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religiosity and/or strength of religious belief is associated with less intelligence

Audie

Veteran Member
Of course they do. He tells them what they want to hear.

Hmm. I get the "admire honesty" which in this
case is really "hold fast the faith".

What I dont get is the inability to detect or even
comprehend intellectual dishonesty.

I will go with you being correct, tho it is
even more simple minded than I generally
give then credit for being.

Unless, that is, one of them would like to
come forth and show an exception, or some
other explanation.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
He has publically admitted that, although he understood the validity of an old earth, he chose to reject it and promote creationist nonsense.

I wonder if our hero of the K Wise support would
be ok with a judge and jury who said that if all
the evidence in the universe showed he was
innocent, they would find him guilty anyway,
as to them he seems guilty.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
I wonder if our hero of the K Wise support would
be ok with a judge and jury who said that if all
the evidence in the universe showed he was
innocent, they would find him guilty anyway,
as to them he seems guilty.

A very apt parallel. I hope yoiu won't mind if I hang on to it.
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
Near-Death Experiences and the Mind-Body Problem

Lets discuss that one i gauss. Its boring as hell, but, itle do. Not my style of format ill tell ya that for sure.

I cant cut and paste from it, thats another pitfall. But on page 2 it mentions what i was talking about concerning veridical NDEs. It talks about the NDE having extra sensory knowledge.

No worries, I'll take a look. It took me a while to get used to reading scientific articles. Some are worse than others. It can take days to get through one page if you don't understand what they're talking about.
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
Near-Death Experiences and the Mind-Body Problem

Lets discuss that one i gauss. Its boring as hell, but, itle do. Not my style of format ill tell ya that for sure.

I cant cut and paste from it, thats another pitfall. But on page 2 it mentions what i was talking about concerning veridical NDEs. It talks about the NDE having extra sensory knowledge.

So, right of the bat I noticed this is a philosophy paper. I noticed this earlier: Journal-of-near-death-studies also publish philosophy papers too, but I'll take a look.
 
Golly gee. I took the time to do as you asked - I looked up david berlinski.

I showed you what I found.



How can you say my comments are "absolutely rediculious(sic), wrong, red herring, strawman and ad hom" when they are based on easily researched and verified information? Were you under the mistaken impression that he had any valid degrees? Didn't you do any research on him before you linked to him? For shame.

"Berlinski received his Ph.D. in philosophy from Princeton University and was later a postdoctoral fellow in mathematics and molecular biology at Columbia University. He has authored works on systems analysis, differential topology, theoretical biology, analytic philosophy, and the philosophy of mathematics, as well as three novels. He has also taught philosophy, mathematics and English at Stanford, Rutgers, the City University of New York and the Université de Paris. In addition, he has held research fellowships at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis in Austria and the Institut des Hautes Études Scientifiques. He lives in Paris."

All your doing is ad hominums. Berlinski admitted himself that he is agnostic.
 
A simple test is to put a magazine on a bookshelf high enough that no one standing could see it. If the patients did have OBE and "float", they would be able to report what they saw. A pro-NDE research Group AWARE set up such a test.

https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/aware-results-finally-published-no-evidence-of-nde/
AWARE Results Finally Published – No Evidence of NDE
Conclusion

The much anticipated AWARE study, designed to be the first large rigorous study of NDEs with objective outcomes that could potentially differentiate between the two major hypotheses, is essentially a bust. The study, for the main outcome measure for which it was designed, did not return as much data as was hoped, but the data it did return was entirely negative.
...
Spinning of this study in the popular press as evidence of life after death is not justified.



jollybear said...
Theres a point we have got to say its not fudged, something real is happening.

The study found...
Theres a point we have got to say oops, there is nothing really happening.


"Methods and Results

The AWARE study has two objectives, (1) to examine the incidence of awareness and the variety of mental experiences during cardiac arrest (CA) resuscitation, and (2) to develop a methodology to test the accuracy of reports of visual and auditory perceptionduring CA. The study began in 2008 and, over the first four years, examined 2,060 patients from 15 hospitals in the UK, the US and Austria.

Cardiac arrest survivors were interviewed in three stages, (1) to determine if there were memories or perceptions during the CA, (2) to determine if the memories or perceptions constituted an NDE (with or without auditory/visual awareness), and (3) to verify the accuracy of any auditory/visual perceptions of the physical environment that were experienced during the NDE.

To assess the accuracy of claims of visual awareness (VA), 50 to 100 shelves were installed in each hospitalnear the ceiling of areas where CA resuscitation was likely to occur. Each shelf had an image that was visible only from above the shelf. The study's hypothesis was that the images on the shelves could potentially test the validity of claims of accurate VA, provided enough cases of NDEs occurred where the patient had visual awareness from a vantage point high enough to see the image.

Of the 2,060 patients in the study, only 140 survived and were well enough to have a Stage 1 interview. Of these 140, 39 were not able to complete the Stage 2 interview, mostly due to fatigue. Of the remaining 101 patients interviewed in Stage 2, only 9 were deemed to have had an NDE (9%) and of these 9 NDErs, only two reported memories of auditory/visual awareness of the physical environment. Of these two, one was not able to follow up with an in-depth Stage 3 interview due to ill health. The other patient had verified perceptions of CA events:

  • During the NDE, the patient felt quite euphoric.
  • The patient heard an automated voice saying "Shock the patient, shock the patient."
  • The patient rose near the ceiling and looked down on his physical body, the nurse and another man, bald and "quite a chunky fella", who wore blue scrubs and a blue hat. The patient could tell the man was bald because of where the hat was.
  • The next day, the patient recognized the bald man who attended him during the resuscitation.
  • The medical record confirmed the use of an AED (Automated External Defibrillator) that would give the automated instructions the patient heard and the role that the identified man played during the resuscitation.
Unfortunately, both cases of CA NDEs with auditory/visual awareness occurred in non-acute areas of the hospital, without shelves, so further analysis of the accuracy of VA was not possible"

AWARE study initial results are published!

In my own words: more research, to a brouder scope of types of sick people need to be tested on.

Second, when a NDEr comes out of there body, lets be real, the last thing on there mind is a magazine on a shelf.
 
He bases his account on Noah's flood and his idiot "flood geology", both of which are fatuous nonsense.

"Fatuous nonsense" does not explain anything to me.

His guff about variable decay rates is nonsense. Ancient decay rates have been checked in various ways and have been found to be consistent with the present.

Your just handwaving his explanation away. Explain to me why hes wrong.

It enrages me to see my scientific specialty perverted as Wise does.

Im not an old earther or young earther. Im just a critical thinker and my critical thinking tells me that i want you to explain to me why kurt perverted your science.

You insult everyone on this forum by citing the Discovery Institute. They are a bunch of notorious liars bilking gullible folks.

Thats BS! As fare as intelligent design goes, im a big advocate of that and i dont care if your insulted by it. Boohoo to you.

Again, I recommend you look over Roger Wiens' account.

No, i want YOU to explain to me WHAT YOU BELIEVE. If you understand what you believe, then you explain it! Got it pale?
 
He has publically admitted that, although he understood the validity of an old earth, he chose to reject it and promote creationist nonsense.

I heard what kurt said. My view of it was he saw the mainstream telling him one thing and the bible another thing. Then he thought he had to give one up. Then realized he did not have too and he could question the assumptions within radiometric dating.
 
No worries, I'll take a look. It took me a while to get used to reading scientific articles. Some are worse than others. It can take days to get through one page if you don't understand what they're talking about.

Yea, i wonder why they gotta talk over the laymens heads?

So, right of the bat I noticed this is a philosophy paper. I noticed this earlier: Journal-of-near-death-studies also publish philosophy papers too, but I'll take a look.

Yes, but you do realize that there is a thing called "the philosophy of science"? Science is not just data, facts, tests, ect, its also putting this stuff all together, anylasis, interpretations and inferences.

Thats the philosophy part.
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
Yea, i wonder why they gotta talk over the laymens heads?



Yes, but you do realize that there is a thing called "the philosophy of science"? Science is not just data, facts, tests, ect, its also putting this stuff all together, anylasis, interpretations and inferences.

Thats the philosophy part.
Ok I read it. I should first point out this is nearly 40 years old. I think philosophy ages much better than science, because science is always changing. However, these types of articles use the most recent science to try get their point across. Since this paper is nearly 40 years old, it didn't age as well as other types of philosophy.

That out of the way, it was a rather pleasant read. I'll explain and illuminate anything you don't understand in it and if I'm wrong I'd ask anyone else to give a second opinion, but I doubt people anyone else would go to this trouble. Ok so, this article is not relevant in any way shape of form in proving NDE proves a soul or somesuch. He talks about subjectivism(scientists) vs objectivism(theists, basically) and how they are mutually opposed. He tries to merge them together so that it's possible to measure the mind/soul. He starts out critical of scientists and basically says they should lighten and stop following their metaphysical subjectivism. Then, however, he becomes extremely critical of the dualist view(the Christian view, basically). He basically says the soul being completely separate from the body is intelligible(the basic Christian view)for the person with NDE, because they remembering them being in a certain place where that would be impossible. So then he proposes a merger between these views - "energy materialism." Though he says that this view doesn't make sense either concerning NDE memories, because if souls are material in nature, they'd need the body in some way or they wouldn't be the same, at all. Energy materialism should be measurable, basically, the soul should be measurable. He suggests lightly that weighing the body before and straight after it dies to see if there is a weight different as a possible experiment, as I recall.

So there. Interesting but irrelevant. I don't really want to read anymore philosophy papers. I'd prefer some scientific studies.
 
Ok I read it. I should first point out this is nearly 40 years old. I think philosophy ages much better than science, because science is always changing. However, these types of articles use the most recent science to try get their point across. Since this paper is nearly 40 years old, it didn't age as well as other types of philosophy.

That out of the way, it was a rather pleasant read. I'll explain and illuminate anything you don't understand in it and if I'm wrong I'd ask anyone else to give a second opinion, but I doubt people anyone else would go to this trouble. Ok so, this article is not relevant in any way shape of form in proving NDE proves a soul or somesuch. He talks about subjectivism(scientists) vs objectivism(theists, basically) and how they are mutually opposed. He tries to merge them together so that it's possible to measure the mind/soul. He starts out critical of scientists and basically says they should lighten and stop following their metaphysical subjectivism. Then, however, he becomes extremely critical of the dualist view(the Christian view, basically). He basically says the soul being completely separate from the body is intelligible(the basic Christian view)for the person with NDE, because they remembering them being in a certain place where that would be impossible. So then he proposes a merger between these views - "energy materialism." Though he says that this view doesn't make sense either concerning NDE memories, because if souls are material in nature, they'd need the body in some way or they wouldn't be the same, at all. Energy materialism should be measurable, basically, the soul should be measurable. He suggests lightly that weighing the body before and straight after it dies to see if there is a weight different as a possible experiment, as I recall.

So there. Interesting but irrelevant. I don't really want to read anymore philosophy papers. I'd prefer some scientific studies.

And you say im arrogant, yet when evidence after evidence is given to you, you then make another handwave of the evidence?

What about the extra sensory knowledge?

It seams that some people have a pseudoskepticism type attitudes. They wont believe unless they themselves experience it.

And yes, atheists have had NDEs and some changed there view and some did not.

What kind of evidence are you looking for? Apparently its not peer reviewed papers either.
 
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charlie sc

Well-Known Member
And you say im arrogant, yet when evidence after evidence is given to you, you then make another handwave of the evidence?

What about the extra sensory knowledge?

It seams that some people have a pseudoskepticism type attitudes. They wont believe unless they themselves experience it.

And yes, atheists have had NDEs and some changed there view and some did not.

What kind of evidence are you looking for? Apparently its not peer reviewed papers either.

This is the second paper I’ve read that you chose. Both of these papers were not in favour of psi or NDE Christian dualist viewers of the soul. Obviously, you didn’t know it was a philosophy paper, but I’m sure you thought it sounded like it was in your favour, again. So when I mentioned this to you, as expected, you gave a snarky response. I’d assume because you’re embarrassed for not understanding it and even choosing a philosophy paper instead of a scienific study.

If you don’t believe my explanation(that I dumbed down) of the paper YOU CHOSE then read it yourself or get someone else to read it. I was willing to go step by step with you so you could understand it but I definitely wouldn’t do that now. Besides, I don’t think you’d consider listening to anything I’d have to say anyway and you’re so resistant to anything but your view. I think I’ve gone to some length trying to accommodate you, but with your attitude it’s become impossible.

I’m out.
 
This is the second paper I’ve read that you chose. Both of these papers were not in favour of psi or NDE Christian dualist viewers of the soul.

No, the first paper AGAIN was given to you because of jessicas contribution. Which her conclusions are still hers.

And as for "christian dualist viewers of the soul" i dont know what ypur talking about. The philosophy paper does support the NDE. Did you read the veridical NDE parts where they had extra sensory perceptions and knowledge?

Obviously, you didn’t know it was a philosophy paper, but I’m sure you thought it sounded like it was in your favour, again.

It is in my favor. It talks about the ESP NDEs and even gave an example.

So when I mentioned this to you, as expected, you gave a snarky response. I’d assume because you’re embarrassed for not understanding it and even choosing a philosophy paper instead of a scienific study.

Mayby the snarky response is because of your scedoskeptisims.

If you don’t believe my explanation(that I dumbed down) of the paper YOU CHOSE then read it yourself or get someone else to read it. I was willing to go step by step with you so you could understand it but I definitely wouldn’t do that now. Besides, I don’t think you’d consider listening to anything I’d have to say anyway and you’re so resistant to anything but your view. I think I’ve gone to some length trying to accommodate you, but with your attitude it’s become impossible.

I’m out.

If you don’t believe my explanation(that I dumbed down) of the paper YOU read then read it yourself or get someone else to read it. I was willing to go step by step with you so you could understand it but I definitely wouldn’t do that now. Besides, I don’t think you’d consider listening to anything I’d have to say anyway and you’re so resistant to anything but your view. I think I’ve gone to some length trying to accommodate you, but with your attitude it’s become impossible.

Basically, look in the mirror.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
"Fatuous nonsense" does not explain anything to me.



Your just handwaving his explanation away. Explain to me why hes wrong.



Im not an old earther or young earther. Im just a critical thinker and my critical thinking tells me that i want you to explain to me why kurt perverted your science.



Thats BS! As fare as intelligent design goes, im a big advocate of that and i dont care if your insulted by it. Boohoo to you.



No, i want YOU to explain to me WHAT YOU BELIEVE. If you understand what you believe, then you explain it! Got it pale?

He is wrong because he lies about things that are settled science

Nuclear decay is thoroughly understood. One can even compute half-lives with good accuracy it is intimately tied to fundamental properties of the universe.

If decay rates changed enough to significantly affect dating, the energy released would likely sterilize the earth.

His idiot handwaving about changing decay rates is just bafflegab meant to con rubes.

Nuclear dating methods have been checked against other annual phenomena such as ice layers in glaciers and found to be in good agreement.

The observed rock strata could not possibly be deposited by one recent flood. All that is known of geochemistry shows that the creationist account is balderdash.

Ancient myths do not trump the careful work of thousands of scientists over many years.

Creationist organizations are fronts for efforts to establish theocracy. Check out the "Wedge Document" if you doubt that.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Yea, i wonder why they gotta talk over the laymens heads?



Yes, but you do realize that there is a thing called "the philosophy of science"? Science is not just data, facts, tests, ect, its also putting this stuff all together, anylasis, interpretations and inferences.

Thats the philosophy part.
Because they're not talking to laymen in those articles - they're talking to other scientists.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
And you say im arrogant, yet when evidence after evidence is given to you, you then make another handwave of the evidence?

What about the extra sensory knowledge?

It seams that some people have a pseudoskepticism type attitudes. They wont believe unless they themselves experience it.

And yes, atheists have had NDEs and some changed there view and some did not.

What kind of evidence are you looking for? Apparently its not peer reviewed papers either.
Hand wave? That poster took the time to read the entire article you presented, and then further took the time to lay out the issues they had with it. And you consider that hand waving ... why? I would consider it the opposite.

How are you tying NDEs in with the existence of god(s)? Where's the connection?
 
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