The Qur'an: Intentions vs. Effects

icehorse said:

My first thought is that most people who read the Quran are not scholars. My second thought is that - for the last 1400 years - scholarly disagreements have led to enormous bloodshed.

My third thought is that it's fair for me to assess what messages a normal, non-scholar will get from the book. I'm a professional, technical editor, and we use cognitive science in assessing how books will be understood. One major concern I have about the Quran is that - over 500 times - it instructs Muslims to despise non-Muslims. Now the scholars can argue that each of those 500 occurrences has a specific context. For the sake of discussion, I'm happy to agree that each of the 500+ times that the Quran criticizes non-Muslims, it does so within a specific context.

500 specific, individual bits of context do NOT matter!

Human brains are designed to spot patterns and draw general conclusions. It's how we work. Any cognitive scientist worth their salt will tell you that a human brain - after reading the Quran - WILL ABSOLUTELY take away the message that Muslims should not trust non-Muslims. This is a core foundation of all propaganda, and I have to give the writers of the Quran credit for a solid understanding of creating and using propaganda.

I'd like to get feedback on this much before moving forward..

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InvestigateTruth said:

The Quran itself has verses that tells us among the ones who Allah gave the knowledge of the Book are, Muhammad, Ali, Hassan, Hussein. Allah pointed to Them, and then They showed that the verses of Quran alludes that The well-grounded in knowledge continues through the progeny of Muhammad in 12 imams, the last one of Them is the Mahdi.

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InvestigateTruth said:

Not at all!
The Quran verses 'points' to 12 Imams.
According to recorded traditions which is in Shia Islam sources, there 12 Imams after Muhammad, who people are to refer to them to learn what Quran says. 11 of them, already appeared, which the 11th One left the world in the year 260 A.H (roughly year 850 A.D). These 11 Imams, have already interpreted many of the verses of Quran which are available in the recorded traditions. In some cases, they did not interpret some verses, as they said, when the 12 Imam appears, He will interpret for them, as these verses interpretations should not be revealed earlier.

Now, as regards to the 12th Imam, Bahais believe, the Bab is this Person. (Not to mention that, most of the early Bahais, were Muslims, who recognized the Bab, as the 12th Imam.

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dybmh said:

OK. This is good. We needed to catch up to each other. I appreciate that you posted this link, but...

The link you provided is listed in post#2 of this thread.

I have been going thru the document. it is deeply flawed. **DEEPLY**.

If the document were accurate and there were actually 500+ occurrences in the Qur'an where Muslims are "Instructed" to "Despise" non-Muslims, then you would have a very good point. And I would need to adjust my pro-Islam bias in order to maintain intellectual and academic integrity.

However, the document is not accurate. It is biased and misleading. It is propaganda itself.

Even if it wasn't. I'm very sorry. Even if the document was 100% accurate in what it says. It doesn't say what you are saying. The document doesn't say that Muslims are instructed to despise non-Muslims.

I am sorry. The document you provided is very very weak evidence for what you are saying.

And that is only if you take the document as accurate. And it's not.

I think you need to find a new source.

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paarsurrey said:

"I have been going thru the document. it is deeply flawed. **DEEPLY**."

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dybmh said:

@icehorse

AND

I'm sorry, but I have to bring up the hypocrisy factor...

There is a chapter in the Deuteronomy that is so so much worse than anything you have listed.

You focused on one Surah, but even if you go thru the whole Qur'an, I don't think that there is anything in the Qur'an anywhere that even comes close to what is said in Deuteronomy about Jewish people who do not follow the law.

If you want to complain about a book, to be fair and balanced, look at the Old Testament.

Not only that, it goes past Deuteronomy, the book of Amos. Also very harsh on Hypocrisy.

I think it's important to be fair. Compared to the Old Testament, the Qur'an is actually not that bad.

So if you take the Qur'an off the table as a root cause, And That is where this discussion should go...

If It's not the Qur'an; if it's not the book:

So...

I ask you, and anyone. If it's not in the Qur'an, and in fact Terrorism is forbidden in the Qur'an:

What is going on???

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paarsurrey said:

"I ask you, and anyone. If it's not in the Qur'an, and in fact Terrorism is forbidden in the Qur'an:"

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james dixon said:

Please, Oh Wise One----

Enlighten me, so that I may be educated

Thanks in advance
-

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paarsurrey said:

I am just an ordinary man in the street.
What is one's question, please?
How could I help one?

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james dixon said:

You, paarsurrey posted-----
"I have been going thru the document. it is deeply flawed. **DEEPLY**."

You can help me by providing those documents; by the way you can paraphrase to keep your answer short but should you go that route include links.

Thinks in advance
-

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dybmh said:

Most respectfully, would you please take a look at post#9 on page 1 of this thread and post #34 on page 2 ( links below ). Paarsurrey was quoting me.

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The_Fisher_King said:

But what about the verses on disbelievers burning in the Hellfire?

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james dixon said:

I can't wait for your reply

bye
-

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dybmh said:

I think this is an excellent point. For this thread i think it would be good to review the verses of the Qur'an that are speaking about hellfire. I have read some of them before but i don't have them memorized.

When i read them, i did not apply a literal meaning to the references to hell's fire.

But maybe there are verses that are impossible to ignore the literal interpretation?

Do you want to look up possibly the "worst of the worst" verses in the Qur'an which speak about HellFire?

With these verses i would be trying to answer the following questions:

1) Is there variance among translations?
2) Do the verses instruct Muslims to despise Non-Muslims as a previous post claimed?
3) How does the verse compare to the approach to divine retribution in Judaism and Christianity?
4). Do the verses encourage some form of vigilante justice in order to be a "good Muslim"

Because this is a long thread, i think it's good to restate my bias and my purpose for researching the Qur'an.

I am not a Muslim. But I believe in Monotheism. I believe in Islam, the classical definition: surrender to God. I am friendly to the Qur'an.

I am researching the Qur'an; its intentions vs. its effects to ease my own mind, to confirm what my Muslim friends are telling me:

Islam is not evil.
The Qur'an is not the problem .

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The_Fisher_King said:

Here are some verses on the nature of the Hellfire: 78:25, 74:29, 4:56, 22:20, 70:16, 76:4 for starters (quran.com is quite a good source for both the Arabic and variant translations). Now of course it's possible to interpret almost anything the way one wants to, including putting a purely spiritual twist on apparently very physical descriptions of things. I used to favour spiritual interpretations, but now I am more inclined to favour the more literal interpretations.

On fighting/killing disbelievers, see verses 2:191-194. These verses clearly set limits and are essentially limited to war situations; nevertheless, one could argue that Muslims in various places in the world are in war situations where they are fighting against disbelievers (including in cases of oppression, so 2:193). And whoever has assaulted you, assault him in the same way he has assaulted you (2:194). So if an airforce pilot rains down fire on people that burns them alive, you can see the justification for burning him alive if captured, to take just one example.

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dybmh said:

Thank you for this.

I am familiar with 2:191-194. So I will comment on these verses first. The verses you brought on hell fire, i am not familiar with. So I will research these and reply later.

Looking at Surah 2: I group verses 190-194 together as a group. Adding verse 190 is important because it sets the tone for the other four verses.

Here is the text of all 5 verses from quran.com:

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors."

"And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

"And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

"Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors."

"And spend in the way of Allah and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, Allah loves the doers of good."

"[Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him."

Applying my method of analysis proposed in post #194:

1) Is there variance among translations? Yes
2) Do the verses instruct Muslims to despise Non-Muslims as a previous post claimed? No
3) How does the verse compare to the approach to divine retribution in Judaism and Christianm I need to research this more. I think Judaism is much more harsh in its scripture, and Christianity is much more forgiving. But to be fair to Judaism, those harsh verses have context and limits as well that soften the literal translation and practical application. But, an honest comparison, between the Qur'an 2:190-194 and verses in the Old Testament will show the Old Testament is less tolerant and Qur'an 2:190-194 is more merciful.
4) Do the verses encourage some form of vigilante justice in order to be a "good Muslim"? It depends on the person reading it and their knowledge of the Qur'an.

If the person wants revenge or wants to demonize the Qur'an, then simply looking at these verses and ignoring other verses which detail the transgressions and speak about Allah as merciful, i vote yes. These verses can be used to encourage vigilante justice.

But... Not if a person reads the verses themselves.

I think it's very hard for a fair minded balanced person to read the verses 2:190-194 and conclude with certainty that the verses are intended to encourage vigilante justice.

However, If a person is taught the verses by someone who themselves wants to encourage the student towards violence, hostility, it is quite easy to cherry pick the words from those verses that support their pursuits.

What's ironic is people who want to demonize the Qur'an employ the exact same tactic.

The result is radicalization on both opposing sides by skewing the intended message of the Qur'an to support their immoral intentions. This is one reason why I think we have what appears to be a never ending global conflict. Radicalization is happening on both sides.

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paarsurrey said:

"But, what happened in Islam, everyone uses his own mind to interpret rather than learning from the Well grounded in knowledge who according to Traditions, and even the Quran, are the progeny of Muhammad." Unquote

There is no mention of any physical "progeny of Muhammad" in Quran.
If yes, please Quote from Quran. Please establish your viewpoint from the verses of Quran only which is the focus of this discussion/debate.

Regards

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InvestigateTruth said:

Many times I did.
My time is limited at this point to quote exact verses. But in the Quran, it is said, Allah only wanted to purify the House Hold of the Prophet. According to traditions, in this verse, People of th House, are Ali, Hasan, Hussein, Fatimeh and Muhammad.
In another verse (if i remember correctly 33:33), Allah has given the knowledge to only the purified Ones.
In 3:7, Allah refers to a certain people called 'Well-grounded in knowledge", which according to traditions are Muhammad, Ali, and other 12 Imams.
In the Quran a verse, says, God is a witness, and the One who has the knowledge of the Book. According to the Traditions, 'the One who has knowledge of the Book' is Ali, and other 12 Imams.

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