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John 5:37 contradiction, or not...

Let's see. There was the burning bush incident..
Again, there's only a contradiction if you believe only the Father is God which the Bible does not teach.
As far as the burning bush is considered the Angel of the Lord is Jesus in his pre-incarnate state. How do I know this, one The Angel of the Lord in multiple verses in the Bible speaks and says only things that God can say(another topic for another time). Secondly, because The Bible says God the Father can't be seen(John 1:18). Although in other places it says God has been seen. So someone else in the Godhead can be seen while the others can't and we know it's not the Father. Here's two of multiple verses that prove Jesus was seen as Yahweh in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 6:1-5

6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

It literally mentions the name Yahweh in verse 5 in the Hebrew. He also is scared because he knows seeing God in his essence means death. So we know God Almighty is being spoken of here.

John 12:37-41

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,

38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Verse 41 says Isaiah said these things when he saw Jesus Glory. Jesus is God. Therefore no contradiction.
 
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dfnj

Well-Known Member
John 5:37

Specifically any verse that proposes a never encountered G-d, directly contradicts Scripture, is even abstractly, or by any interpretation false, does this verse actually say this?

The only message I ever get out of the Bible is having morality is important.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Again, there's only a contradiction if you believe only the Father is God which the Bible does not teach.
As far as the burning bush is considered the Angel of the Lord is Jesus in his pre-incarnate state. How do I know this, one The Angel of the Lord in multiple verses in the Bible speaks and says only things that God can say(another topic for another time). Secondly, because The Bible says God the Father can't be seen(John 1:18). Although in other places it says God has been seen. So someone else in the Godhead can be seen while the others can't and we know it's not the Father. Here's two of multiple verses that prove Jesus was seen as Yahweh in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 6:1-5

6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

It literally mentions the name Yahweh in verse 5 in the Hebrew. He also is scared because he knows seeing God in his essence means death. So we know God Almighty is being spoken of here.

John 12:37-41

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,

38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Verse 41 says Isaiah said these things when he saw Jesus Glory. Jesus is God. Therefore no contradiction.
So we're still talking metaphors?
 
So we're still talking metaphors?
What metaphors?
Isaiah saw the Lord on a throne lifted up in Glory.
John says it was Jesus Isaiah saw in Glory.

Also, your profile says you're a Christian yet you come off as negative to Christian doctrine. Can you please share what Christian denomination you belong to if any, and what is their teaching on the nature of God. It would be most appreciated.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
No one has seen God, not even Jesus the Son or Baha'u'llah the Father.

There is no contradiction in any scripture, unless man has interpreted a contradiction.

These passages are now fully reconciled.

God is unknowable in Essence and knowable only in Attributes through all of God's Mesengers.

There are many levels of comprehension with this topic.

Regards Tony



It is not correct according to the biblical scriptures that Jesus the Son has not seen God the Father. So if you believe that then you have come up with the idea on your own or believe in other teachings/scriptures which do contradict the Bible.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:1-3

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14


For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:17-18

It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 6:45-47
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is not correct according to the biblical scriptures that Jesus the Son has not seen God the Father. So if you believe that then you have come up with the idea on your own or believe in other teachings/scriptures which do contradict the Bible.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:1-3

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14


For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:17-18

It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 6:45-47

The Father is Baha'u'llah. In this age this is where we turn to see God.

I believe that is scriptural.

Regards Tony
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
John 5:37

Specifically any verse that proposes a never encountered G-d, directly contradicts Scripture, is even abstractly, or by any interpretation false, does this verse actually say this?
well...apparently....

the Guy that spoke of it.....had that encounter
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
John 5:37 says ... And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

This verse is saying that those Jesus was speaking to had neither heard the voice of the Father, nor seen the Father or His form at anytime.

Do you agree with that, it is the Father no one had seen or heard?

They were not the words of the man Jesus, they were the words of the Son of Man, 'The Lesser JHWH' the only begotten Son of the Most High in the creation.

This is the Son of Man, who was accepted by Abraham as his God, who said to Moses; "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their own people, and I will put 'MY WORDS' into his mouth and he shall speak all that I command him. And i will punish whoever will not heed 'MY WORDS' which he shall speak in my name."

When the man Jesus speaks, he speaks the WORDS of God's only begotten Son.

Acts 3L 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given glory to his servant Jesus.

Before he was about to come into the world and fill the man Jesus with his spirit, in order to reveal himself to us and the awesome sacrifice he make for the sins of the mother Body in which he developed, he said to God, "You do not want sacrifices or offering, but a body you have prepared for me," and that body was the man Jesus.

Just as mankind developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, so too the Son of Man, the Most High in the creation, develops within the body of the great pregnant androgynous body of EVE=mankind, and just as each of us must suffer the first death and pay the blood price for the sins of the flesh in which we the invisible minds develop, so too must the Son of Man.
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
They were not the words of the man Jesus, they were the words of the Son of Man, 'The Lesser JHWH' the only begotten Son of the Most High in the creation.

This is the Son of Man, who was accepted by Abraham as his God, who said to Moses; "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their own people, and I will put 'MY WORDS' into his mouth and he shall speak all that I command him. And i will punish whoever will not heed 'MY WORDS' which he shall speak in my name."

When the man Jesus speaks, he speaks the WORDS of God's only begotten Son.

Acts 3L 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given glory to his servant Jesus.

Before he was about to come into the world and fill the man Jesus with his spirit, in order to reveal himself to us and the awesome sacrifice he make for the sins of the mother Body in which he developed, he said to God, "You do not want sacrifices or offering, but a body you have prepared for me," and that body was the man Jesus.

Just as mankind developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, so too the Son of Man, the Most High in the creation, develops within the body of the great pregnant androgynous body of EVE=mankind, and just as each of us must suffer the first death and pay the blood price for the sins of the flesh in which we the invisible minds develop, so too must the Son of Man.
Whatever you just said makes no sense to me and I don't see that it lines up with the scriptures at all. According to the scriptures, there is only one God, no other gods, except fake idols, no Lesser JHWH god.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Whatever you just said makes no sense to me and I don't see that it lines up with the scriptures at all. According to the scriptures, there is only one God, no other gods, except fake idols, no Lesser JHWH god.

Does God have a Son? Is the Son equal to God? Is the Son of God the successor to the throne of the Most High?

Do you believe that the Father and the Son are one single entity, or two separate individuals? Do you believe that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, said to Moses; "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their own people, and I will put 'MY WORDS' into his mouth and he shall speak all that I command him. And i will punish whoever will not heed 'MY WORDS' which he shall speak in my name."

Who words were these, which came out of the mouth of the man Jesus; Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Does God have a Son? Is the Son equal to God? Is the Son of God the successor to the throne of the Most High?

Do you believe that the Father and the Son are one single entity, or two separate individuals? Do you believe that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, said to Moses; "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their own people, and I will put 'MY WORDS' into his mouth and he shall speak all that I command him. And i will punish whoever will not heed 'MY WORDS' which he shall speak in my name."

Who words were these, which came out of the mouth of the man Jesus; Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up?

I believe the scriptures reveal God as One God, three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I think you are not fully understanding the concept that the Son, while fully God in His nature/essence/power/character the same as His Father, lowered Himself to the position of fully human. From this humble ,submissive, human position He spoke all words which He and His Father shared in complete agreement and gave all glory to His Father.

"The Bible presents a God who did not need to create any beings to experience love, communion and fellowship. This God is complete in Himself, being three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, separate and distinct, yet at the same time eternally one God. They loved and communed and fellowshiped with each other and took counsel together before the universe, angels or man were brought into existence. Isaiah "heard the voice of the Lord [in eternity past] saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" (Isa:6:8). Moses revealed the same counseling together of the Godhead: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"; and again, "Let us go down, and there confound their language" (Gen:1:26
;11:7). Who is this "us" if God is a single entity? Why does God say, "The man is become as one of us" (Gen:3:22)?"
https://www.thebereancall.org/content/trinity


"Moreover, if God is a single Being, then why is the plural Hebrew noun elohim (literally "gods") used for God repeatedly? In fact, this plural noun is in the center of Israel's famous confession of the oneness of God! The Shema declares, "Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4; Mk 12:29). In the Hebrew it reads, "Jehovah our elohim [gods] is one [echad] Jehovah." The Hebrew word echad allows for a unity of more than one."
The Trinity
 
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The Anointed

Well-Known Member
I believe the scriptures reveal God as One God, three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I think you are not fully understanding the concept that the Son, while fully God in His nature/essence/power/character the same as His Father, lowered Himself to the position of fully human. From this humble ,submissive, human position He spoke all words which He and His Father shared in complete agreement and gave all glory to His Father.

"The Bible presents a God who did not need to create any beings to experience love, communion and fellowship. This God is complete in Himself, being three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, separate and distinct, yet at the same time eternally one God. They loved and communed and fellowshiped with each other and took counsel together before the universe, angels or man were brought into existence. Isaiah "heard the voice of the Lord [in eternity past] saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" (Isa:6:8). Moses revealed the same counseling together of the Godhead: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"; and again, "Let us go down, and there confound their language" (Gen:1:26
;11:7). Who is this "us" if God is a single entity? Why does God say, "The man is become as one of us" (Gen:3:22)?"
The Trinity


Moreover, if God is a single Being, then why is the plural Hebrew noun elohim (literally "gods") used for God repeatedly? In fact, this plural noun is in the center of Israel's famous confession of the oneness of God! The Shema declares, "Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4; Mk 12:29). In the Hebrew it reads, "Jehovah our elohim [gods] is one [echad] Jehovah." The Hebrew word echad allows for a unity of more than one.

To be fully human, one must be of the seed of Adam the son of God, and the physical death of all fully humans can only pay the blood price for their own sins, and for their inherited from Adam.

And the angel, (One from the multicelled androgynous body that is God, of whom the Most High, is 'The Son of Man.) said to Mary some 3 months before she was found to be pregnant, that she would later become pregnant and bear a son who the Lord God would make a king as his ancestor David was.

David the ancestor of Jesus was of the seed of Adam as are all truly humans.

Jesus revealed ‘The Son of Man, who is the only begotten son of God, of who it is written in the book of Hebrews,10: 5; “For this reason, when ‘The Anointed One” was about to come into the world, he said to God; “You do not want sacrifices or offerings, but a body you have prepared for me, etc.”

The body that the MOST HIGH in the creation, had already prepared for his Son, was that of the man Jesus.

Hebrew 5: 7-10; “In his life on earth, Jesus made his prayers and requests with loud cries and tears to God who could save him from death. Because he was humble and devoted, God heard him. But even though he was ‘A’ son of God, [Not God’s son or THE Son of God, but ‘A’ son of God, check it out in the appendix of Strong’s Concordance, or The King James translation, the Amplified translation, or The Revised Standard translation. All Israelites are sons of God according to God’s word, see Psalms 82: 6; ‘You are gods,’ I said; ‘all of you are sons of the Most High.’) he learned through suffering to be obedient, when he was made perfect he became the only source through whom salvation could be gained from our Lord God and saviour, who rose Jesus from death and will raise all they, who are united to him also.

‘The Son of Man,’ who is the son that is currently developing within the great androgynous pregnant body of Eve [Mankind] which body will suffer great tribulations in giving birth to the Son of the present MOST HIGH in the creation, has been evolving on the spirits of the righteous, who had paid the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes they may have made in life, who were then separated from the unrighteous dead, and gathered to the evolving spirit of the Anointed one in the bosom of Abraham.

The body that the MOST HIGH had prepared for his Son, was the compilation of all those righteous spirits over whom the second death had no power, that the anointed had evolved to some two thousand years ago, in his ascent to the ends of this cycle of universal activity.

When Jesus, the son of Mary and her half brother Joseph, who were both sired by Alexander Helios/Heli, was about 30, he was baptised by John the first cousin to his mother Mary, and it was then that the Son of God the Most High, descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, “You are my Son, [MY chosen heir and successor] TODAY I have begotten thee.

Spiritual beings do not have the animal power of reproduction, they choose their heir and successor.
This God, ‘The Son of Man’ is he who was chosen by Abraham, as his God. And it was to Abraham that he said, “In blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying, I will multiply you.

And it was this God, who is equal to his father, who said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; “I will raise up for the a prophet just like you from among their own brethren; and I will put MY WORDS into his mouth, and I will punish anyone who does not Heed MY WORDS which he shall speak in MY NAME.”
 
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