If as you say God is real and Jesus is alive, why can't you provide a photo?
Of course if God is imaginary and Jesus (given there was one) is dead, then you won't be able to.
And you can't.
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About trinity in Christianity
- Thread starter Spirit of Light
- Start date
Of course if God is imaginary and Jesus (given there was one) is dead, then you won't be able to.
And you can't.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
I am not a paparazzi
Do you have a photo of your great great great great grandfather?
Then he is also imaginary because you do not have one.
Paparazzo, singular.
I don't need a photo of my g-g-g-g-grandfather. I made no claim that he was still alive.
You on the contrary need a photo of Jesus because you state he's still alive and not imaginary. If Jesus is alive and not imaginary, what stops you taking a photo of him?
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
See?
When it comes to a real Jesus, you're stymied. You can only attempt jokes.
Enjoy your imaginary Jesus.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Am I hindered in my belief that Jesus is real?
I don't think so.
I am part of his body, and he is the head.
John 10:27-28 New International Version (NIV)
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Jesus voice is in the Bible, and I could hear him.
I could not yet see him, but there will be that time.
John 20:29 New International Version (NIV)
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
So says the Lord Jesus.
Romans 8:35-39 New International Version (NIV)
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I leave you with 3 verses because I do not want to overwhelm you.
I hope you can contribute inputs about the Trinity and not pestering me over some photo that do not exist which is equally absurd to ask for a birth certificate of Jesus Christ.
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
God the father, Jesus the son, and in my religion St. Michael the holy spirit.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Scriptural not imaginary
You know how to throw verses around
I don't throw verses, I eat it and savor it.
Colossians 1:18 New International Version (NIV)
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Have a lovely day, and continue to feel free to imagine whatever you want to.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
syo
Well-Known Member
There is one God. The aspect of God that creates is the Father. The aspect of God that unites the Father with his creations is the Son. The aspect of God that gives life is the Holy spirit. one God - three aspects of him.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
No.
Islam does not have a Trinity. Also, that's totally off.
Father - Creator, God, Lord of all things
Son - The human connection between God and Man, not an avatar, God's own Son.
Holy Ghost - The universal Soul of all existence
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
Yesterday I spoke with a very nice taxi driver and we came in on religion, He a Muslim and I Buddhist had a very nice chat, so he asked me if I understand the trenity of Christianity, but I was uncertain
My question is, is there anyone who can explain the Trinity for me?
Mind if I play here in your sandbox briefly?
The doctrine of the Trinity is a meaty subject, for sure, with plenty in it to chew on. For the record, I am not interested in persuading you to accept it, i.e. place your confidence in it. I am merely offering my understanding of it which I have received from others. Take it; leave it; or do what you will with or about it.
I've gone through this thread, albeit quickly, and readily understand and sympathize with your comments:
However, ... allow me to offer the following:
I. The Trinity consists of three Divine Persons. the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (also called, by some, the Holy Ghost.
- The Father is not the Son;
- The Father is not the Holy Spirit;
- The Son is not the Father;
- The Son is not the Holy Spirit;
- The Holy Spirit is not the Father; and
- The Holy Spirit is not the Son.
2. Each Divine Person is God. [Note that I did NOT say that each is a god.
- The Father is God.
- The Son is God.
- The Holy Spirit is God.
The most common depiction of the Trinity that I have seen is this one:
3. The Doctrine of the Trinity contains three "legs", i.e. equally important fundamentals or core beliefs:
- Monotheism: There is only one God;
- There are three Divine Persons; and
- The three Divine Persons are coequal and coeternal.
In the graphic above, the three fundamentals are highlighted in orange.
- Denial of monotheism leaves an arrow pointed at "Polytheism." A polytheistic Christian is commonly deemed a heretic by monotheistic Christians.
- I believe that I am correct if I say that members of the Latter-day Saints of Jesus Christ (a.k.a. Mormons) are polytheistic Christians.
- Denial of the three Divine Persons leaves an arrow pointed at "Modalism." Modalist monotheistic Christians, a.k.a. modalist monarchists, as I understand, say that that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are just three modes or aspects of the one God, e.g. "One-ness" Pentecostals and Sabellius and his followers (a third-century priest).
- Denial of the Coequality and Coeternality of the three Divine Persons leaves an arrow pointed at "Subordinationism." Subordinationist Christians believe that the Son and the Holy Spirit are divine but subordinate to the Father, e.g. this Arian heresy was condemned in the First Council of Constantinople (381 A.D.).
- Denial of both (a) the three Divine Persons and (b) their Coequality and Coeternity yields a very monotheistic Christianity, e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses.
- I'm inclined to believe that Jehovah's Witness monotheists are closer to Muslims (but certainly NOT the same as Muslims), and probably closer than faithful Jews.
I'll end this message here.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Would the following passages, taken directly from The Book of Mormon, make you reconsider?
2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end.
Mosiah 15:5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
Mormon 7:7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
Well, not being an LDS member and never having been one, and never having read the Book of Mormon, I'll confess to being stopped in my tracks by the quotations that you cited. Now, you can call me "Seriously Confused."
At the risk of asking more of your patience than you're willing to part with, can and will you tell me:
- What is the current official LDS position regarding the 5th LDS Church President Lorenzo Snow's couplet: "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be." ?
LDS Christians and Athanasian Christians (aka Christians that believe the Athanasian Creed) both believe:
The Father is 100% divine.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end.
The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Christ doesn’t pray to Himself. Neither of them are the Spirit. They are 3 different persons.
The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God (are monotheists).
The difference comes in:
LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.
Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through consubstantiation.
It is believed that in the eternities a disciple of Christ becomes one *with* God. Completely embracing His will, His goodness, His ways, etc. It is complete worship of Him. And of course made possible through Christ's sacrifice.
Jim
Nets of Wonder
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Trust me, Terry, I am as patient a person as you'll run into on this forum, as long as people treat me with respect. As you have been entirely respectful and courteous, I have no reason to be otherwise with you. I see that @Jane.Doe has already given you an excellent response, but I'd like to add a few thoughts of my own. I'd have to say that the "current official position" regarding Lorenzo Snow's couplet is pretty much as it has always been, namely that the couplet itself has never been part of the LDS canon (it was part of a poem he wrote to his granddaughter, I believe), but that when properly understood, it's a fairly commonly accepted way of expressing our doctrine of Eternal Progression, which is exactly what the name implies -- the belief that God has made it possible for His sons and daughters to continue to learn and progress quite literally forever.
Before we get down to the nitty-gritty, let's let's clear up two big, big misconceptions:
(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.
(2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential.
We believe, as you may know, that ours is the re-established Church Jesus Christ established during His ministry here on earth. It would follow, then, that we believe we are teaching the same doctrines as were taught then and accepted by Jesus’ followers. Throughout the New Testament, there are indications that this doctrine is not one the Latter-day Saints invented, but that the earliest Christians understood and believed it, as well.
Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 are the four I like best. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.
Now, if these promises are true, what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” One of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?
There is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:
In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and than later as Gods?”
At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.”
And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.”
Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.”
And, finally, Augustine, said, “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”
Much more recently, the noted Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, said much the same thing in his book "Mere Christianity." This particular quote is really worth paying attention to. It expresses the belief that mankind's potential is far greater than most of us realize and is almost to the letter how a Mormon would explain the doctrine:
“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."
We do believe that God has given human beings the potential to someday become as He is. I hope that helps make some sense of our belief.
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
Terry asks: So, according to orthodox LDS doctrine: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have always existed, and have always coexisted, and will always coexist ?
Terry: Allow me to share the following article from the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society (September 2006) which will convey my limited understanding of the "history of and surrounding Snow's couplet. https://www.religiousforums.com/dat...04/33760_5333b2429873653304c8f9d6b86fc7f2.pdf
I've searched, briefly, for an LDS response to the article but haven't found one. If you or someone you know can refer me to an LDS response, I'd be much obliged.
Katzpur:
Terry: Potential misconceptions clarified.
Katzpur:
Terry: I am slightly familiar with LDS doctrine, having been, since 1990, a genealogical research addict, and a long-time, bi-weekly face at the nearby Family History Center on Temple grounds in Santa Monica until around 2000. After a shift in focus to non-genealogical matters, I took up the hunt again around 2005, by which time increasing on-line resources diminished my need to make the trip to the Santa Monica FHC. The addition of DNA research possibilities made my research even more exciting. And I've had the profound pleasure and honor of identifying eight or so biological parents of persons who sought such information.
Katzpur:
Terry: Just so's you know, I did indeed read all that you wrote which I just omitted in the last quotation from your message. Reading it led me to do a bit of googling, and I came across the word "Theosis" and the 2-volume set "Theosis: Deification in Christian Theology". I'll continue to explore that topic at my leisure.
One consequence of our exchange has been my decision to recant my previous characterization of LDS as polytheistic Christianity, as you had hoped. However, ....
now, I have a new puzzle to solve.
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