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Are there any Muslims here that support apostasy should be punished?

sooda

Veteran Member
Before I even attempt to analyse this, if I do, you seem to have gotten yourself into a logical dilemma.

How the hell do you differentiate between apostasy, where someone leaves their faith, and apostasy that's assigned to you by the state or others?
You might not think this is an important distinction, but then again I haven't heard of a rapist getting off their crime because they decided to rejoin their faith. However, for Muslims that leave their faith, they are given to option to rejoin the Muslim community and forgo any further punishment if they admit they were wrong. For instance, in the the OP link, for Yemen, "Furthermore, article 259 provides that individuals committing the act of apostasy may be punished with the death penalty.[83] It also waives the punishment for apostasy if the individual repents and returns to Islam and denounces his new faith. " Have you ever heard of a murderer being let off in an Islamic country because they denounced their new faith and/or returned to Islam?

I don't think you can reconcile this critique and your attempt to merge apostasy, without properly considering it, is fraught with logical inconsistencies and nonsense. I don't necessarily think this is your fault, but it may be a problem with Islam, in general, that's not been considering. However, I am dubious that you represent the mainstream or any stream :p
You may ask why this distinction is necessarily? I'd say just for logical and comprehension alone is sufficient, but without this distinction it would be like saying all killing is equal. However, there are distinctions between self-defence, murder, manslaughter, etc. Call the distinction what you will apostasty-leaving-believe-because-i'm-too-sensitive, or whatever, and without it you make no sense.

A crime like murder is ipso facto apostasy... I am not sure how to explain it to you. Apostasy may or may not be punishable, but murder is evidence for apostasy… and murder is punishable.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The apostasy laws in Islamic legal tradition vary greatly and are often said to pertain more to "treason" and "sedition" than a spiritual choice.

Back in the day, when Islam was young and enemies abound, those who didn't want to see their idols dethroned in the city of Abraham (Mecca), and those who felt intimidated that God would send a prophet from Ishmael's pedigree (especially in the post-Jesus world), tried to do anything to damage or destroy the small community of believers. They made alliances, attempted to assassinate the Prophet Muhammad (numerous times), waged battle, slandered galore, and [used] other tricks to do the deed.
Read more at The Legal Tradition of Islamic Apostasy
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
A crime like murder is ipso facto apostasy... I am not sure how to explain it to you. Apostasy may or may not be punishable, but murder is evidence for apostasy… and murder is punishable.

As a start, you could try and differentiating the two by calling them different names.
If Islamic theocracies cannot differentiate the two, then it has serious problems.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
As a start, you could try and differentiating the two by calling them different names.
If Islamic theocracies cannot differentiate the two, then it has serious problems.

You are basically saying that no concept of apostasy is correct except your own.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Hateful, violent or murderous attitudes may break the social contract and, I suppose, constitute apostasy in a theocratic model of society, @sooda .

Observing that amounts to needlessly complicating things, though. And it distracts us from the core matter of this thread, which is a much more practical question: is there any justification for making a crime out of apostasy?

A related matter is that of realizing that when a sufficiently dogmatic and unenlightened form of theocratic model becomes influential, it can't help but sabotage itself. The pursuit of obedience to dogma can only be fulfilled at the expense of moral validity, no matter how many sincere people truly believe otherwise.
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
You are basically saying that no concept of apostasy is correct except your own.

No, I’m saying the distinction is important and I gave you examples why. If they, or anyone, don’t want to and/or can’t differentiate the distinctions then I’m happy for them to think this way. I would however be fearful to go to these sorts of places myself, but that’s just me.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
No.. not anything against scripture.. CRIMES

Muslims are forbidden criminal behaviors just like Christians.
Unfortunately, as distinctions go, this one is considerably worse than useless.

For a theocratic mind, apostasy is a "crime against God". By deliberately confusing justice with devotion to a theistic doctrine, theocrats lose track of moral values and justice without necessarily realizing that they are doing so.

Pretty much anything can be called a "crime" (or excused from being acknowledged as such) as long as there is enough devotion to the "will of God".
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Bukhari was from Persia and he was born 200 years after the death of Muhammed.. Plus, he was 98 years old when he testified as to these hadiths.. most of which can't be authenticated.

The Quran can not be authenticated. So now what?
 
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Notanumber

A Free Man
This seems to be conclusive –

Islamic jurisprudence on Apostasy is derived from the words of Muhammad and the aforementioned actions of the Caliph and other companions. If rejecting one of the pillars of Islam is considered to be a crime warranting war against such people, it is only logical for the prescribed punishment for apostasy in Islam to be death. Imam Abu Hanifa’s prescript as seen in Al-Shybani's Kitab al-Siyar grants the apostate a stipulated period of three days to revert back to Islam or face the death penalty. All four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence are in agreement with this ruling, with only slight variations on whether to allow the grace period and the punishment for females.[5] The Hanafi school of Islamic jurisprudence believe female apostates are an exception to the rule and are not to be killed, but beaten every three days and put under confinement until death or repentance, while the remaining Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali schools all agree the verdict for the female apostate is the same as for the male.[7] In Shia Islam, the males are to be executed, but females imprisoned and beaten at the times of Salah.[8]

The conditions for apostasy are that the apostate is performing an act of free will, is of adult age (which means puberty in Islam), is of sound mind, and does so intentionally.[8]

The rulings for the four four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence and the Ja'fari school in Shia Islam can be summarised as follows:[8][9][10]

Hanafi - recommends three days of imprisonment before execution to allow repentance, although the delay before killing the Muslim apostate is not mandatory. Apostates who are men must be killed, states the Hanafi Sunni fiqh, while women must be held in solitary confinement and beaten every three days till they recant and return to Islam.

Maliki - allows three days for recantation, after which the apostate must be killed. The same applies to both men and women apostates according to the traditional view of Sunni Maliki fiqh.

Shafi'i - waiting period of three days is required to allow the Muslim apostate to repent and return to Islam. After the wait, execution is the traditional recommended punishment for both men and women apostates.

Hanbali - three day waiting period should be granted. Apostate is invited three times to repent. Execution is the traditionally recommended punishment for both genders of Muslim apostates.

Islam and Apostasy - WikiIslam
 

Baroodi

Active Member
Perhaps someone who knows about the Quran can comment, since I know little to nothing about it. However, Lionheart seemed to have pointed some scripture inclining attacking those that disbelieve as seen here

What I do know is that some Muslims tend to attack those that leave Islam and speak out about it. This is not to say it's because of the Quran but it may be a factor of it, which then has become normalised in some Islamic beliefs. For instance, Marx never said kill religious people or anything of the like. In fact, he was supportive towards religious people doing what they want as seen in his essay On The Jewish Question. As far as I know, Lenin did not persecute the religious either. It was only when Stalin became leader, did he put his own views forward on what a communism is or how to get there. Therefore, it's obvious why something as interpretive as religious scripture can be seen in numerous ways, let alone talk about how people can obscure it. To say that he shouldn't be afraid or is not taking a risk is plain wrong. Look at the Charlie Hebdo shooting, which was in a non-Islamic country. Then you have certain Islamic communities who supported this act and mass-murder for ideological criticism and mockery as seen by this example.

probably ignorantly or intentionally he is doing this, He knows nothing about Quran since he truncate quotes or isolate it from its context. Those who studied Quran to criticize it, ended up embracing Islam. One such example is Gary Miller.

( And don't offend, God doesn't like offenders) Quranic verse

( No misbehavior from some folks shall prevent you from being fair with them. Be fair, this is near to piety) Quran addressing Muslims
 

Sakeenah

Well-Known Member
I noticed there are quite a few Islamic users in these forum, so I was curious if any believed in punishment, like the death penalty, for apostasy? It seems like 25 Muslim countries support the death penalty or extreme punishment for apostasy under Sharia law Laws Criminalizing Apostasy.
However, I noticed this line of thinking was not only constricted to these countries. As I recall, a survey was done fairly recently in the UK to determine what Muslims thought of the apostasy death punishment concept. Over 30% of the younger generation though it was acceptable.

So, does anyone here think apostasy should be punishable?

I think apostasy in Islam can only be understood if one is willing to look beyond provocative media headlines and delve into the nature of how jurisprudence developed in the pre-modern world and in Islam in particular. I'm willing to have that discussion but I'm not ready to waste my time 'debating'.
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
I think apostasy in Islam can only be understood if one is willing to look beyond provocative media headlines and delve into the nature of how jurisprudence developed in the pre-modern world and in Islam in particular. I'm willing to have that discussion but I'm not ready to waste my time 'debating'.

Ok, that's fine. If you want to explain it then I'm sure I'll find it interesting.

I'm curious why you think debating is a waste of time?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
A crime like murder is ipso facto apostasy... I am not sure how to explain it to you. Apostasy may or may not be punishable, but murder is evidence for apostasy… and murder is punishable.

You make no sense.

There is no apostacy if the person remains muslim.

If you commit murder, you are charged with murder and punished for murder.
You aren't charged with apostacy and / or punished for apostacy.

You get charged for apostacy if you are an apostate. ie: leave the religion and make it public.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The apostasy laws in Islamic legal tradition vary greatly and are often said to pertain more to "treason" and "sedition" than a spiritual choice.

Back in the day, when Islam was young and enemies abound, those who didn't want to see their idols dethroned in the city of Abraham (Mecca), and those who felt intimidated that God would send a prophet from Ishmael's pedigree (especially in the post-Jesus world), tried to do anything to damage or destroy the small community of believers. They made alliances, attempted to assassinate the Prophet Muhammad (numerous times), waged battle, slandered galore, and [used] other tricks to do the deed.
Read more at The Legal Tradition of Islamic Apostasy

That Islam (or islamists) see apostacy (leaving the religion) as treason, does not change what apostacy is. Which is leaving the religion.

What it does do though, is speak to how harshly apostates are treated in Islam and how the "there is no compulsion in religion" in islam is simply bs.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
That Islam (or islamists) see apostacy (leaving the religion) as treason, does not change what apostacy is. Which is leaving the religion.

What it does do though, is speak to how harshly apostates are treated in Islam and how the "there is no compulsion in religion" in islam is simply bs.

So YOU are defining apostasy for Muslims?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I think apostasy in Islam can only be understood if one is willing to look beyond provocative media headlines and delve into the nature of how jurisprudence developed in the pre-modern world and in Islam in particular. I'm willing to have that discussion but I'm not ready to waste my time 'debating'.

The OP isn't asking for an explanation of how this whoel thing came to be or what the historical evolution is of how apostacy is treated.

He's merely asking if there is a punishment and if there is, if you support it.

As for having that discussion you speak of, I'm not really interested.
Reason being that imo, there is no amount of words that could ever excuse the concept of "thought crimes". To punish someone for not being convinced of something is beyond inhuman, beyond immoral,... It is completely insane and no amount of excuses could ever be held up as a valid defense.
 

Sakeenah

Well-Known Member
The OP isn't asking for an explanation of how this whoel thing came to be or what the historical evolution is of how apostacy is treated.

He's merely asking if there is a punishment and if there is, if you support it.


As for having that discussion you speak of, I'm not really interested.
Reason being that imo, there is no amount of words that could ever excuse the concept of "thought crimes". To punish someone for not being convinced of something is beyond inhuman, beyond immoral,... It is completely insane and no amount of excuses could ever be held up as a valid defense.

Like I said looking at jurisprudence in Islam is relevant. In regards to the discussion, my post wasn't directed at you so your lack of interest doesn't bother me.
 
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