again inside with doors being shut, Jesus appears in their midst again.
Because 'doubting Thomas' (in a sense un-believing Thomas) made the request at John 20:25 is why Jesus lovingly materialized in a body that Thomas could recognize.
Plus, I find at 1 Corinthians 15:50 that ' flesh..' (Physical) can Not inherit God's kingdom.
Thus, the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus appeared in his per-human spirit body at the time of Hebrews 9:24.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Have you ever thought why a supremely powerful entity requires worship and praise?

I find that our tongues are created for praising.
Jesus gives a clue as to why ' worship and praise ' at Revelation 4:11
The reason given is because the God of the Bible is also the Creator who created all things.
The word ' father ' means ' life giver ', thus our Heavenly Father (Life Giver) is worthy of praise and thanks.
The fact that we exist, that we have life, is to the praise of His glory, His credit - Ephesians 1:12.
 
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