The Red Sea is parting again, but this time Moses doesn’t have a hand in it.

shunyadragon said:

No one here is ignorant of the scriptures. You are the one asserting the literal interpretation of the scriptures, that is your right, but no there is no evidence that the scripture of the Bible is historically accurate.

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Whether you accept the scriptures as fact or fiction is irrelevant, if you want to debate those scriptures, at least please know what you are talking about.

You say that no one on this forum is ignorant to the scriptures, I say that there are many on this forum, especially the atheists and agnostics, whose main agenda on this forum is to attack the scriptures, are totally ignorant to the work that they attack.

The Anointed said:

Whether you accept the scriptures as fact or fiction is irrelevant, if you want to debate those scriptures, at least please know what you are talking about.

You say that no one on this forum is ignorant to the scriptures, I say that there are many on this forum, especially the atheists and agnostics, whose main agenda on this forum is to attack the scriptures, are totally ignorant to the work that they attack.

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I don’t know the Bible that well. You certainly do! I was wondering if there are any predictions that came true in the Bible that aren’t ambiguous(not interpretable), specific in nature and have an end date?

So, like, 10 will people die on 18th march 1990 something. This is their names and this is how they died and this was their locations when it happened.

Just curious.

The Anointed said:

Whether you accept the scriptures as fact or fiction is irrelevant,

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It is relevant, because you consider the Pentateuch factually and historically accurate.

if you want to debate those scriptures, at least please know what you are talking about.

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I have made that very very clear that the scriptures particularly the Pentateuch is NOT historically accurate, and when there is specific archaeological and scientific evidence that conflicts with scriptures you side with scriptures. For example your assertion of the age of the sun and planets, and our solar system

You say that no one on this forum is ignorant to the scriptures, I say that there are many on this forum, especially the atheists and agnostics, whose main agenda on this forum is to attack the scriptures, are totally ignorant to the work that they attack.

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I DID NOT say every one on this forum. I was referring to those who you are debating on this thread. and they have shown a reasonable knowledge of the scriptures. @sooda has shown a good knowledge of scripture and has cited things accurately and sources concerning history. I personally have studied the scripture and related literature of over 50 years. The issue is not the knowledge of the scriptures, but your assertion that the scriptures are historically accurate, and they are not, as specifically cited with archaeological and scientific references.

For example: There is overwhelming evidence that the planets did not form before the sun, and our solar system is 4.6 billion years old. .

The Anointed said:

Whether you accept the scriptures as fact or fiction is irrelevant, if you want to debate those scriptures, at least please know what you are talking about.

You say that no one on this forum is ignorant to the scriptures, I say that there are many on this forum, especially the atheists and agnostics, whose main agenda on this forum is to attack the scriptures, are totally ignorant to the work that they attack.

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The Hebrews were a small, landless tribe of unaffiliated Bedouin. The Pentateuch creates a history and identity for them that sets them apart from the other more successful Canaanites. Its NOT history. Its fiction.. and it was created by many authors over a long period of time.. edited, redacted and amended to glorify themselves..

sooda said:

The Hebrews were a small, landless tribe of unaffiliated Bedouin. The Pentateuch creates a history and identity for them that sets them apart from the other more successful Canaanites. Its NOT history. Its fiction.. and it was created by many authors over a long period of time.. edited, redacted and amended to glorify themselves..

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From a small family, the Israelite Shepherd Kings, who made slaves of the Egyptians without striking a blow, after living and interbreeding with the Egyptians for 215 years, came to the land of Canaan which was the legal inheritance of Shem's descendants, as a mighty nation.

The Anointed said:

From a small family, the Israelite Shepherd Kings, who made slaves of the Egyptians without striking a blow, after living and interbreeding with the Egyptians for 215 years, came to the land of Canaan which was the legal inheritance of Shem's descendants, as a mighty nation.

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The Hebrews had NO horses.

sooda said:

The Hebrews had NO horses.

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They did in Egypt! The cavalry men of the Shepherd Kings in there coats of many colours commanded by their general Machir, who died in Egypt;

Joshua 17: 1; " Then allotment was made to the people of Manasseh, for he was the firstborn of Joseph. To Machir the firstborn of Manasseh, the father of Gilead, were allotted Gilead and Bashan, because he was a military hero. But a military hero in Egypt, the land in which he had died.

The Anointed said:

They did in Egypt! The cavalry men of the Shepherd Kings in there coats of many colours commanded by their general Machir, who died in Egypt;

Joshua 17: 1; " Then allotment was made to the people of Manasseh, for he was the firstborn of Joseph. To Machir the firstborn of Manasseh, the father of Gilead, were allotted Gilead and Bashan, because he was a military hero. But a military hero in Egypt, the land in which he had died.

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The Hyksos are not Hebrews and they did have horses, but there's no evidence for horses in Israel. The famed Solomon's stables didn't have 40,000 or 4,000.. It was designed for 450 horses. If Solomon had horses and the stables are not the work of Kings Omri or Ahab, the horses were imported from Egypt.

Perhaps if they dig another 150 years, they will find evidence for horses in Palestine.

sooda said:

The Hyksos are not Hebrews and they did have horses, but there's no evidence for horses in Israel. The famed Solomon's stables didn't have 40,000 or 4,000.. It was designed for 450 horses. If Solomon had horses and the stables are not the work of Kings Omri or Ahab, the horses were imported from Egypt.

Perhaps if they dig another 150 years, they will find evidence for horses in Palestine.

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And who told you that? One of your many atheist authors of the material you use in your attempt to cast doubt on the truths as revealed in the scriptures.

The shepherd Kings who ruled Egypt for a period of time were Israelites descended from Heber, the father of the Hebrew race.

Well, who would have thunk that the horses of the Israelites had come from Egypt.

Even before Joseph's father 'Israel' and his family entered Egypt, for their 215 year sojourn there, Joseph the Governor of the Land was riding around in the royal chariot, with a guard of honor before him crying out; Make way, Make way.

Of course the Israelites had horses and chariots, no matter from where they were imported. You don't know too much about what is recorded in the Holy Scriptures, do you?

The Anointed said:

And who told you that? One of your many atheist authors of the material you use in your attempt to cast doubt on the truths as revealed in the scriptures.

The shepherd Kings who ruled Egypt for a period of time were Israelites descended from Heber, the father of the Hebrew race.

Well, who would have thunk that the horses of the Israelites had come from Egypt.

Even before Joseph's father 'Israel' and his family entered Egypt, for their 215 year sojourn there, Joseph the Governor of the Land was riding around in the royal chariot, with a guard of honor before him crying out; Make way, Make way.

Of course the Israelites had horses and chariots, no matter from where they were imported. You don't know too much about what is recorded in the Holy Scriptures, do you?

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Nope.. There is no archaeological evidence for horses in Palestine.. NO horse bones.. and they didn't have chariots. Further, they didn't ride camels.. The camels were used as beasts of burden but the camel saddle had yet to be invented.

The Hebrews rode donkeys and used them primarily for cartage.

Armies moved on foot .. that's what made the Hyksos so terrifying.. They moved fast, and silently and they could shoot from horseback.

After about 63 BC some Roman officers had horses in Palestine, but there just wasn't enough water or pasture to keep horses.

The Anointed said:

And who told you that? One of your many atheist authors of the material you use in your attempt to cast doubt on the truths as revealed in the scriptures.

The shepherd Kings who ruled Egypt for a period of time were Israelites descended from Heber, the father of the Hebrew race.

Well, who would have thunk that the horses of the Israelites had come from Egypt.

Even before Joseph's father 'Israel' and his family entered Egypt, for their 215 year sojourn there, Joseph the Governor of the Land was riding around in the royal chariot, with a guard of honor before him crying out; Make way, Make way.

Of course the Israelites had horses and chariots, no matter from where they were imported. You don't know too much about what is recorded in the Holy Scriptures, do you?

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Knowing what is recorded in the scriptures is different form what is historically and factually accurate in the scriptures. You tend to ignore the archaeological evidence and historical records in the Egyptian records, to justify a religious agenda without the supporting evidence outside the scriptures.

I will cite a number of contemporary academic sources that document that Hyksos were not Hebrews, and in reality the Hyksos were defeated by the Egyptians, and not expelled except possibly some of the ruling class. The Hyksos were a sophisticated seafaring culture with horses from the Northern Levant/Asiatic origin and had a religion more akin to the Canaanites.

The Biblical claim of a large amount of horses among the Hebrews is clearly greatly exaggerated. At this time period the Hebrews were pastoral tribes in the Hills of Judah culturally related to the Canaanites.

shunyadragon said:

Knowing what is recorded in the scriptures is different form what is historically and factually accurate in the scriptures. You tend to ignore the archaeological evidence and historical records in the Egyptian records, to justify a religious agenda without the supporting evidence outside the scriptures.

I will cite a number of contemporary academic sources that document that Hyksos were not Hebrews, and in reality the Hyksos were defeated by the Egyptians, and not expelled except possibly some of the ruling class. The Hyksos were a sophisticated seafaring culture with horses from the Northern Levant/Asiatic origin and had a religion more akin to the Canaanites.

The Biblical claim of a large amount of horses among the Hebrews is clearly greatly exaggerated. At this time period the Hebrews were pastoral tribes in the Hills of Judah culturally related to the Canaanites.

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I will stick to the biblical evidence, which is backed up by archeology and by earlier historians who were closer to the event.

From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567 B.C.

Genesis 41: After Joseph had revealed to the king that his dreams were a prophecy telling of a seven year period of plenty, which would be followed by a seven year period of severe drought, Joseph is made Governor of all Egypt, and all Egyptians were commanded by the King to obey him. The King removed his royal ring with its engraved seal and put it on the finger of Joseph. He was given the second royal chariot and a guard of honour who went ahead of him crying out, “Make way, make way.” And the King said: I am King, but no one in all of Egypt shall so much as lift a hand or a foot without Joseph’s permission. He gave Joseph an Egyptian wife, Asenath, the daughter of the High priest of Heliopolis, who prophesied that if ever the bones of Joseph left Egypt, the LIGHT of Egypt would go with him. For that reason, a permanent guard was set up to keep watch over the tomb of Joseph, in order that no one could remove the mummified body of Joseph.

During the seven years of plenty, Joseph gathered a percentage of the Egyptian grain crop as a tax, which was stored in silos throughout Egypt. In the early stages of the great seven-year drought, the Egyptians had to buy their grain from Joseph, when their money had all gone they traded their possessions and livestock, after which, they were forced to sign their land over for grain in order to survive.

Genesis 47: 20-21. Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for the king. Every Egyptian was forced to sell their land, because the famine was so severe; Joseph made slaves of all the people from one end of Egypt to the other, without striking a blow.

Taking into account the many other variables too numerous to be bothered about here, and knowing that the records of the different historians, although very close to each other in the dates of the Hyksos dynasty in Egypt, are yet still in conflict with their contemporaries, I believe that the essence of what they are saying is in total harmony with the biblical account, and that with a little more research they will prove to the world that the exodus of the Israelites occurred at the precise time as the expulsion of the Shepherd Kings, and the explosion of the island of Santorini or Thira as it is also known.

If Josephus the historian is correct and the exodus of the Shepherd Kings did occur in 1567 BC, and Jericho was destroyed after they had wandered in the desert for 40 years, then according to the biblical account, the destruction of Jericho would have occurred around 1527 BC. 1567-40=1527.

The Hyksos were described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colours, much like the cloak of many colours that was worn by Joseph the son of Israel and the first of the Hyksos kings, of who it is said in Genesis 50: 23; that he lived to receive the children of Machir the son of Manasseh into the family. And in Judges 5: 14, it is written that the commanders of the army came down from Machir, of who it is said in Joshua 17: 1; that Machir was the firstborn son of Manasseh, the first born of Joseph, and that he was a military hero, and the father of young Gilead.

Gilead the first born of Machir would have been welcomed into the family by Joseph, and presumably, the funeral procession of Young Gilead who died childless beside his father ‘Machir’ in a war against the people of the country that would later carry his name, ‘The land of Gilead’ which land was allocated to the descendants of Machir after the exodus. The funeral procession of Gilead would have been led by his great grandfather Joseph, and buried in his own tomb, which was to be later placed under a permanent guard against tomb robbers, because the high priest of Heliopolis had prophesied that if ever the bones of Joseph left Egypt, the LIGHT of Egypt would go with him.

After the Exodus of the shepherd kings, and the removal of the mummified remains of Joseph, which were to be taken to Shechem and buried there in the land of Israel as per Joseph’s last wish, the Egyptian Guards would have been removed, and any grave robbers who were later confronted with the opened sarcophagus’ of Joseph and his wife in the empty tomb, would have assumed that others had beaten them to it, and would have left empty handed.

Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

Let me repeat that, [Kathleen Kenyon's results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.]

The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.

1562 (minus 38 years) [1562-38=1524 BC.] this would mean that Jericho fell somewhere between 1562 and 1524 BC, close enough to the 40 years after Josephus’ date for the Exodus in 1567. [1567-40=1527 BC]

Continued from post #312.

The fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year, which was the first Passover ever, was the day in which all the first born sons of Egypt were killed. Around that time the volcanic Island of Santorini or Thira as it is also known, which was situated in the Aegean-sea, on the Anatolian plate, which is subject to the forces of the over-riding African Plate that grinds against the Arabian plate in its Northern migration, exploded with many times the force of Krakatoa, which was a volcanic island that exploded in 1883, and that explosion was heard 5,000 kilometres away, and caused a tsunami that killed at least 36,000 people. It has been estimated that when the island of Santorini exploded, 35,000 kilometres of material was lifted into the stratosphere, and that the explosive force would have created tidal waves of anything up to 130 ft high which would have traveled at speeds of around 150 miles per hour.

A cloud, that turned day into night around 1,500 BC, has been recorded in Chinese history, and would have covered all of north Africa. The African and Arabian plates intersect in a line that runs through the Red Sea and up the Jordan valley through the Dead Sea which was created hundreds of years before the explosion of Santorini, when violent underground activity destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were then situated in the Jordan valley and in the days of Lot, that area was described, as like unto the garden of the Lord, with abundant fresh water flowing through it.

Look at the strange phenomenon that was occurring at the time of the Exodus. The cloud that blanketed north Africa and most of Europe, and turned day into a night so dark that a man was not able to recognise his own brother who was standing at arms-length from him. The rain of sulfuric acid that caused so much crop failure and the death of the livestock which were forced to feed on the polluted pastures, the following series of shock waves along the great rift valley and the fractures in the Sini peninsular which is situated on the Arabian plate, the bulging of the earth’s crust beneath the Red Sea which caused a highway to rise from the waters, with its following tremor when it collapsed and tidal waves that rolled in like two walls of water on either side of where the highway had been.

Wisdom of Solomon 19: 7-8, ‘Then was beheld the cloud that shadowed the camp, and dry land rising up out of what was before water, Out of the Red sea an unhindered highway, and a grassy plain rising out of the violent surge.”

Look even where the Israelites camped on the shore of the Red sea, which was smack bang in the middle of a major coal field in Egypt.

The bulging earth rising from the surging sea before them, pressurised gas screaming from the opening fissures creating towering pillars of fire to burn behind them, a strong east wind blew all that night causing the thick smoke to blind the pursuing Egyptians while lighting up the camp of the Israelites on the eastern side of those wild fires.

All these events were caused from pressures that had been built up over tens of thousands of years and would have occurred in their proper time, irrelevant of the Israeli situation. Where the miracle lay, was in the fact that an unseen deity of the future, was able, through his prophet Moses, to organise the events leading up to and including the exodus itself at the precise time in history that this cataclysmic event occurred.

In the book “The Wisdom of Solomon, 16” Solomon has much to say about the days of Moses; he speaks of the strange hails that fell from heaven. Burning balls of different frozen gases, some with the ability to burn even in water, some which burned with a heat so intense that they incinerated anything they came in contact with, while other hail, burned with a cold fire through which animals could walk unharmed.

Solomon also speaks of the cloud that covered the Israelites in the desert and of the Manna that fell from heaven during the night. According to Solomon, the heavenly covering was a cloud by day and a host of stars by night, (a night sky ablaze with falling balls of burning hail stones). Then concerning the heavenly Manna, he says, “And that which was not injured by fire, [Burning hailstones] simply warmed by a faint sun beam melted away.

Each morning the desert floor was covered with mounds of a flaky cellulose substance which looked like coriander seed, and would melt and breed worms and stink if left out in the sun, and yet could be preserved when cooked, and tasted like biscuits mixed with the purest of olive oils.

Carbohydrates are any of a group of chemical compounds, including sugars, starches, and cellulose, containing carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen only, [of which there was an ample supply in the cloud from the volcanic explosion] with the ratio of hydrogen to oxygen atoms usually 2 : 1. Perhaps, if our scientists could simulate the same conditions that occurred in the stratosphere when the island of Thira exploded, they may come up with an inexpensive and environmentally friendly source of food production to feed the starving millions on the earth.

The early Egyptian magicians or scientists, were able to duplicate some of the miracles of God as performed by Moses. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if our magician/scientists of today were able to perform the more mysterious of God’s miracles as seen in the days of Moses, and provide an abundant and cheap source of food to feed the ever growing population on this earth.

As I have already said, all those things that happened in Egypt at that time, were caused from pressures that had built up over many, many, thousands of years. Where the miracle is found, is in the fact that some invisible entity from some other time dimension, was able to instigate the Exodus, at the precise time that the destructive forces beneath the island of Santorini, were beginning to awake.

The Anointed said:

I will stick to the biblical evidence, which is backed up by archeology and by earlier historians who were closer to the event.

From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567 B.C.

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The current archaeological evidence, Egyptian records, and genetics has determined that they were not Hebrews, and they were NOT expelled from Egypt, except possibly some of the ruling class. Josephus is a highly flawed historian and has absolutely no first hand evidence of the historical period of the Hyksos. All current sources including the Encyclopedia Britannica do not conclude that Hyksos translates as 'Shepherd Kings' and does not support that they were Hebrews.

Encyclopedia Britannica is not the current academic reference, and it does not cite Josephus as an authority concerning the Hyksos as being Hebrews. Read read carefully It does cite Josephus, but concludes:
"Hyksos was in fact probably an Egyptian term for “rulers of foreign lands” (heqa-khase), and it almost certainly designated the foreign dynasts rather than an ethnic group. Modern scholarship has identified most of the Hyksos kings’ names as Semitic."
. . . and goes on to describe more the contemporary archaeological view of Hyksos origins. You get an 'F' for citation out of context. More complete academic reference as follows:

From: The Expulsion of the Hyksos - Biblical Archaeology Society

In the Second Intermediate Period (18th–16th centuries B.C.E.), towards the end of the Middle Bronze Age, the West Asian (Canaanite) Hyksos controlled Lower (Northern) Egypt. In the 16th century, Ahmose I overthrew the Hyksos and initiated the XVIII dynasty and the New Kingdom of Egypt.

Recent archaeological discoveries at Tel Habuwa(also known as Tell el-Habua or Tell-Huba), a site associated with ancient Tjaru (Tharo), shed new light on Ahmose’s campaign. A daybook entry in the famous Rhind Mathematical Papyrus notes that Ahmose seized control of Tjaru before laying siege the Hyksos at their capital in Avaris.

Excavations at the site, located two miles east of the Suez Canal, have uncovered evidence of battle wounds on skeletons discovered in two-story administrative structures dating to the Hyksos and New Kingdom occupations. The site showed evidence of burned buildings, as well as massive New Kingdom grain silos that would have been able to feed a large number of Egyptian troops. After Ahmose took the city and defeated the Hyksos, he expanded the town and built several nearby forts to protect Egypt’s eastern border. Tjaru was first discovered in 2003, but until now, the excavation only uncovered the New Kingdom military fort and silos. This new discovery confirms a decisive moment in the expulsion of the Hyksos previously known from textual sources.

Josephus identifies the Israelite Exodus with the expulsion of the Hyksos “shepherd kings.” Read more about archaeological evidence for the Israelites in Egypt and new scholarship on the Exodus in our FREE eBook Ancient Israel in Egypt and the Exodus.

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Does not reflect the current archaeological academic, which gives a more comprehensive knowledge of the Hyksos. Reminder the Encyclopedia does not translate Hyksos as the 'Shepherd Kings.'




Tomb painting from Beni Hasan, Egypt. A figure named Abisha and identified by the title Hyksos leads brightly garbed Semitic clansmen into Egypt to conduct trade. Dating to about 1890 B.C.E., the painting is preserved on the wall of a tomb carved into cliffs overlooking the Nile at Beni Hasan, about halfway between Cairo and Luxor. In the early second millennium B.C.E., numerous Asiatics infiltrated Egypt, some of whom eventually gained control over Lower Egypt for about a century and a half. The governing class of these people became known as the Hyksos, which means “Rulers of Foreign Lands.”

The Hyksos are well known from ancient texts, and their expulsion was recorded in later ancient Egyptian historical narratives. The third-century B.C.E. Egyptian historian Manetho–whose semi-accurate histories stand out as valuable resources for cataloging Egyptian kingship–wrote of the Hyksos’ violent entry into Egypt from the north, and the founding of their monumental capital at Avaris, a city associated with the famous excavations at Tell ed-Dab’a. After the Hyksos were expelled from Egypt, Manetho reports that they wandered the desert before establishing the city of Jerusalem.


While Josephus cites Manetho’s history associating the Israelites with the Hyksos, many modern scholars see problems with Manetho’s conflation of the expulsion of the Hyksos and the Biblical narrative. Manetho lived many centuries after these events took place, and he may have combined two different narratives, wittingly or unwittingly, when associating the Hyksos and Israelites. Ahmose’s defeat of the Hyksos occurred centuries before the traditional date of the Exodus. In addition, the basic premise of the Hyksos and Exodus histories differ: the Hyksos were expelled rulers of Egypt, not slaves, and they were forced out, not pursued.



Learn more about the fortress excavated at Tel Habuwa—the largest discovered to date in Egypt.




The expulsion of the Hyksos may not have been a single event, and many still read Manetho’s texts on the Hyksos expulsion as a record of the Israelites’ Exodus. After the Hyksos were defeated by Ahmose, some Hyksos people likely remained in Egypt, perhaps as a subjugated class. The Egyptian Queen Hatshepsut (1489–1469 B.C.E.) recorded the banishment of a group of Asiatics from Avaris, the former Hyksos capital. While this second expulsion would still have been centuries before the traditional date of the Exodus, there may exist parallels between these events and the Exodus narrative, or the earlier Biblical accounts of Abraham, Sarah and Lot’s own expulsion from Egypt in Genesis 12:19.


Read more about the discoveries at Tel Habuwa.

The Anointed said:

I will stick to the biblical evidence, which is backed up by archeology and by earlier historians who were closer to the event.

From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567 B.C.

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From: Ancient Egyptians were closer to Armenians than to Africans; a new genetics study reveals - PeopleOfAr

One explanation for the ancient Egyptian genetic affinity to Near East and Europe could be the Hyksos invasion. The Hyksos (Egyptian heqa khaseshet, meaning: “ruler(s) of the foreign countries”) were a people of unknown origin who settled in the eastern Nile Delta, some time before 1650 BC and ruled over Egypt well into the Hellenistic era. The Hyksos were often described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors. They were excellent archers and horse riders, who brought chariot warfare to Egypt.

Various theories have been postulated regarding their origin among them the theory of their Hurrian and Indo-European descent. Their way of life certainly resembles that of the Armeno-Aryan peoples of the time. The Hyksos for example practiced horse burials, and their chief deity was a storm God who later became associated with the Egyptian storm and desert god Set. Ancient Armenians worshiped the storm God Teshub/Teisheba. Teshub was later also identified with Aramazd and Hayk.



Furthermore, the Hyksos brought several technical innovations to Egypt, as well as cultural infusions such as new musical instruments and foreign loanwords. The changes introduced include new techniques of bronze working and pottery, new breeds of animals, and new crops. In warfare, they introduced the horse and chariot, the composite bow, improved battle axes, and advanced fortification techniques. All of this strongly suggests Indo-European origin. Robert Drews (1994) in this book “The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East” describes the Hyksos as follows:

“Where the hyksos chiefs who took over Egypt ca. 1650 B.C. may have gotten their chariots and charioteers is not known, but eastern Anatolia is not an unlikely source. The most direct evidence for the importance of Armenia in the development and manufacture of military chariots in the Late Bronze Age comes from Egyptian tombs. Since Egypt lacked the necessary woods, one assumes that the pharaohs regularly purchased from abroad either finished chariots or-after Egyptian woodworkers had perfected their skills-the requisite chariot wood. A tomb inscription from the reign of Amenhotep II declares that the wood for His Majesty’s chariot was brought from “the country of Naharin” (Mitanni). Since Mitanni itself was not wooded, we may suppose that the material come from the mountains to the north of Mitanni. In the case of the fifteenth century chariot now in Florance’s Museo Archeologico, studies of the wood done more than fifty years ago concluded that the chariot was made in Armenia, or quite precisely in the mountainous area bounded on the east by the Caspian, and on the south and west by a diagonal line extending from the southern shores of the Caspian to the Black Sea coast in the vicinity of Trebizond. If Egypt was to some extent dependent upon eastern Anatolia for its chariotry during the Eighteenth Dynasty, there are grounds for suspecting that when the chariot warfare first came to Egypt, it came from Armenia.”

shunyadragon said:

From: Ancient Egyptians were closer to Armenians than to Africans; a new genetics study reveals - PeopleOfAr

One explanation for the ancient Egyptian genetic affinity to Near East and Europe could be the Hyksos invasion. The Hyksos (Egyptian heqa khaseshet, meaning: “ruler(s) of the foreign countries”) were a people of unknown origin who settled in the eastern Nile Delta, some time before 1650 BC and ruled over Egypt well into the Hellenistic era. The Hyksos were often described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors. They were excellent archers and horse riders, who brought chariot warfare to Egypt.

Various theories have been postulated regarding their origin among them the theory of their Hurrian and Indo-European descent. Their way of life certainly resembles that of the Armeno-Aryan peoples of the time. The Hyksos for example practiced horse burials, and their chief deity was a storm God who later became associated with the Egyptian storm and desert god Set. Ancient Armenians worshiped the storm God Teshub/Teisheba. Teshub was later also identified with Aramazd and Hayk.



Furthermore, the Hyksos brought several technical innovations to Egypt, as well as cultural infusions such as new musical instruments and foreign loanwords. The changes introduced include new techniques of bronze working and pottery, new breeds of animals, and new crops. In warfare, they introduced the horse and chariot, the composite bow, improved battle axes, and advanced fortification techniques. All of this strongly suggests Indo-European origin. Robert Drews (1994) in this book “The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East” describes the Hyksos as follows:

“Where the hyksos chiefs who took over Egypt ca. 1650 B.C. may have gotten their chariots and charioteers is not known, but eastern Anatolia is not an unlikely source. The most direct evidence for the importance of Armenia in the development and manufacture of military chariots in the Late Bronze Age comes from Egyptian tombs. Since Egypt lacked the necessary woods, one assumes that the pharaohs regularly purchased from abroad either finished chariots or-after Egyptian woodworkers had perfected their skills-the requisite chariot wood. A tomb inscription from the reign of Amenhotep II declares that the wood for His Majesty’s chariot was brought from “the country of Naharin” (Mitanni). Since Mitanni itself was not wooded, we may suppose that the material come from the mountains to the north of Mitanni. In the case of the fifteenth century chariot now in Florance’s Museo Archeologico, studies of the wood done more than fifty years ago concluded that the chariot was made in Armenia, or quite precisely in the mountainous area bounded on the east by the Caspian, and on the south and west by a diagonal line extending from the southern shores of the Caspian to the Black Sea coast in the vicinity of Trebizond. If Egypt was to some extent dependent upon eastern Anatolia for its chariotry during the Eighteenth Dynasty, there are grounds for suspecting that when the chariot warfare first came to Egypt, it came from Armenia.”

Click to expand...

You say that the Hyksos took over Egypt in 1650. Knowing that Israel was in Egypt for 215 years, this would mean that the Exodus from Egypt occurred in 1435 B.C. some two hundred years after the fall of Jericho, so I am forced to reject your scholarship.

Encarta…… “In the early part of the 17th century B.C., Semetic (Descendants of Shem) invaders (Called Hyksos) swept into Egypt, most likely from Palestine and Syria. They would control Egypt for roughly two centuries------The establishment of a Hyksos dynasty in northern Egypt marked the beginning of the Second intermediate period which lasted for more than 214 years.”

From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- this would mean that they were in Egypt for 160 years, but the ABOUTS could be anything up to some 40 odd years.

The six Kings of the 15th dynasty are given a total of 108 years in the Turin canon, while Josephus gives 260 years, Africanus 284 years, and Eusebius 250 years: take your pick.

According to scripture, the Israelites were in Egypt for 215 years, Moses was 80 when they left, having been born 135 years after they had entered that land, when a new King who was throwing all the new born Israelite boys into the Nile,
I have said previously in this thread, that I believe that it was the explosion of the Island of Thira, which caused the so-called miracles at the precise time of the Exodus. But the exact date of the eruption, however, is still controversial. Radiocarbon dating indicates that the eruption occurred about 1645—1600 BC.[4] These dates, however, conflict with the usual date range from archaeological evidence, which is between about 1550 and 1500 BC.[5] For more discussion, see the article on the Minoan eruption.

And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Joseph the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567B.C., and if the scriptures are correct, and Israel was only in Egypt for 215 years, this would mean that they entered Egypt in 1782 B.C.

Although radiocarbon dating of an olive tree imbedded in lava would appear to indicate a 1600 BCE eruption of Santorini/Thera, that is, if the lava that it was imbedded in was from the actual eruption that devastated the island and its surrounding districts and not from an earlier minor lava flow, there are many archeologists who still believe that the date is contradicted by findings in Egyptian and Theran excavations.

Buried Egyptian and Cypriot pottery found on Thera were dated to a later period than the radiometric dates for the eruption, and, since the conventional Egyptian chronology has been established by numerous archaeological studies, the exact date of the eruption remains controversial.

Because of all the contradicting evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at approximately 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of that olive tree which was buried beneath “A” lava flow from the volcano on Santorini, indicate that the particular lava flow in which the olive tree was imbedded, occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE.

But at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption. This matches the composition of the Thera eruption.

So there you go mate, You stick with your chosen scholarship in your attempt to disprove the scriptures, while I stick to the better scholarship that supports the biblical story of the Shepherd Kings.

shunyadragon said:

From: Ancient Egyptians were closer to Armenians than to Africans; a new genetics study reveals - PeopleOfAr

One explanation for the ancient Egyptian genetic affinity to Near East and Europe could be the Hyksos invasion. The Hyksos (Egyptian heqa khaseshet, meaning: “ruler(s) of the foreign countries”) were a people of unknown origin who settled in the eastern Nile Delta, some time before 1650 BC and ruled over Egypt well into the Hellenistic era. The Hyksos were often described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors. They were excellent archers and horse riders, who brought chariot warfare to Egypt.

Various theories have been postulated regarding their origin among them the theory of their Hurrian and Indo-European descent. Their way of life certainly resembles that of the Armeno-Aryan peoples of the time. The Hyksos for example practiced horse burials, and their chief deity was a storm God who later became associated with the Egyptian storm and desert god Set. Ancient Armenians worshiped the storm God Teshub/Teisheba. Teshub was later also identified with Aramazd and Hayk.



Furthermore, the Hyksos brought several technical innovations to Egypt, as well as cultural infusions such as new musical instruments and foreign loanwords. The changes introduced include new techniques of bronze working and pottery, new breeds of animals, and new crops. In warfare, they introduced the horse and chariot, the composite bow, improved battle axes, and advanced fortification techniques. All of this strongly suggests Indo-European origin. Robert Drews (1994) in this book “The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East” describes the Hyksos as follows:

“Where the hyksos chiefs who took over Egypt ca. 1650 B.C. may have gotten their chariots and charioteers is not known, but eastern Anatolia is not an unlikely source. The most direct evidence for the importance of Armenia in the development and manufacture of military chariots in the Late Bronze Age comes from Egyptian tombs. Since Egypt lacked the necessary woods, one assumes that the pharaohs regularly purchased from abroad either finished chariots or-after Egyptian woodworkers had perfected their skills-the requisite chariot wood. A tomb inscription from the reign of Amenhotep II declares that the wood for His Majesty’s chariot was brought from “the country of Naharin” (Mitanni). Since Mitanni itself was not wooded, we may suppose that the material come from the mountains to the north of Mitanni. In the case of the fifteenth century chariot now in Florance’s Museo Archeologico, studies of the wood done more than fifty years ago concluded that the chariot was made in Armenia, or quite precisely in the mountainous area bounded on the east by the Caspian, and on the south and west by a diagonal line extending from the southern shores of the Caspian to the Black Sea coast in the vicinity of Trebizond. If Egypt was to some extent dependent upon eastern Anatolia for its chariotry during the Eighteenth Dynasty, there are grounds for suspecting that when the chariot warfare first came to Egypt, it came from Armenia.”

Click to expand...

You say that the Hyksos took over Egypt in 1650. Knowing that Israel was in Egypt for 215 years, this would mean that the Exodus from Egypt occurred in 1435 B.C. some one hundred years after the fall of Jericho, so I am forced to reject your scholarship.

Encarta…… “In the early part of the 17th century B.C., Semetic (Descendants of Shem) invaders (Called Hyksos) swept into Egypt, most likely from Palestine and Syria. They would control Egypt for roughly two centuries------The establishment of a Hyksos dynasty in northern Egypt marked the beginning of the Second intermediate period which lasted for more than 214 years.”

From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- this would mean that they were in Egypt for 160 years, but the ABOUTS could be anything up to some 40 odd years.

The six Kings of the 15th dynasty are given a total of 108 years in the Turin canon, while Josephus gives 260 years, Africanus 284 years, and Eusebius 250 years: take your pick.

According to scripture, the Israelites were in Egypt for 215 years, Moses was 80 when they left, having been born 135 years after they had entered that land, when a new King who was throwing all the new born Israelite boys into the Nile,

I have said previously in this thread, that I believe that it was the explosion of the Island of Thira, which caused the so-called miracles at the precise time of the Exodus. But the exact date of the eruption, however, is still controversial. Radiocarbon dating indicates that the eruption occurred about 1645—1600 BC.[4] These dates, however, conflict with the usual date range from archaeological evidence, which is between about 1550 and 1500 BC.[5] For more discussion, see the article on the Minoan eruption.

And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Joseph the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567B.C., and if the scriptures are correct, and Israel was only in Egypt for 215 years, this would mean that they entered Egypt in 1782 B.C.

Although radiocarbon dating of an olive tree imbedded in lava would appear to indicate a 1600 BCE eruption of Santorini/Thera, that is, if the lava that it was imbedded in was from the actual eruption that devastated the island and its surrounding districts and not from an earlier minor lava flow, there are many archeologists who still believe that the date is contradicted by findings in Egyptian and Theran excavations.

Buried Egyptian and Cypriot pottery found on Thera were dated to a later period than the radiometric dates for the eruption, and, since the conventional Egyptian chronology has been established by numerous archaeological studies, the exact date of the eruption remains controversial.

Because of all the contradicting evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at approximately 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of that olive tree which was buried beneath “A” lava flow from the volcano on Santorini, indicate that the particular lava flow in which the olive tree was imbedded, occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE.

But at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption. This matches the composition of the Thera eruption.

So there you go mate, You stick with your chosen scholarship in your attempt to disprove the scriptures, while I stick to the better scholarship that supports the biblical story of the Shepherd Kings.

The Anointed said:

You say that the Hyksos took over Egypt in 1650. Knowing that Israel was in Egypt for 215 years, this would mean that the Exodus from Egypt occurred in 1435 B.C. some one hundred years after the fall of Jericho, so I am forced to reject your scholarship.

Encarta…… “In the early part of the 17th century B.C., Semetic (Descendants of Shem) invaders (Called Hyksos) swept into Egypt, most likely from Palestine and Syria. They would control Egypt for roughly two centuries------The establishment of a Hyksos dynasty in northern Egypt marked the beginning of the Second intermediate period which lasted for more than 214 years.”

From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- this would mean that they were in Egypt for 160 years, but the ABOUTS could be anything up to some 40 odd years.

Click to expand...

Incomplete citations from non-academic sources. Contemporary academic citations, as cited, have determined that Hyksos does not translate to 'Shepherd Kings, and the Hyksos were not Hebrews for far more archaeological evidence then the problem of dates. I already called you out for unethical selective citation of the Britannica Encyclopedia. If you are going to cite the World Book Dictionary (not an academic source) you need to actually cite the complete reference, which is incomplete and does not reflect what you claim.

Again, you are rejecting sound academic objective verifiable archaeological evidence. in favor of a literal Biblical interpretation that has no consistent evidence to support it.

According to scripture, the Israelites were in Egypt for 215 years, Moses was 80 when they left, having been born 135 years after they had entered that land, when a new King who was throwing all the new born Israelite boys into the Nile,

had control of Egypt. The Turin canon would be the closest to the biblical account.​

So there you go mate, You stick with your chosen scholarship in your attempt to disprove the scriptures, while I stick to the better scholarship that supports the biblical story of the Shepherd Kings.

Click to expand...

Your better scholarship does not exist as cited. 'According to scripture' has no relevance unless it is consistently backed by contemporary academic and archaeological reference.
From:
Ancient Egyptians were closer to Armenians than to Africans; a new genetics study reveals - PeopleOfAr
Ancient Egyptians were closer to Armenians than to Africans; a new genetics study reveals
ADMIN JUNE 5, 2017 ADNA, ANCIENT ARMENIA, ANCIENT DNA, ANCIENT EGYPT, EGYPTIAN DNA, GENETICS 31 COMMENTS 50480 VIEWS

A recent study sheds light on the age old question “who were the ancient Egyptians?”

A team of international scientists from the University of Tuebingen and the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Germany analyzed the DNA of 93 Egyptian mummies dating from approximately 1400 BCE to 400 CE. The evidence from their study reveals a surprising close relation to ancient people of the Near East such as Armenians.

Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians, who received additional sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times.

We find that ancient Egyptians are most closely related to Neolithic and Bronze Age samples in the Levant, as well as to Neolithic Anatolian and European populations.

Furthermore, the researchers found that over the 1,300-year period that the mummies represented, the population genetics of the ancient Egypt stayed surprising stable, despite foreign invasions.

The genetics of the Abusir el-Meleq community did not undergo any major shifts during the 1,300-year timespan we studied, suggesting that the population remained, genetically, relatively unaffected by foreign conquest and rule.

said Wolfgang Haak, from the Max Planck Institutes.


Map of Egypt depicting the location of the archaeological site Abusir-el Meleq (orange X) and the location of the modern Egyptian samples (orange circles)
The sub-Saharan African genetic influx seems to have only started after the Roman period, which coincides with the advent of monotheism in particularly Islam. Hence why modern Egyptians are more genetically shifted towards African people than the ancient Egyptians.

We found the ancient Egyptian samples falling distinct from modern Egyptians, and closer towards Near Eastern and European samples. In contrast, modern Egyptians are shifted towards sub-Saharan African populations.

So it turns out that modern Egyptians share more genetic ancestry with Sub-Saharan Africans than ancient Egyptians did, while the ancient Egyptians show a closer genetic affinity with ancient people from the Near East and the Levant like Armenians.

Where is the archaeological evidence that Hebrews had horses in the Hills of Judah?

The Anointed said:

From a small family, the Israelite Shepherd Kings, who made slaves of the Egyptians without striking a blow, after living and interbreeding with the Egyptians for 215 years, came to the land of Canaan which was the legal inheritance of Shem's descendants, as a mighty nation.

Click to expand...

The Hyksos weren't Hebrews and they certainly didn't enslave the Egyptians. The Hyksos were famous for their horsemanship and light, fast chariots as well as composite bows that could be fired from horseback.

The Israelites didn't have horses or camels.. They walked and donkeys were their beasts of cartage.

Israel was NOT a mighty nation except in their national narrative. They were a small, hilltop fortress of less than 10 acres in bandit territory on the trade route between Egypt and Babylon.

sooda said:

The Hyksos weren't Hebrews and they certainly didn't enslave the Egyptians. The Hyksos were famous for their horsemanship and light, fast chariots as well as composite bows that could be fired from horseback.

The Israelites didn't have horses or camels.. They walked and donkeys were their beasts of cartage.

Israel was NOT a mighty nation except in their national narrative. They were a small, hilltop fortress of less than 10 acres in bandit territory on the trade route between Egypt and Babylon.

Click to expand...

The Israelites were the Hyksos Shepherd Kings, they did enslave the Egyptians, by forcing them to sell their Land for the grain that had been stored up through the seven years of plenty, they did fight wars in horse drawn chariots, until they were subdued, about a hundred and twenty odd years into their sojourn in that country, when the new Egyptian King demanded that all new born Israelite boys be thrown to the crocodiles in the river Nile.

Still trying to bring the scriptures into disrepute, you naughty girl, you do know that you will be punished, don't you?