Is The "Allah" of the Qur'an the true universal God?

Booko · Oct 5, 2006

shema said:
ISAIAH PROPHESIED ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY, AND (some) CHRISTIANS ACCEPTING ISLAM

no derogotory remarks were made. The interpretation of this tread could be directly compared to the Ideas of of the author of the topic of this thread. Nobody dismissed the opinions as totally trash. I just wanted to compare the remarks.

Gee, could it be because I didn't read that thread? Hm...

Booko · Oct 5, 2006

shema said:
ok whether dr. moorey cut and pasted or not, could there be any phathom of truth in his essay? because there is a lot of connections that islam has with the moon. Did'nt Mohommed prophesey that the moon would split, isn't Ramadan based around the first quarter of the moon? doesn't he swear by the moon twice? why is the crecent moon affiliated with islam? out of all 360 Gods, why does he put emphasis on the moon god's daughters? The sight did not shift, nor did it cross the limits.

The Bible makes some prophets about the sun and moon too.

That doesn't prove that Jews and Christians are pagans either.

[SIZE=+1]

Indeed he saw the supreme signs of his Lord.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]So did you observe the idols Lat and Uzza?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]And subsequently the third, the Manat?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]What! For you the son, and for Him the daughter?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Then that is surely a very unjust distribution![/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] They are nothing but some names that you have coined, you and your forefathers - Allah has not sent any proof for them.[/SIZE]

Well I think that nobody would have proof of them unless he wouldnt have brought them up. out of all of those gods/goddesses.The God of Abraham does not put much enphasis on the moon as so much the world. actually I think he only said that he made it and that was all.

You seem to have completely missed the point of those ayats.

I suggest you do a little looking into the example of the life of Muhammad to see if he was really a closet pagan.

But do try to use some vaguely scholarly sources this time.

Faint · Oct 5, 2006

shema said:
Comments anyone?

Dr. Morey's premise that there is a "true universal god" at all is a logical fallacy. The case he builds is therefore meaningless.

Booko · Oct 5, 2006

Faint said:
Dr. Morey's premise that there is a "true universal god" at all is a logical fallacy. The case he builds is therefore meaningless.

Uh, Faint, a premise can be right or wrong, but it has to be an argument to be fallacious.

That aside, I was musing today on the propensity of writers of religion-bashing tracts to use the rhetorical technique of appeal to authority.

Do you suppose people would be as inclined to think there's something to his "arguments" if the authorship was assigned to "Jo Blow" instead of "Dr." so and so?

My teenage son asked what his degree was in, and suggested he might be a doctor of veternary medicine. One never knows.

TashaN · Oct 6, 2006

shema said:
Because of what he has done for me in my lifetime. If I would have never came to be in fellowship with him, I probably would be dead by now.

What is your response to Halcyon's reply?

roli · Oct 7, 2006

shema said:
Is The "Allah" of the Qur'an the true universal God?

Well he is one of many,but it won't matter which one claims to be the one universal god,as their are many who make the claim,it will matter which one is revealed on that day when we stand before Him.
Many violate the 2nd commandment

Ishmael's God was the same God as Abraham's, which was also the God of Israel ,but it would appear today that the nature and characteristics of the god of the Qur'an has vastly changed from who the Israelite God was and therefore it is questionable as to who the god of the Qur'an actually is.
It would seem that he is quite different than the God of creation who I believe to be the one true universal God,Elohim,Jehovah,El-shaddi,Adoni
Ex 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
Isa 44:8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared [it]? ye [are] even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any].
Eph 4:4-6There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;One Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

lets_debate · Oct 10, 2006

shema said:
Is The "Allah" of the Qur'an the true universal God?

Dr. Robert Morey
Specific Questions
Does the Qur'an define the word "Allah"? No.
Was the name "Allah" revealed for the first time in the Qur'an? No
Does the Qur'an assume that its readers have already heard of "Allah"? Yes
Should we look into pre-Islamic Arabian history to see who "Allah" was before
Muhammad? Yes.
According to Mulism tradition, was Muhammad born into a Christian family and
tribe? No
Was he born into a Jewish family or tribe? No
What religion was his family and tribe? Pagans
What was the name of his pagan father? Abdullah (Servant of Allah)
Did Muhammad participate in the pagan ceremonies of Mecca? Yes
Did the Arabs in pre-Islamic times worship 360 gods? Yes
Did the pagans Arabs worship the sun, moon and the stars? Yes

Yusuf Ali: pgs. 1619-1623 "The Forms of Pagan Worship."
It will be noticed that the sun and the moon and the five planets got
identified with a living deity, god or goddess, with the qualities of its
own.
Moon worship was equally popular in various forms...It may be noted that the
moon was a male divinity in ancient India; it was also a male divinity in
ancient Semitic religion, and the Arabic word for the moon (qamar) is of the
masculine gender. On the other hand, the Arabic word for the sun (shama) is
of the feminine gender. The pagan Arabs evidently looked upon the sun as a
goddess and the moon as a god.
If Wadd and Suwa represented Man and Woman, they might well represent the
astral worship of the moon and the sun...
The Pagan deities best known in the Ka'ba and round about Mecca were Lat,
Uzza and Manat...They were all female goddesses.
In his explanation of why the Qur'an swears by the moon in Surah 74:32,
"Nay, verily by the Moon," Yusuf Alli comments, "The moon was worshipped as a
deity in times of darkness"(fn. 5798, pg. 1644).
Did the Arabs built temples to the Moon-god? Yes
Did different Arab tribes give the Moon-god different names/titles? Yes
What were some of the names/titles? Sin, Hubul, Ilumquh, Al-ilah.
Was the title "al-ilah" (the god) used of the Moon-god? Yes
Was the word "Allah" derived from "al-ilah?" Yes
Was the pagan "Allah" a high god in a pantheon of deities? Yes.
Was he worshipped at the Kabah? Yes.
Was Allah only one of many Meccan gods? Yes
Did they place a statue of Hubul on top of the Kabah? Yes.
At that time was Hubul considered the Moon-god? Yes.
Was the Kabah thus the "house of the Moon-god"? Yes.
Did the name "Allah" eventually replace that of Hubul as the name of the
Moon god? Yes.
Did they call the Kabah the "house of Allah"?
Did the pagans develop religious rites in connection with the worship of
their gods? Yes.
Did the pagans practice the Pilgrimage, the Fast of Ramadan, running around
the Kabah seven times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal
sacrifices, running up and down two hills, throwing stones at the devil,
snorting water in and out the nose, praying several times a day toward Mecca,
giving alms, Friday prayers, etc.? Yes.
Did Muhammad command his followers to participate in these pagan ceremonies
while the pagans were still in control of Mecca? Yes (See Yusuf Ali, fn. 214,
pg. 78).
Did Islam go on to adopt these pagan religious rites? Yes.
...the whole of the [pagan] pilgrimage was
spiritualized in Islam..." (Yusuf Ali: fn. 223 pg. 80).
Were al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat called "the daughters of Allah"? Yes.
Yusuf Ali explains in fn. 5096, pg. 1445, that Lat,
Uzza and Manat were known as "the daughters of
God [Allah]"
Did the Qur'an at one point tell Muslims to worship al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat?
Yes. In Surah 53:19-20.
Have those verses been "abrogated" out of the present Qur'an? Yes.
What were they called? "The Satanic Verses." Yes.
Was the crescent moon an ancient pagan symbol of the Moon-god throughout the
ancient world? Yes.
Was it the religious symbol of the Moon-god in Arabia? Yes
Were stars also used as pagan symbols of the daughers of Allah? Yes
Did the Jews or the Christians of Arabia use the crescent moon with several
stars next to it as symbols of their faith? No
Did Islam adopt the pagan crescent moon and stars as it religious symbol? Yes.
As Islam developed over the centuries, did it adopt pagan names, pagan
ceremonies, pagan temples and pagan symbols? Yes
Is it possible that most Muslims do not know the pagan sources of the
symbols and rites of their own religion? Yes.
Are they shocked to find out the true sources of their ceremonies and stories?
Yes
Can Islam be the religion of Abraham if it is derived from paganism? No
What then is Islam? A modern version of one of the ancient fertility cults.
Is the "Allah" of the Qur'an, the Christian God of Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit? No
Do the Jews say that the Muslim "Allah" is their God too? No
Then whose god is Allah? Paganism
Documentation
The following citations reveal that there is a general consensus
among Islamic scholars that Allah was a pagan deity before Islam developed.
He was only one god among a pantheon of 360 gods worshipped by the Arabs.
Even if he was at times viewed as a "high god," this does not mean he was
the one true God.

The word Allah was derived from al-ilah which had become a generic title for
whatever god was considered the highest god. Each Arab tribe used Allah to
refer to its own particular high god. This is why Hubal, the Moon god, was
the central focus of prayer at the Kabah and people prayed to Hubal using
the name Allah
"Historians like Vaqqidi have said Allah was actually the chief of the 360 gods
being worshipped in Arabia at the time Mohammed rose to prominence. Ibn Al-Kalbi
gave 27 names of pre-Islamic deities...Interestingly, not many Muslims want to
accept that Allah was already being worshipped at the Ka'ba in Mecca by Arab
pagans before Mohammed came. Some Muslims become angry when they are confronted
with this fact. But history is not on their side. Pre-Islamic literature has
proved this."
G. J. O. Moshay, Who Is This Allah?, (Dorchester House, Bucks, UK, 1994),
pg. 138.

Comments anyone?

Allah is a proper noun, it is a name for God.
Prophet Ibrahim, Ismael, Ishaq, Iesa and everyone called God by different proper nouns including 'Allah', therefore the name 'Allah' was not a new revelation in the Qur'an. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did not take part in any pagan festival, Allah protected him from taking part as we know from evidence. If the Moon was worshipped at the Ka'ba then why would have the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) destroyed all the idols during the conquest of Makkah. From what I have inferred from your post is that you do not know anything about Islam and you have just picked up a blasphemous article from some magazine and pasted it here. Have you ever heard of a muslim worshipping the Moon, prostrating the Moon? NO!
The symbol of the moon is not religious to us, its just that since our calendar depends on the waning and waxing of the moon, the muslims have put up the symbol. IT IS NOTHING RELIGIOUS. The prophet Muhammad (PBUH) never took the symbol of the moon to be religious, the moon is only the deciding factor for the change of months. YOU ARE SOOO WRONG!
About the worshipping of al-Lat, Uzza and Manat; YOU HAVE INFERRED THE WHOLE VERSE WRONG! GOD SAYS THAT HOW CAN YOU DECIDE THAT TWO GODS BE MALE AND ONE BE A FEMALE (GODDESS). My friend, I advise you to do some research and don't submit half written Qur'anic translations in here.
The Fast of Ramadan was not only done by the pagans but every prophet that came before them; right from Adam to Ibrahim, Iesa (Jesus), Musa (moses) {May Peace Be Upon Them All}. Every prophet used to fast, only the fast observed by them was slightly different (eg. refraining from talking, eating etc.)

PLEASE DO A FAVOR ON YOURSELF AND EVERYONE HERE AND STOP SUBMITTING WRONG INFORMATION!

Jayhawker Soule · Oct 10, 2006

Booko said:
Uh, Faint, a premise can be right or wrong, but it has to be an argument to be fallacious.

Begging the question is a fallacy of presupposition.

Jayhawker Soule · Oct 10, 2006

lets_debate said:
PLEASE DO A FAVOR ON YOURSELF AND EVERYONE HERE AND STOP SUBMITTING WRONG INFORMATION!

Please do a favor to yourself and everyone here and stop yelling.

lets_debate said:
Prophet Ibrahim, Ismael, Ishaq, Iesa and everyone called God by the proper noun 'Allah', ...

That's just silly ...

lets_debate · Oct 10, 2006

NO, its not silly; it has been mentioned in the Qur'an.
What would have Jesus called GOD? Is there something mentioned in the Bible, No; because christians have edited the Bible by themselves. How can a human write the "WORD OF GOD"??

open_mind · Oct 12, 2006

shema said:
Because of what he has done for me in my lifetime. If I would have never came to be in fellowship with him, I probably would be dead by now.

that means that anyone who suffers in his life should not worship God!!

in Islam its not Allah's pity on me that makes me worship him,its because he deserves it

He is the complete universal God,He is not a HUMAN and He has no SONS or DAUGHTERS

Is The "Allah" of the Qur'an the true universal God?

Booko

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Booko

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Faint

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Booko

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TashaN

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roli

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lets_debate

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Jayhawker Soule

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open_mind

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