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Chew On This, Creationists

Skwim

Veteran Member
Sure Genesis 1:1, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

So when was the beginning ?
According to various believers, the first day of creation occurred around 4,000 BC.

If you read Genesis 1:3-14, there is no where made mentioning of God creating the water or the Atmosphere ( air)

So it's quite obvious that the water and Atmosphere (air) was already here on the earth in Genesis 1:2.
Before God created anything on the earth.
In Genesis 1:3-14.
Okay.

What do you suppose that disciple Peter was taking about in 2 Peter chapter 3.
"The world that then was being overflowed with water Perished" 2 Peter 3:6.

This wasn't the flood of Noah's, Seeing how everything Perished.
Where as with the flood of Noah's, There were 8 people and animals saved alive.

But here in 2 Peter 3:6 everything Perished.
Noting survived.
Okay, but where does it use or even suggest the term "first earth age," which you say is " spoken about throughout the bible/ scriptures"?

My suspicion is that it's a term you cooked up to denote this rather odd period you've determined as existing between the creation event and some kind of pre-Noah flood mentioned in the New Testament.

Assuming there was indeed a first earth age, when did it end?

And what were the dates of the second, third, fourth, etc. earth ages?

.
So
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
If you can't handle my source of evidence the bible, that's your problem and not mine.

As to where do you think a Christian is going to go. Other than their bible for their evidence.
And if you can't handle it, that's your problem and not mine.

The bible is not a history book. If you consider it to be evidential then thats not my problem.

But may i point out the definition of evidence : the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

As the bible does not contain any other than the names of a few historical figures and places it cannot be seen as facts or information that concern the main protagonists in the book.

Christians go to the bible bible for their faith, not fof fof evidence.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The bible is not a history book. If you consider it to be evidential then thats not my problem.

But may i point out the definition of evidence : the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

As the bible does not contain any other than the names of a few historical figures and places it cannot be seen as facts or information that concern the main protagonists in the book.

Christians go to the bible bible for their faith, not fof fof evidence.

For you maybe, but as a Christian the bible is facts and source of information.
 
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2019 Darwin Day Resolutions Have Been Filed in Both the House and Senate


"For the past several years, a member of Congress has introduced a resolution in the House to honor Charles Darwin on his birthday. Rep. Pete Stark (D-CA) did it in 2011, Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ) did it in 2013 and 2014, and Rep. Jim Himes (D-CT) has done it in the years since. Himes just did it again today, introducing the resolution, officially known as House Resolution 123. It designates “February 12, 2019, as ‘Darwin Day’ and [recognizes] the importance of science in the betterment of humanity.” The bill had a companion in the Senate, with Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) sponsoring S. Res. 63, which is not publicly available yet. (He has sponsored similar resolutions since 2015.)

Kd9Qys8.jpg
The American Humanist Association appreciates the nod to science at a time when reason and common sense in government are hard to find. They’re calling on readers to contact their representatives to co-sponsor the resolutions. (I did. It took about one minute.)


“Charles Darwin represents the power of science and reason to change our world and the way we view our place in the universe,” said Rep. Himes. “Overcoming the challenges we face — the destruction of our environment, the need for renewable energy, and global population growth — will require the best humanity has to offer. We must inspire a new generation of Americans to enter the fields of science, technology, math and engineering. There is no nobler pursuit than acquiring an education in order to better the lot of humanity. There is no nobler title one can wear than “scientist.”

“I am proud to champion and celebrate Charles Darwin and the countless scientists and explorers who’ve built on his remarkable discoveries and achievements,” said Sen. Blumenthal. “Darwin Day recognizes Darwin’s invaluable contributions, which fundamentally changed the field of natural science and dramatically advanced our understanding of the world. Today, we reflect and remember that the dogged pursuit of science and human knowledge are profoundly important to the progress of humankind and the preservation of our planet.”

“While we take care not to deify our heroes of the past, and we take time to recognize their flaws, we are proud to continue recognizing the work of famed scientist Charles Darwin,” notes American Humanist Association Executive Director Roy Speckhardt. “Humanism and reason go hand in hand, as we use scientific advancements to protect nature’s integrity, diversity, and beauty, and take responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live.”
source


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2019 Darwin Day Resolutions Have Been Filed in Both the House and Senate


"For the past several years, a member of Congress has introduced a resolution in the House to honor Charles Darwin on his birthday. Rep. Pete Stark (D-CA) did it in 2011, Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ) did it in 2013 and 2014, and Rep. Jim Himes (D-CT) has done it in the years since. Himes just did it again today, introducing the resolution, officially known as House Resolution 123. It designates “February 12, 2019, as ‘Darwin Day’ and [recognizes] the importance of science in the betterment of humanity.” The bill had a companion in the Senate, with Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) sponsoring S. Res. 63, which is not publicly available yet. (He has sponsored similar resolutions since 2015.)

Kd9Qys8.jpg
The American Humanist Association appreciates the nod to science at a time when reason and common sense in government are hard to find. They’re calling on readers to contact their representatives to co-sponsor the resolutions. (I did. It took about one minute.)


“Charles Darwin represents the power of science and reason to change our world and the way we view our place in the universe,” said Rep. Himes. “Overcoming the challenges we face — the destruction of our environment, the need for renewable energy, and global population growth — will require the best humanity has to offer. We must inspire a new generation of Americans to enter the fields of science, technology, math and engineering. There is no nobler pursuit than acquiring an education in order to better the lot of humanity. There is no nobler title one can wear than “scientist.”

“I am proud to champion and celebrate Charles Darwin and the countless scientists and explorers who’ve built on his remarkable discoveries and achievements,” said Sen. Blumenthal. “Darwin Day recognizes Darwin’s invaluable contributions, which fundamentally changed the field of natural science and dramatically advanced our understanding of the world. Today, we reflect and remember that the dogged pursuit of science and human knowledge are profoundly important to the progress of humankind and the preservation of our planet.”

“While we take care not to deify our heroes of the past, and we take time to recognize their flaws, we are proud to continue recognizing the work of famed scientist Charles Darwin,” notes American Humanist Association Executive Director Roy Speckhardt. “Humanism and reason go hand in hand, as we use scientific advancements to protect nature’s integrity, diversity, and beauty, and take responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live.”
source


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Umm, who cares if Humanist want to honor their champion. Good for you. It's not like they're making it a law for Creationist to honor him. Then you'd have something to celebrate about:D
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
You guyz don't know what yer miss'n.
Spam is great...not bacon great, but in the spectrum from tofu to bacon, it leans towards the latter.
Blech!
Tofu is most definitely miles and leagues above Spam. I don't get how it ever got to be so popular in Hawaii (a couple Hawaiians I knew absolutely loved the stuff and cooked it with just about everything), I don't get why some older folk love it, but I do agree using the name to describe unsolicited email was a good choice of words, and the "can Spam act" was probably the only good thing Bush Jr. did.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Tofu is most definitely miles and leagues above Spam. I don't get how it ever got to be so popular in Hawaii (a couple Hawaiians I knew absolutely loved the stuff and cooked it with just about everything)

Re about the Hawaiians -

* cringes *
* shudders *
* retches *
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
I think evolution is driven by God. There is a purpose to evolution. As things evolve, consciousness evolves to have a better appreciation of God's infinite perfection. Time is meaningless. So whether it is 6000 God-Years or 4.55 billion Earth years, it's all good.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
In response to the OP, what do we really know about Darwin?

A quick Google search on Charles Darwin reveals some interesting facts.....

"On the Origin of Species reflects theological views. Though he thought of religion as a tribal survival strategy, Darwin still believed that God was the ultimate lawgiver, and later recollected that at the time he was convinced of the existence of God as a First Cause and deserved to be called a theist."

So for Darwin, as a believer in God, he saw adaptation and recognised that God was the one governing the laws of nature. That these mechanisms for adaptation were inbuilt in all living things.

"Darwinism is a theory of biological evolution developed by the English naturalist Charles Darwin (1809–1882) and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce."

Still not arguing against a Creator. I believe that the "others" mentioned here contributed more than Darwin in shaping what we know today as "the theory of evolution".
How did Darwin understand the term "species of organisms"?

"In 1859, Charles Darwin set out his theory of evolution by natural selection as an explanation for adaptation and speciation. He defined natural selection as the "principle by which each slight variation [of a trait], if useful, is preserved"."

"Adaptation and speciation" are natural processes that Darwin observed......his assumption that different birds could interbreed to produce these new varieties was not supported however.

"The ornithologist John Gould soon announced that the Galapagos birds that Darwin had thought a mixture of blackbirds, "gros-beaks" and finches, were, in fact, twelve separate species of finches."

It appears that 'others' took his observations and turned them into the circus we now know as "macro-evolution".......something Darwin did not assume from his observations.

What has actually "evolved" since Darwin's time, is man's excursions into fantasy concerning the simple observations of his time on the Galápagos Islands.

"On The Origin of Species" was originally about an organism's ability to adapt to a new environment, and different food sources, producing different "varieties" within a taxonomic family of creatures. Darwin saw varieties of finches and a marine adapted iguana and a different species of tortoise, much larger than any seen elsewhere.....but he did not see these creatures morphing into something other than what they were recognised as being.

Ever so gradually, speculation is what "evolved" into "speciation" coming to mean all the different "kinds" of creatures all descending from a common ancestor....a single celled organism, that popped into existence spontaneously, with the inbuilt ability to become all the different lifeforms on earth......but without a single shred of actual evidence that this was even possible.

Getting rid of God was apparently something a lot of people wanted to do, and not surprisingly when you see what "the church" insisted was the true story of Genesis....and here we are....both extremes being utterly baseless. Yet no one considers that somewhere in the middle is a more balanced approach. Creation and science are completely compatible. It never was an "either/or" option.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Umm, who cares if Humanist want to honor their champion. Good for you. It's not like they're making it a law for Creationist to honor him. Then you'd have something to celebrate about:D
We don't celebrate such accomplishments because they give lie to religious fable, but because they significantly advance science.


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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Blech!
Tofu is most definitely miles and leagues above Spam. I don't get how it ever got to be so popular in Hawaii (a couple Hawaiians I knew absolutely loved the stuff and cooked it with just about everything), I don't get why some older folk love it, but I do agree using the name to describe unsolicited email was a good choice of words, and the "can Spam act" was probably the only good thing Bush Jr. did.
Spam is great, especially in HI, where one can get Spam sai min.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
What do you suppose that disciple Peter was taking about in 2 Peter chapter 3.
"The world that then was being overflowed with water Perished" 2 Peter 3:6.

This wasn't the flood of Noah's, Seeing how everything Perished.
Where as with the flood of Noah's, There were 8 people and animals saved alive.

There was no flood of any kind that covered the entire Earth including mountains...not in the beginning of time (time on Earth that is, so 4.7 billion years ago), and not 4500 or so years ago, the supposed estimate of Noah’s flood (based on the translations of the Masoretic Text; the Septuagint would give you different numbers of years).

The Earth being covered by water in Genesis 1:1-2 never happened. Nor did Genesis 7 & 8, and neither in 2 Peter 3:6.

Plus, 2nd epistle of Peter might not even be authentic, as in someone else might have been the author, and used the apostle Peter’s name.

Even as early the late 2nd century CE, someone (eg Origen and Eusebius) was already questioning the epistle’s origin, and in the Syrian translation, 2 Peter was excluded from the Pesh-itta (3rd century CE).

2 Peter wasn’t only book not included in the Pesh-itta, like Revelation, 2 John, 3 John and Jude. But what is strange is that Pesh-itta included books of the Apocrypha to the Old Testament.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
For you maybe, but as a Christian the bible is facts and source of information.
One cannot have one's own facts. Facts are true no matte who looks at them, as long as that person is honest.

The Bible is not "facts" since much of it can be refuted. One can still be a Christian and not believe the obviously false parts of the Bible. It is a bit of an insult to Christianity to say that one must believe in what we know is not true. You do realize that most Flat Earther's are Christians too. They are not that different from you. They only begin to ignore science a bit earlier and take the Bible a hair more literally.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
There was no flood of any kind that covered the entire Earth including mountains...not in the beginning of time (time on Earth that is, so 4.7 billion years ago), and not 4500 or so years ago, the supposed estimate of Noah’s flood (based on the translations of the Masoretic Text; the Septuagint would give you different numbers of years).

The Earth being covered by water in Genesis 1:1-2 never happened. Nor did Genesis 7 & 8, and neither in 2 Peter 3:6.

Plus, 2nd epistle of Peter might not even be authentic, as in someone else might have been the author, and used the apostle Peter’s name.

Even as early the late 2nd century CE, someone (eg Origen and Eusebius) was already questioning the epistle’s origin, and in the Syrian translation, 2 Peter was excluded from the Pe****ta (3rd century CE).

2 Peter wasn’t only book not included in the Pe****ta, like Revelation, 2 John, 3 John and Jude. But what is strange is that Pe****ta included books of the Apocrypha to the Old Testament.

So you say, doesn't prove a thing, only you say so.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The bible is not a history book. If you consider it to be evidential then thats not my problem.

But may i point out the definition of evidence : the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

As the bible does not contain any other than the names of a few historical figures and places it cannot be seen as facts or information that concern the main protagonists in the book.

Christians go to the bible bible for their faith, not fof fof evidence.

As a Christian I do go to the bible for my proof and evidence, if people can't handle that, that's no fault of mine, but theirs
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Whatever.

Yep...that response speaks volumes. The 'father of evolution' was a believer in God. He was intelligent enough to know that the church had it all wrong, but they could not admit it....many still don't.

Darwin knew that the earth was ancient.....and so do JW's. He saw ability to adapt in many creatures, and wanted to explore the possibilities. Others took that exploration into realms of the unprovable, making macro-evolution as much of a fantasy as they thought creation was. This is a fact that sits uncomfortably with the die hard anti-creationists. Science cannot back up with real evidence that macro-evolution ever happened....and you know it. All I had to do was ask for proof and I was barraged with protests about why it wasn't necessary. What a joke! No proof means no facts. No facts = a belief.

Still waiting for you to demonstrate your scientific acumen and explain your claim about bacteria being "immune" to things.

Fixated much? :rolleyes: Seriously....

Adaptation is the explanation as to how any living organism can take on new abilities or characteristics to ensure their survival. Sorry if that is not scientific enough for you. Bacteria and viruses are living things that can adapt to resist any attempt to kill them off.

Hospitals now have become the breeding ground for the "superbugs".......you've heard of these no doubt?

"Superbugs" is a term used to describe strains of bacteria that are resistant to the majority of antibiotics commonly used today. Resistant bacteria that cause pneumonia, urinary tract infections and skin infections are just a few of the dangers we now face.

Antibiotic resistance is a naturally occurring phenomenon that can be slowed, but not stopped. Over time, bacteria adapt to the drugs that are designed to kill them and change to ensure their survival. This makes previously standard treatments for bacterial infections less effective, and in some cases, ineffective."


Mayo Clinic...
Protect yourself from superbugs

"Hospital-acquired infections are caused by viral, bacterial, and fungal pathogens; the most common types are bloodstream infection (BSI), pneumonia (eg, ventilator-associated pneumonia [VAP]), urinary tract infection (UTI), and surgical site infection "(SSI).Dec 8, 2016

https://emedicine.medscape.com › article

I think we get the picture don't we? Do we need a science degree to comprehend that creation has the ability to triumph over clever human attempts to defeat it....?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I think we get the picture don't we? Do we need a science degree to comprehend that creation has the ability to triumph over clever human attempts to defeat it....?
It's not creation but evolution. It's been a non-stop battle between predator and prey. One advances, the other faces pressure to catch up and advances, and then the other faces pressure to catch up and advance. And Creationism is predicated around the idea that everything was created as it several thousand years ago. It doesn't really allow for these adaptions the way natural selection and evolution do.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It's not creation but evolution. It's been a non-stop battle between predator and prey. One advances, the other faces pressure to catch up and advances, and then the other faces pressure to catch up and advance. And Creationism is predicated around the idea that everything was created as it several thousand years ago. It doesn't really allow for these adaptions the way natural selection and evolution do.

Now that is a wrong assumption, SW. "Young earth-Creationism" is the problem. We do not support the YEC position because it is simply not what the Bible teaches....nor is it in accord with what science teaches. The earth itself is ancient and so are the many lifeforms that preceded humankind. We (JW's) see creation as a very slow and deliberate process over millions (even billions) of years. It includes adaptation because this is also something science has observed first hand, as opposed to what it speculates "might have" happened all those millenniums ago.

If you look at Genesis 1:1 you will see a simple statement...

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". There is no timeframe suggested here as to when "the beginning" was....and nothing to say that what came next is an immediate follow on in the succeeding verses. IOW, the creation of the universe (Big Bang) was something that occurred in the dim dark past before there was any living material thing in existence.

Life was not a fluke...it was planned from the beginning when the Creator prepared a lifeless planet to receive a multitude of beautifully designed, fully functional lifeforms. He had no time constraints and his design included the ability to adapt to changing environments.

We do not believe that the "days" in Genesis were 24 hour periods. The word in Hebrew can mean a span of undetermined time. God and science are not incompatible for us.
 
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