I haven't needed to quote from the Baha'i writings this entire thread!
Ha ha...nearly
Regards Tony
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I haven't needed to quote from the Baha'i writings this entire thread!
The delusion was about seeing Jesus manifesting in front of a person and talking to him. That would be a delusion fit for even the weakest of psychiatric standards. Religion is not an out merely because the delusion is of a religious figure.
Captain America just told me that he agrees and I can see him giving the thumbs up.
Technically the experience would be considered an hallucination rather than a delusion.
Mystical experiences are possible and my acquaintance may have been speaking metaphorically.
It doesn't matter me what his experience actually was as it was for him and him alone. Clearly it marked the turning point in his life from being an atheist to being a believer. No psychiatrist would be interested in diagnosing him.
I practised psychiatry for many years so I'm familiar with the application of DSM classification of mental disorders to peoples experiences.
Technically the experience would be considered an hallucination rather than a delusion. Mystical experiences are possible and my acquaintance may have been speaking metaphorically. It doesn't matter me what his experience actually was as it was for him and him alone. Clearly it marked the turning point in his life from being an atheist to being a believer. No psychiatrist would be interested in diagnosing him. I practised psychiatry for many years so I'm familiar with the application of DSM classification of mental disorders to peoples experiences.
Supposing there is one truth and some person had that truth, it would be nice of them to tell others that were wandering around in spiritual darkness and get them to see the light. However, many religions and many spiritual people believe they have found the truth. And, it's a truth that works for them and that they can believe in. They read the Scriptures and learn from people that have studied those Scriptures and become more secure in "knowing" what they believe is true. Then, a Fundamentalist from another religion tells them that most everything they believe is wrong. But who here on this thread believes a Fundamentalist of any religion has the truth?That has to be good, the world would be a better place for those that act in faith and do good for all.
Regards Tony
So the Christians assert the literal Sonship of Christ, the Muslims rejects it outright, Shoghi pretends to believe both at the same time by suggesting that neither really meant what they said - and you follow Shoghi's example of disingenuity by pretending that you agree with a fundamentalist Christian whom you know very well does not share your interpretation.So how do we reconcile statements in the Gospels and Baha'i writings that affirm the Sonship of Christ with those in the Quran that appear to deny it?
The "Son of God' is a Messianic designation so in that sense Jesus is the spiritual Son of God, rather than being the physical or literal son of God that the Surah of Maryam rightly rejects.
So the Christians assert the literal Sonship of Christ, the Muslims rejects it outright, Shoghi pretends to believe both at the same time by suggesting that neither really meant what they said - and you follow Shoghi's example of disingenuity by pretending that you agree with a fundamentalist Christian whom you know very well does not share your interpretation.
So, essentially, you are advocating dishonesty in religious discourse - aren't you? How else would you characterize it? "Interfaith"? No wonder the fundies don't want in on that? They'd never know whether you were trying to pull another fast one on them would they?
Did you have that beer? Feel better now? I had to do three shots of tequila. But, I'm better now.Ahh ... the irony. It's too much to bear. I need a beer ... or something.
You did indeed Tony - as ever!Missed the point entirely.
That's exactly right. If there is a God and he told people what they should do and what they should believe, then we should believe it wholeheartedly. But, who believes their religion wholeheartedly these days? Literal beliefs in things in the Bible are seen as being extreme. So what do you do with people that believe in Jesus but not in a 6 day Creation or the Flood or any of the other things in the Bible? Then, once a person starts compromising their beliefs, where will it stop? Then, like on this thread, what if one person is a Baha'i and another a born again Christian? Who's going to compromise their beliefs to get along with the other? Maybe the Baha'i? But how far will they be willing to go? At some point they have to stand firm and tell the Christian that Baha'is believe Christ has already returned. Then what? Ain't too many Christians going to let that one go.@adrian009 To answer this question I first had to get an accurate definition of the term.
"The word fundamentalist is used most often to talk about religion. As an adjective, it describes a very strict, literal interpretation of a religious text or set of beliefs, and the noun means a person who holds those firm, often extreme, beliefs." (Google)
On that basis we have to ask...."what is the point of having beliefs that you don't uphold wholeheartedly"?
If one is a Bible believer and hence a believer in its author as the Creator of all things, why would anyone doubt what it says, regardless of what others think?
From the Christian perspective, Jesus said that we must 'love God with all that we are, and to love our neighbor as ourselves'. God and the Bible are inseparable to us...or they should be. A half-hearted excursion into anything produces no commitment....no one can respect a person whose beliefs are 'wishy-washy' and may be swayed by the least whim or fancy (James 1:5-8).......on the other end of that spectrum however, is an overzealous attitude that tries to force extreme beliefs on others under threat of damnation.
Taking Jesus as our exemplar, we see that he offered his teachings to people on a "take it or leave it" basis. Belief is personal and should be left up to individual hearts.....but at the same time our choices should be informed ones....that includes being mindful of the consequences of our choices.
Paul said at Romans 10:13-15..."However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”
Remember that Jesus' apostles preached to their fellow Jews exclusively at first, so it wasn't like their countrymen had no knowledge of God....it was because their religious leaders had taken them so far off track that the Jewish system no longer led anyone to God. Jesus was sent to show the "lost sheep" the way out of that corrupted system....into a new pen, with a new Shepherd, and a new covenant.
From my own experience, having studied the Bible and engaging in this work commanded by Jesus for most of my life, I find that when the Bible is being literal, and when it is being figurative or metaphorical, the context is what allows the reader to distinguish between the two. Those who have a thorough knowledge of the Bible have no difficulty distinguishing between them. Understanding original language words clarifies translation and identifies bias in translation.
JW's are often accused of being Fundamentalists, but we are just dedicated servants of our God and his son, fulfilling our commission to preach Christ's message to those who want to hear it. (Matthew 28:19-20)
If that is fundamentalism...then guilty as charged. I have had wonderful conversations with people of many different faiths in my ministry. No one is forced to accept our message but many have commended us for the fact that we are out there doing it when most others are not. One can understand how difficult it is when others have opted not to engage in it. (Matthew 10:11-15) Christ said he would back this work.
And what's the Baha'i point? That religions contradict each other? Therefore, it's all symbolic?You did indeed Tony - as ever!
Figuratively speaking - yes!And what's the Baha'i point? That religions contradict each other? Therefore, it's all symbolic?
Do you think Christians can misinterpret the words of Christ?
This doesn't apply to liberals who uphold their sincerely held beleifs wholeheartedly, for example - the sincerely held belief that marriage equality applies to gay people...On that basis we have to ask...."what is the point of having beliefs that you don't uphold wholeheartedly"?
How many liberals have you met that were able to be swayed away from their belief in marriage equality at the "least whim or fancy"? Clearly you are just constructing a strawman here, yet speaking for myslef I can say we are not all too blind to see that liberals have deeply held convictions wholeheartedly and are not "wishy washy" in their beliefs.A half-hearted excursion into anything produces no commitment....no one can respect a person whose beliefs are 'wishy-washy' and may be swayed by the least whim or fancy (James 1:5-8).......
That's exactly right. If there is a God and he told people what they should do and what they should believe, then we should believe it wholeheartedly. But, who believes their religion wholeheartedly these days?
Literal beliefs in things in the Bible are seen as being extreme. So what do you do with people that believe in Jesus but not in a 6 day Creation or the Flood or any of the other things in the Bible? Then, once a person starts compromising their beliefs, where will it stop?
Then, like on this thread, what if one person is a Baha'i and another a born again Christian? Who's going to compromise their beliefs to get along with the other? Maybe the Baha'i? But how far will they be willing to go? At some point they have to stand firm and tell the Christian that Baha'is believe Christ has already returned. Then what? Ain't too many Christians going to let that one go.
@adrian009 To answer this question I first had to get an accurate definition of the term.
"The word fundamentalist is used most often to talk about religion. As an adjective, it describes a very strict, literal interpretation of a religious text or set of beliefs, and the noun means a person who holds those firm, often extreme, beliefs." (Google)
On that basis we have to ask...."what is the point of having beliefs that you don't uphold wholeheartedly"?
If one is a Bible believer and hence a believer in its author as the Creator of all things, why would anyone doubt what it says, regardless of what others think?
From the Christian perspective, Jesus said that we must 'love God with all that we are, and to love our neighbor as ourselves'. God and the Bible are inseparable to us...or they should be. A half-hearted excursion into anything produces no commitment....no one can respect a person whose beliefs are 'wishy-washy' and may be swayed by the least whim or fancy (James 1:5-8).......on the other end of that spectrum however, is an overzealous attitude that tries to force extreme beliefs on others under threat of damnation.
Taking Jesus as our exemplar, we see that he offered his teachings to people on a "take it or leave it" basis. Belief is personal and should be left up to individual hearts.....but at the same time our choices should be informed ones....that includes being mindful of the consequences of our choices.
Paul said at Romans 10:13-15..."However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”
Remember that Jesus' apostles preached to their fellow Jews exclusively at first, so it wasn't like their countrymen had no knowledge of God....it was because their religious leaders had taken them so far off track that the Jewish system no longer led anyone to God. Jesus was sent to show the "lost sheep" the way out of that corrupted system....into a new pen, with a new Shepherd, and a new covenant.
From my own experience, having studied the Bible and engaging in this work commanded by Jesus for most of my life, I find that when the Bible is being literal, and when it is being figurative or metaphorical, the context is what allows the reader to distinguish between the two. Those who have a thorough knowledge of the Bible have no difficulty distinguishing between them. Understanding original language words clarifies translation and identifies bias in translation.
JW's are often accused of being Fundamentalists, but we are just dedicated servants of our God and his son, fulfilling our commission to preach Christ's message to those who want to hear it. (Matthew 28:19-20)
If that is fundamentalism...then guilty as charged. I have had wonderful conversations with people of many different faiths in my ministry. No one is forced to accept our message but many have commended us for the fact that we are out there doing it when most others are not. One can understand how difficult it is when others have opted not to engage in it. (Matthew 10:11-15) Christ said he would back this work.
Ah another one that missed post #2 on this thread. What survey have you undertaken to determine that liberals are motivated by popularity, because I have done it for liberal Muslims, and most of them are not motivated by popularity but by deeply held convictions.In this day and age I notice a curious trend of the past 50 or so years, wherein people for social acceptance or popularity take in...
This doesn't apply to liberals who uphold their sincerely held beleifs wholeheartedly, for example - the sincerely held belief that marriage equality applies to gay people
How many liberals have you met that were able to be swayed away from their belief in marriage equality at the "least whim or fancy"? Clearly you are just constructing a strawman here, yet speaking for myslef I can say we are not all too blind to see that liberals have deeply held convictions wholeheartedly and are not "wishy washy" in their beliefs.
I'm not having this argument with you. The contradictions are unquestionably there. How you fit them into your faith journey is up to you.OK.
That is your point of view, I respect that.
But I believe that the Scriptures do not contradict each other.
More than often, it is the quality and the comprehensibility of the Bible used
As I have used a version of the Bible to bring to light the first verse - allegedly inconsistent with another verse
How can we explain some things in life?
I personally had a very vivid dream of Abdul'baha standing above me on some steps to a building with columns and doors behind him. I was so happy in my dream to see him, but as as I walked up the stairs he dissapeared to the right and I continued to the left to then talk with quite a few people.
I told my friend and my wife about such a happy dream.
Some.time after we decided to go on pilgrimage to Haifa and that process takes a little over a year from application to realisation. A few months before we were due to go, a friend recommended a book about Baha'i Holy places to read, which I purchased and read. Half way through I turned a page and there was the vision of my dream in a photo I had not yet seen before. But there was more, the next page told me that Abdul'baha passed away in the room on the right, the direction he had gone in my dream and He used to greet all the pilgrims on the room to the left, where I went and met people in my dream.
3 months later I was in both those rooms thanking God for such a wonderful dream that in the end was reality.
What can I be diagnosed as. Yes Happy, Happy, Happy, full of joy!
Regards Tony