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Theism, Agnosticism, & Atheism: Which Is Logically The Weakest?

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I pose the question of the title, and then I'll have to wait for your responses until Saturday as I'm outta town tomorrow. First, to define terms:

Theism: a belief that there is at least one deity.

Agnosticism: not knowing if there's a deity or deities.

Atheism: a belief there are no deities.


Which is logically the weakest and why? I say it's the latter by far.

See yas Saturday, so play nice now.

Let me try a different example. Which of the following is the weakest position?

Unicornism: A belief hat there is at least one invisible pink unicorn

Agnosticornism: not knowing if there are invisible pink unicorns

Aunicornism: a belief that there are no invisible pink unicorns.

Of these, I would choose unicornism. How about you?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
With this, I would be somewhere in the bottom right section. I lack belief in God, and I'm very confident of my position, but I wouldn't say 100% confident.

As such, it seems to me that agnostic atheism is a fairly strong position. It doesn't accept anything for which there is little to no reliable evidence, yet it does not rule it out. It remains open to the possibility, but it would require some pretty strong evidence to be convinced.
Even with the "agnostic means I'm not 100% sure" definition (which I don't think is correct), I'd say that applying the label "agnostic" implies a higher level of uncertainty than all the other cases when you don't apply the label.

To me, even with the "I don't know" definition, it has to mean something more than just the idea that all human knowledge is imperfect, or that induction can't yield 100% uncertainty.

For instance: should I say that I'm "agnostic" about the number of grocery stores in my town? I think there are 3, but I also remember the news reports from when I was a kid and a plaza got destroyed by a natural gas explosion, so I know that there's definitely a non-zero chance that the number of grocery stores in my town is less than it was the last time I checked.

If someone's level of uncertainty about the existence of gods is similar to my level of uncertainty about the number of grocery stores in my town, then I think it would be unreasonable to label that person as "agnostic."
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You opened by saying: I'm talking about more than just the existence of their gods. But then your hypothetical had to do with existence.
That's right: a claim about something else, which they use to justify their position about the existence of a god.

Then you described a claim that amounted to anecdotal evidence for the existence of God. A single claim cannot be accepted as true or denied as false.
But that's precisely what anyone who claims that the existence of gods is unknowable is doing. They're saying that every claim that could be used to demonstrate the existence of a god must be false.

However, if there suddenly were thousands of such claims, the possibility that some of those claims might be true rises in minds unbiased on the topic.
I'm not sure I agree with you, but I do note that there have been probably millions of miracle claims by theists of various types, and agnostics still claim that the existence of gods is unknowable... and thereby claim that every one of those claimed miracles either didn't happen or don't point to any gods.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
First of all, I'd propose that we could talk about something else rather than God, since we are having a discussion about believing in a thing, not necessarily religious faith. Bertrand Russel used the example of a teapot in orbit near Mars, and that will suffice. I think that will make it easier to have a discussion about believing things and why we believe them without introducing religious faith into the mix. So, I'll use the teapot.

Secondly, I disagree with your definitions. I find the following diagram much closer to how I would phrase things.

Gnostic_Agnostic_Atheist.png


With this, I would be somewhere in the bottom right section. I lack belief in God, and I'm very confident of my position, but I wouldn't say 100% confident.

As such, it seems to me that agnostic atheism is a fairly strong position. It doesn't accept anything for which there is little to no reliable evidence, yet it does not rule it out. It remains open to the possibility, but it would require some pretty strong evidence to be convinced.

Going back to the earlier teapot analogy, I'm sure you aren't going around saying, "I absolutely INSIST that there is no teapot near Mars! I am absolutely convinced that such a thing is utterly impossible!!!" Such a position is analogous to what would be held by a gnostic atheist. The far more rational thing to say would be, "I don't believe that there is a teapot near Mars, since there's no explanation that I've been told of that holds up to scrutiny. However, I can't deny that there could be some explanation that I'm unaware of, and so I can't claim for certain that the teapot doesn't exist." That is the position of the agnostic atheist.

To continue the analogy, the gnostic theist would claim that there can't be any doubt at all that the teapot is there, it absolutely MUST be there, and anyone who can't see that is a fool. This is clearly a ridiculous position. And the agnostic theist would claim that even though there is no indisputable proof, it is clearly more likely that the teapot is there than not, so we should believe that the teapot is there, even without sufficient evidence.

However, assuming that you disagree with my criticisms of your definitions, I still don't see how atheism is the weakest in your original argument. If you are claiming that it is weakest because it is making an argument of certain knowledge, then theism must be just as weak.

Would you need such an elabourate chart to
work out the different ways of not believing in
Bigfoot?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Let me try a different example. Which of the following is the weakest position?

Unicornism: A belief hat there is at least one invisible pink unicorn

Agnosticornism: not knowing if there are invisible pink unicorns

Aunicornism: a belief that there are no invisible pink unicorns.

Of these, I would choose unicornism. How about you?
That depends. How about rainbows?

ec21999454db1ac19416f6bb59c60dc6.jpg
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Which is logically the weakest and why? I say it's the latter by far.
As others have already pointed out, one can be both agnostic and atheist, but your OP either ignorantly or dishonestly paints all atheism as "gnostic atheism". I'd really like to know which is driving you in the OP - ignorance or dishonesty. I really don't see any other option. You're either ignorant-of or ignoring the fact that theism/atheism speaks to belief, and gnostic/agnostic speaks to knowledge, or you understand that but are trying to pigeonhole all atheists into the somewhat less defensible position of declaring that god doesn't exist. You've been around on this site for quite some time, and so I am inclined to believe that this has been pointed out to you, or you've read threads in which it was pointed out to others probably dozens of times. And that would take the "ignorance" option off the table... leaving you with "dishonesty." I don't suppose you'll reply to me though. Why would you? It is likely too scary a thought, isn't it?

At any rate... I don't see how the answer is anything but that theism is the weakest position. To posit a God with nearly any attributes at all, one has to fabricate things that are not demonstrably in existence, and make claims for those things like "just because you can't see/find/detect/sense it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist." Here's a short list:

  • If God can perceive the universe - you have to fabricate methods for perceiving the universe that do not involve physical implements (eyes/ears/nose/nerves/etc.) because those are physical, but remain the ONLY method we have EVER encountered for perceiving anything
  • If God can read people's thoughts - you have to fabricate His method for doing so, because each of us necessarily stores information in our brains in different ways and in different places, such that retrieval of a similar thought is dissimilar from individual to individual. You have to grant God some unknown/unknowable way to somehow translate all forms of dissimilar information like this for all people on Earth all at once. You may as well just say "magic" and be done with it, honestly.
  • If God exists outside space/time - you have to fabricate a realm that somehow doesn't adhere to our universe's "constraints" of space or time - and you must assert that it does exist while not knowing whether or not it is even a possibility.
  • If God can create things without needing raw materials - YOU (the theist) have to fabricate a method by which something can come from nothing. How ironic is that, huh? This is the old theist stand-by - stating that "something can't come from nothing" - as if it is so obvious - and yet you must grant God the ability to make that thing a reality. He has to be able to create using no raw materials - creating something, without using anything pre-existing. Sure you can cheat and say "He uses Himself!" - but guess what? This is just more fabrication!

There are loads more claims about God like these that have absolutely zero evidentiary or factual support. Any attribute you could come up with that grants God some ability beyond anything we've encountered in reality comes along with a fabrication - make-believe - pretending. Does atheism do this? Make assertion after assertion about all sorts of wide and varied topics, without any support whatsoever? What seems more logical to you, honestly?
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
That's right: a claim about something else, which they use to justify their position about the existence of a god.


But that's precisely what anyone who claims that the existence of gods is unknowable is doing. They're saying that every claim that could be used to demonstrate the existence of a god must be false.


I'm not sure I agree with you, but I do note that there have been probably millions of miracle claims by theists of various types, and agnostics still claim that the existence of gods is unknowable... and thereby claim that every one of those claimed miracles either didn't happen or don't point to any gods.

I think the "unknowable" properly refers to
sonething like "undetectable by any currently
known means."

Now, if such god as there might be would care
to change that, then it would be knowable.

There are a lot of mermaid, bigfoot, flying
saucer and Elvis sightings. People do still
"claim" that their existence is "unknowable".

At least until, like with "god", they make themselves
"manifest".
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
I pose the question of the title, and then I'll have to wait for your responses until Saturday as I'm outta town tomorrow. First, to define terms:

Theism: a belief that there is at least one deity.

Agnosticism: not knowing if there's a deity or deities.

Atheism: a belief there are no deities.


Which is logically the weakest and why? I say it's the latter by far.

See yas Saturday, so play nice now.

Weakest at what aspect?
Would it be salvation when the world suddenly ends?
Would it be material possessions in this life?
Would it be a happily married life?


With regards to Theism - this is too wide a scope.
There are a variety and diversity of beliefs
Either one of them is true or the whole enchilada are going to the bin.

There is no diversity or variety in Agnosticism or Atheism so those are about right.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I like the chart. You say you fall in the bottom right. May I ask what keeps you from being 100% sure? Also this is for you @Subduction Zone

If you are like me nd go by evidence you should be 100% sure
- the flood never happened
- we evolved from apes
- the universe is 13+by old
- earth is 4+ billion years old
- the universe came from a singularity
- life arose naturally

So what keeps you from being 100% about god not existing?

Firstly? One must define "god" in order to proceed.

For specific and described values of "god"? I *am* 100% sure these do not exist.

For example: the bible's god? 100% sure. Because the bible describes "a married bachelor" -- an impossible thing, which cannot exist.

For other values of "god"? I am less certain.

But. Undefined values of "god"? Absolutely worthless, and in truth-- without any useful meaning as well. This category includes most values of deist gods.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I pose the question of the title, and then I'll have to wait for your responses until Saturday as I'm outta town tomorrow. First, to define terms:

Theism: a belief that there is at least one deity.

Agnosticism: not knowing if there's a deity or deities.

Atheism: a belief there are no deities.


Which is logically the weakest and why? I say it's the latter by far.

See yas Saturday, so play nice now.

Pssst: Strawman definitions, above.

Nice fail, there-- you ought to try again-- but knowing you? You lack the education...
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Your reasoning is flawed here because you haven't allowed for the possibility that the theist's claims about God can be false but that doesn't deny the possible existence of a Creator. In other words, if a Creator exists, the founders of religion might have been just as unaware of its nature as the atheist.
Another point here:

A god is an object of worship, so a creator (regardless of capital letters) that was completely unknown to humanity would not be a god.

If we want to expand our definition of "god" to include things that humanity doesn't worship, then any "god" that's unknown to humanity certainly isn't the god referred to in any human god-concept.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
But that's precisely what anyone who claims that the existence of gods is unknowable is doing. They're saying that every claim that could be used to demonstrate the existence of a god must be false.
You are applying your own rigid definition to the word "unknowable" and assuming that most agnostics irrationally think that way.

I'm not sure I agree with you, but I do note that there have been probably millions of miracle claims by theists of various types, and agnostics still claim that the existence of gods is unknowable... and thereby claim that every one of those claimed miracles either didn't happen or don't point to any gods.
Millions of anecdotal claims are not evidence of existence but they are evidence of the possibility. That's one reason why agnostics allow the possible existence that atheists deny. It's the atheist who logically denies that any of those anecdotal claims might be true not the agnostic.
 
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Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
As others have already pointed out, one can be both agnostic and atheist, but your OP either ignorantly or dishonestly paints all atheism as "gnostic atheism". I'd really like to know which is driving you in the OP - ignorance or dishonesty. I really don't see any other option. You're either ignoring the fact that theism/atheism speaks to belief, and gnostic/agnostic speaks to knowledge, or you understand that but are trying to pigeonhole all atheists into the somewhat less defensible position of declaring that god doesn't exist. You've been around on this site for quite some time, and so I am inclined to believe that this has been pointed out to you, or you've read threads in which it was pointed out to others probably dozens of times. And that would take the "ignorance" option off the table... leaving you with "dishonesty." I don't suppose you'll reply to me though. Why would you? It is likely too scary a thought, isn't it?

At any rate... I don't see how the answer is anything but that theism is the weakest position. To posit a God with nearly any attributes at all, one has to fabricate things that are not demonstrably in existence, and make claims for those things like "just because you can't see/find/detect/sense it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist." Here's a short list:

  • If God can perceive the universe - you have to fabricate methods for perceiving the universe that do not involve physical implements (eyes/ears/nose/nerves/etc.) because those are physical, but remain the ONLY method we have EVER encountered for perceiving anything
  • If God can read people's thoughts - you have to fabricate His method for doing so, because each of us necessarily stores information in our brains in different ways and in different places, such that retrieval of a similar thought is dissimilar from individual to individual. You have to grant God some unknown/unknowable way to somehow translate all forms of dissimilar information like this for all people on Earth all at once. You may as well just say "magic" and be done with it, honestly.
  • If God exists outside space/time - you have to fabricate a realm that somehow doesn't adhere to our universe's "constraints" of space or time - and you must assert that it does exist while not knowing whether or not it is even a possibility.
  • If God can create things without needing raw materials - YOU (the theist) have to fabricate a method by which something can come from nothing. How ironic is that, huh? This is the old theist stand-by - stating that "something can't come from nothing" - as if it is so obvious - and yet you must grant God the ability to make that thing a reality. He has to be able to create using no raw materials - creating something, without using anything pre-existing. Sure you can cheat and say "He uses Himself!" - but guess what? This is just more fabrication!

There are loads more claims about God like these that have absolutely zero evidentiary or factual support. Any attribute you could come up with that grants God some ability beyond anything we've encountered in reality comes along with a fabrication - make-believe - pretending. Does atheism do this? Make assertion after assertion about all sorts of wide and varied topics, without any support whatsoever? What seems more logical to you, honestly?

Having had direct experience with the OP? I can answer that one: Dishonesty.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I pose the question of the title, and then I'll have to wait for your responses until Saturday as I'm outta town tomorrow. First, to define terms:

Theism: a belief that there is at least one deity.

Agnosticism: not knowing if there's a deity or deities.

Atheism: a belief there are no deities.


Which is logically the weakest and why? I say it's the latter by far.

See yas Saturday, so play nice now.

Christianity = Jesus = God = created logic

Agnosticism = Honest explorers and inquirers

Atheism = Claims logic against creator of logic, while taking on as axioms "little things" like logic exists, eternally, without having been created

Hmmm...
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Another point here:

A god is an object of worship, so a creator (regardless of capital letters) that was completely unknown to humanity would not be a god.

If we want to expand our definition of "god" to include things that humanity doesn't worship, then any "god" that's unknown to humanity certainly isn't the god referred to in any human god-concept.
Of course not. I thought I cleared that up earlier when I noted that one might believe in the possibility of a Creator but deny the existence of the gods claimed by religion.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Firstly? One must define "god" in order to proceed.
Do we?

You don't need a complete definition of "god" to be a theist. All you need is to know that a particular thing you believe in is a god. You can still be a theist without having "god" fully defined.

You don't need any sort of definition of "god" to be an atheist. If "god" is undefined, then it's trivial to say that you accept no claims of the existence of a god. A person can't conceive of something as true if they can't conceive of it at all.

I think - though I'm not sure - that the only position that needs a definition of "god" is agnosticism.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
While theism is a belief in the existence of a god or gods, it's especially a belief in a creator(s) of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a relation with his creatures. And, atheism isn't a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Often I hear atheist complain about theists defining atheism as a "denial of a belief in God." And the real definition of atheism is just a lack of belief in God or gods.

I think the statement above is of the same type but the opposite. I think this idea is the atheists trying to define what theism is by claiming God is a particular way. Not everyone believes in God the way atheists believe in God. Many theists have a deeper more subtle interpretation of how God operates in the World. The idea God is "intervening in it and sustaining a relation with his creatures" is a point of view from the philosophy of materialism or realism. Many theist believe in a holy trinity type interpretation of how God operates in the World. Many people believe in a pantheistic type God.

I think how God operates in the World is very subtle. We do not live in a clockwork Universe. We do not live in a machine. We do not live in Matrix like simulation where computer instructions perfectly execute the laws of physics. Otherwise, quantum mechanics would be more like Newtonian physics.

I think God is why energy exists and moves at all. God is the IT that decides which quantum state is realized and the exact moment radio active decay occurs. God is why electrons move at all. People say charge is why elections move. This not why that is how electrons behave. God is our experience in the Universe. The power of God compels us.

I don't think the idea of God is as simple as an imaginary friend virtually holding your hand and granting you wishes through prayers. But atheists insist that this is the only type of God that exists.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You are applying your own rigid definition to the word "unknowable" and assuming that most agnostics irrationally think that way.
The definition I'm using is "impossible to be known." Do you have a different one?

Millions of anecdotal claims are not evidence of existence but they are evidence of the possibility. That's one reason why agnostics allow the possible existence that atheists deny. It's the atheist who logically denies that any of those anecdotal claims might be true not the agnostic.
Atheists don't necessarily deny anything. They can, but "I'm not convinced" (or "what's a god?") is firmly within the scope of atheism.

Even if you're saying that we can't conclude right now that any gods exist, there are already many of these anecdotal claims already out there. Those claims - and the arguments supporting them - are part of the body of evidence for the existence of gods. Anyone who argues that the evidence we have doesn't support gods is passing judgement on all of those claims.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Christianity = Jesus = God = created logic

Agnosticism = Honest explorers and inquirers

Atheism = Claims logic against creator of logic, while taking on as axioms "little things" like logic exists, eternally, without having been created

Hmmm...

You have just deified logic. Are you sure you want to do that?

Is math created? How about chaos as in iterative mathematical non-linear equations which generate causal outcomes that are impossible to predict?

Was evil created?
 
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