The Power Of Prayer . . . . Or Not

1213 said:

I think it is more about giving permission to God to act.

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Boy, of anybody in the universe I would think it would be god who least needs our permission to act.

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Prayer is an important mean of connection to God, submission to him, believing in him and his power and it pertains to obeying his order by an obedient follower leading at the end to peace and prosper of the community.
Prayer is one of 5 fundamental pillars of Islam, If any of these pillars collapsed or demolished by someone intentionally, then his Islam collapsed as well (He is not Muslim any more)
The 5 pillars are
1) Bearing witness that there is no God except Allah and Muhammed is his messenger
2) doing the 5 prayers in each 24 hours in time (dawn, mid-day, afternoon, sunset and evening)
3) Giving out Zakat: yearly money paid by the rich to support the poor and community need; about 2.5% of saved money in a year when it tantamount to certain level; about 25 euro for each 1000 euro. Zakat is also imposed on stored jewellery and produced crops on harvesting time.
4) Fasting the month of Ramadan if the person is healthy
5) doing pilgrimage to Macca once in the life time after being adult and having the capability ( health/financial support) otherwise the person can be exempted.
Pillar 1 & 2 are the most essential since nothing can drop them. Nothing can exempt the prayer. If the person is severely sick still he should pray in the posture that suits him lying on bed, sitting down or whatsoever. normal Muslim prayer consists of movements between kneeling, lifting from kneeling, prostration and lifting from prostration to standing erect posture. Quran is recited on the standing position while on the other postures the Muslim do supplication and litany to his lord. A prayer would take about 5 minutes.

Prayer is a "lost" magical art. It has become rote recitations or simple wish-making. Prayer originally was a process of concentrated visualization, combined with emotional and mental energy, properly grounded to the physical through proper vocalization. The spoken Word became in essence praying, this was first understood by the ancient Egyptians in the way of Affirmations and made manifest in (Heka) vibrational magic. Efforts were made to align sound with the principles of a cosmic order (natural ordering of the universe) which perhaps could be seen as a LOGOS, the dialog with that part of your Self that has the ability to create any condition you need or desire. The invocation within a prayer unites our meditative state of consciousness with the power of the Word and our innate force of Will.

Skwim said:

Curiously, I came across a Mormon website on prayer.

In it, it lists "four steps to prayer" which are

1) Begin your prayer [how to address god]

2) Have a conversation with God [the content of your prayer]

3) End your prayer [what to say when you're all done]

4) Act on your righteous desires, which is explained as "There is wisdom in the saying, “Pray as if everything depends on the Lord, then work as if everything depends on you.” It is in the process of doing that we often get guidance and help from God."​

The fourth step here doesn't seem to be a step in prayer at all, but rather simple advice about how to proceed from then on. In any case, the real meat of the prayer lies in the "conversation" one is suppose to conduct with god. As stated in #3 one should:

"Speak from your heart and share your hopes and desires as well as your worries and problems. You can ask Him for help, direction, forgiveness, or healing. Whatever is on your mind, bring it to Him, acknowledging that His wisdom and timing are greater than yours. You can ask Him what He wants for you.

Share your feelings with God about others. You can pray for their needs or ask for ways you can love and help them.

Express appreciation to God for all the blessings in your life. Even challenges can be a blessing. This helps us feel humble, which keeps our hearts and minds more open to God's answers."​

Now, I have no issue with someone deriving a benefit from sharing one's hopes, desires, worries, and problems with their god. To me the benefit is purely a psychological one. One little different than what a young child may get from sharing with her teddy bear. However, the idea that one may derive god's help by asking for it is a bit problematic.

To me it implies that god is ready to help people, but only if they actually ask for it. As an omniscient being god is fully aware of your needs, but isn't about to lift a finger to help out unless you get down on your hands and knees, clasp your hands, bow your head, and utter those words that will rouse him into action.

As a non-Christian, this seems quite petty if not all out brutish and cruel: "I don't really care if you suffer or not, but as long as you asked me, sure I'll give you a break, but just keep in mind, it's only because you asked." Of course this isn't at all fool proof. Many times god will ignore prayers of help, and go on with other tasks at hand, either because you're not worthy of his assistance or he's simply not in the mood. I don't say this sarcastically, but only because a whole lot of people offer up a whole lot of prayers that go unanswered.

So what's the deal with the loving, omnibenevolent god of Abraham that he needs to be asked before lending a helping hand, which may or may not get his attention?
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Paul said: "He that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him." (Heb 11:6)
If we doubt that God will fulfill his goodwill towards us then we fail to fulfill a requirement of our prayer being answered, faith.

Additionally those who show contempt for God's law pray in vain. The God of Israel, Jehovah, once felt compelled to say to hypocritical worshippers:"even though you make many prayers, I am not listening;..(Isa 1:15)

Reading your post I have to ask myself, are we really in a position to dictate to our creator conditions on how or why he listens to, or answers, our prayers ?
And can we really expect God to answer our prayer if we believe it's just a psychological exercise ?

On the other hand, we are assured that the true God will always listen to the sincere prayers of worshippers who are doing their best to serve him according to his will.

This does not that mean, though, that he will grant our their every request,
But we can be confident that there is alway a valid reaon for not answering prayers as Scriptural precedents and Bible understanding can confirm.

Neuropteron said:

Paul said: "He that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him." (Heb 11:6)
If we doubt that God will fulfill his goodwill towards us then we fail to fulfill a requirement of our prayer being answered, faith.

we are assured that the true God will always listen to the sincere prayers of worshippers who are doing their best to serve him according to his will.

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How nice of god. He sets us these little requirements and if, for whatever reason, be it ignorance or honest doubt, If I don't go along with the requirements as Paul describes, god isn't going to give a rat's *** what my needs may be. He ain't answering.

Nice guy.

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Skwim said:

Curiously, I came across a Mormon website on prayer.

In it, it lists "four steps to prayer" which are

1) Begin your prayer [how to address god]

2) Have a conversation with God [the content of your prayer]

3) End your prayer [what to say when you're all done]

4) Act on your righteous desires, which is explained as "There is wisdom in the saying, “Pray as if everything depends on the Lord, then work as if everything depends on you.” It is in the process of doing that we often get guidance and help from God."​

The fourth step here doesn't seem to be a step in prayer at all, but rather simple advice about how to proceed from then on. In any case, the real meat of the prayer lies in the "conversation" one is suppose to conduct with god. As stated in #3 one should:

"Speak from your heart and share your hopes and desires as well as your worries and problems. You can ask Him for help, direction, forgiveness, or healing. Whatever is on your mind, bring it to Him, acknowledging that His wisdom and timing are greater than yours. You can ask Him what He wants for you.

Share your feelings with God about others. You can pray for their needs or ask for ways you can love and help them.

Express appreciation to God for all the blessings in your life. Even challenges can be a blessing. This helps us feel humble, which keeps our hearts and minds more open to God's answers."​

Now, I have no issue with someone deriving a benefit from sharing one's hopes, desires, worries, and problems with their god. To me the benefit is purely a psychological one. One little different than what a young child may get from sharing with her teddy bear. However, the idea that one may derive god's help by asking for it is a bit problematic.

To me it implies that god is ready to help people, but only if they actually ask for it. As an omniscient being god is fully aware of your needs, but isn't about to lift a finger to help out unless you get down on your hands and knees, clasp your hands, bow your head, and utter those words that will rouse him into action.

As a non-Christian, this seems quite petty if not all out brutish and cruel: "I don't really care if you suffer or not, but as long as you asked me, sure I'll give you a break, but just keep in mind, it's only because you asked." Of course this isn't at all fool proof. Many times god will ignore prayers of help, and go on with other tasks at hand, either because you're not worthy of his assistance or he's simply not in the mood. I don't say this sarcastically, but only because a whole lot of people offer up a whole lot of prayers that go unanswered.

So what's the deal with the loving, omnibenevolent god of Abraham that he needs to be asked before lending a helping hand, which may or may not get his attention?
.

,

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1) Begin your prayer [how to address god]

2) Have a conversation with God [the content of your prayer]

3) End your prayer [what to say when you're all done]

4) Act on your righteous desires, which is explained as "There is wisdom in the saying, “Pray as if everything depends on the Lord, then work as if everything depends on you.”

Seems to me you'd be better off just starting and ending with step 4. Kind of reminds me of Granny's famous cure for the common cold. You just drink her elixir twice a day and your cold will be gone within 7 to 10 days. Works every time.

Skwim said:

To me the benefit is purely a psychological one. One little different than what a young child may get from sharing with her teddy bear

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I have heard people say "Love is God" ... maybe it's a universal Law (like gravity) that if a human expresses Love that "magic might happen"

Skwim said:

However, the idea that one may derive god's help by asking for it is a bit problematic.

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I also figured out that it's best to only "help when the other asks for it (is willing to accept my help)". So not problematic to me.

Skwim said:

To me it implies that god is ready to help people, but only if they actually ask for it

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Okay, I can understand that you see it that way. I see it different ... in economics there is a Law "demand creates it's own supply"

Skwim said:

As an omniscient being god is fully aware of your needs, but isn't about to lift a finger to help out unless you get down on your hands and knees, clasp your hands, bow your head, and utter those words that will rouse him into action.

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Some religious people believe this, I do not believe in such a way. First of all I do not believe in God "being a person or something I can grasp". Second I have experienced that "magic can happen" even without me asking ... just "me being needy of help" was all there was

Skwim said:

As a non-Christian, this seems quite petty if not all out brutish and cruel: "I don't really care if you suffer or not, but as long as you asked me, sure I'll give you a break, but just keep in mind, it's only because you asked." Of course this isn't at all fool proof. Many times god will ignore prayers of help, and go on with other tasks at hand, either because you're not worthy of his assistance or he's simply not in the mood. I don't say this sarcastically, but only because a whole lot of people offer up a whole lot of prayers that go unanswered.

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Interesting point you make here ... "as a non-Christian". Very true ... I do not believe that Christians are the only ones "being cared for by `God`"

Many, many times (most of the times indeed prayers go unanswered). Sometimes prayers do get answered (I do not pray to God) as I have experienced. But I have experenced more times that they don't get answered ... I have experienced that if I really need then help will be there (I am still alive). But I do believe it works miracles to put in a lot of effort myself most of the time.

Skwim said:

So what's the deal with the loving, omnibenevolent god of Abraham that he needs to be asked before lending a helping hand, which may or may not get his attention?

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My Master taught me that "we don't need to ask ... as our problems are already known, but it's okay (not bad) to ask, though you actually fool yourself into implying thereby that your problem is not known".

My favorite is actually step #4:

Act on your righteous desires, which is explained as: There is wisdom in the saying, “Pray as if everything depends on the Lord, then work as if everything depends on you."

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This seems to me to translate, roughly, to "And finally, don't be so dumb as to think that God is actually going to handle anything... get out there and do the work you think needs doing."

If you want something done right... don't just leave it to God.

Other than providing wealth and power to those who choose to exploit the ignorance, desperation and hopes of others, is there at least one objective, verifiable example of anything that is directly related to the power of prayer? Is there any evidence that the power of prayer can heal the chronically sick, or the mentally and physically handicapped? Can the power of prayer remove poverty or stop crime? Is the power of prayer something greater than luck, chance, or coincidence? Experiments and tests thus far, have all failed to verify/demonstrate the power of prayer, regardless of what method is used, what the religious ideology is, or how sincere the belief is. This means that no matter how much you may pray for something to become true, the results will be no better than using a rabbit's foot. Although in many cases, simply knowing that many people were praying for you was more detrimental to your health, than not knowing.

Making excuses for the failures of prayer is self-serving at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst. If your prayers are fulfilled then it's your fault, but if your prayers are not fulfilled, then it's still your fault. This is the win-win position of the power of prayer. Therefore, any excuse will be valid.

So, without any evidence to demonstrate the power of prayer, it becomes just another "carrot on a stick", to instill a perception of another layer of religious depth and complexity, for those convinced that they need divine intervention in their lives.

stvdv said:

I have heard people say "Love is God" ... maybe it's a universal Law (like gravity) that if a human expresses Love that "magic might happen"

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From the 10th Master - among other quotes

stvdv said:

I also figured out that it's best to only "help when the other asks for it (is willing to accept my help)". So not problematic to me.

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Truly Enlightened said:

Other than providing wealth and power to those who choose to exploit the ignorance, desperation and hopes of others, is there at least one objective, verifiable example of anything that is directly related to the power of prayer? Is there any evidence that the power of prayer can heal the chronically sick, or the mentally and physically handicapped? Can the power of prayer remove poverty or stop crime? Is the power of prayer something greater than luck, chance, or coincidence? Experiments and tests thus far, have all failed to verify/demonstrate the power of prayer, regardless of what method is used, what the religious ideology is, or how sincere the belief is. This means that no matter how much you may pray for something to become true, the results will be no better than using a rabbit's foot. Although in many cases, simply knowing that many people were praying for you was more detrimental to your health, than not knowing.

Making excuses for the failures of prayer is self-serving at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst. If your prayers are fulfilled then it's your fault, but if your prayers are not fulfilled, then it's still your fault. This is the win-win position of the power of prayer. Therefore, any excuse will be valid.

So, without any evidence to demonstrate the power of prayer, it becomes just another "carrot on a stick", to instill a perception of another layer of religious depth and complexity, for those convinced that they need divine intervention in their lives.

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There are many (myself included) that have experienced otherwise - you are correct on every account from a scientific, collective, repeatable and verifiable front. The issue is, that in a sense, applying that yardstick is comparing two different issues - for me religion forces me to look inwards and it is between me and my lord. Perhaps the closest analogy I can provide is a thought experiment - you may call it random chance at best or a delusion at worst - but there are numerous examples of those who have experienced cures through prayer - alas not repeatable - because the substrate is not is one way to look at it.

ManSinha said:

There are many (myself included) that have experienced otherwise - you are correct on every account from a scientific, collective, repeatable and verifiable front. The issue is, that in a sense, applying that yardstick is comparing two different issues - for me religion forces me to look inwards and it is between me and my lord. Perhaps the closest analogy I can provide is a thought experiment - you may call it random chance at best or a delusion at worst - but there are numerous examples of those who have experienced cures through prayer - alas not repeatable - because the substrate is not is one way to look at it.

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I'm afraid I was speaking about one specific tenet or main principle of your belief, namely, the power of prayer. If there is not one objective verifiable evidence that you can cite, then the power of prayer must only exist in the mind and not in reality. Without objective evidence all arguments will eventually fail. Whatever aspects of your religion forces you to internalize your logic from a subjective perspective, is truly between you and whomever you want.

Our behavior is determined by our inherited genetic makeup. That is, we are genetically more or less "visceral", "behavioral", or "reflective" in design. These designs are all interconnected in the mind as our emotions. And they certainly affect how we experience reality. We can't control how we are genetically hardwired. Fortunately, science does not require any consensus of our subjective perspectives. And the only yardstick it uses, is verifiable objective evidence. Without its objectiveness, we might still believe that the earth is flat, the Universe is 10,000 years old, or that something can come from nothing except when God is involved.

Skwim said:

However, the idea that one may derive god's help by asking for it is a bit problematic.

To me it implies that god is ready to help people, but only if they actually ask for it. As an omniscient being god is fully aware of your needs, but isn't about to lift a finger to help out unless you get down on your hands and knees, clasp your hands, bow your head, and utter those words that will rouse him into action.

As a non-Christian, this seems quite petty if not all out brutish and cruel: "I don't really care if you suffer or not, but as long as you asked me, sure I'll give you a break, but just keep in mind, it's only because you asked." Of course this isn't at all fool proof. Many times god will ignore prayers of help, and go on with other tasks at hand, either because you're not worthy of his assistance or he's simply not in the mood. I don't say this sarcastically, but only because a whole lot of people offer up a whole lot of prayers that go unanswered.

So what's the deal with the loving, omnibenevolent god of Abraham that he needs to be asked before lending a helping hand, which may or may not get his attention?
,

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God is sometimes read as collective humanity. So when we help each other we are king of like God's helpers helping other people get their prayers answered.

It may be prayers are only existing on psychological level. But unless your mind is properly aligned you will not be in a position to receive and appreciate God's blessings coming your way.

Skwim said:

To me it implies that god is ready to help people, but only if they actually ask for it. As an omniscient being god is fully aware of your needs, but isn't about to lift a finger to help out unless you get down on your hands and knees, clasp your hands, bow your head, and utter those words that will rouse him into action.

As a non-Christian, this seems quite petty if not all out brutish and cruel … Many times god will ignore prayers of help, and go on with other tasks at hand, either because you're not worthy of his assistance or he's simply not in the mood. I don't say this sarcastically, but only because a whole lot of people offer up a whole lot of prayers that go unanswered.,

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Why is it that "as a non-Christian" most of your posts seem to assume that "god" means the Christian god? I pray regularly, but not to any "omniscient being". Nor for that matter, do I get down on my knees. As for "hands and knees", I've never seen Christians on all fours!

Do you go running round the neighbourhood, knocking on doors and asking if people need any help? Why should the gods?

If my prayers are unanswered, it may be that I've asked for something that I'm better off without or that it's simply not convenient to grant them because of a lot of complex knock-on results — the "butterfly effect".

I don't say this sarcastically

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Tell that to the marines!