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Matthew 27:46 anyone figure this out yet?

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Matthew 27:46

Deity why have you forsaken, g- d why have you forsaken...

Context seems to be, yoheshua saying the deity has forsaken him, anyone figure this out?

Sort of contradicts the other verses.

You know when you die. it stands witness that Jesus died a human death.

The strong feeling of being forsaken is part of the process of our physical death.

This is my theory for everyone to verify at his death.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Does it not stand to reason that if God did not leave his son at that moment, that he could not have died? He had been with him every moment up until that time....he had to let him go so that the ransom could be paid and all humanity could be released from sin. Three days later he raised him up.

Theological question. When Jesus died, did the trinity turn into a twoinity? That would indicate that God lost a piece (33% about) of Himself, for the whole passover weekend.

And by the way, the ransom? That was a cheap bargain, wasnt’it? All that sin paid by a bit of pain and just a bit of provisional death. I mean, who would not die to be resurrected as master of the Universe a few hours later?

Ciao

- viole
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Matthew 27:46

Deity why have you forsaken, g- d why have you forsaken...

Context seems to be, yoheshua saying the deity has forsaken him, anyone figure this out?

Sort of contradicts the other verses.

This is why having a church background helps. Also helps in Jeopardy.

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

This is one of the prayers in the Hebrew Bible. And if we are reading the surrounding text, it is largely what is happening to Jesus.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Theological question. When Jesus died, did the trinity turn into a twoinity?

There is no trinity. Jesus and his Father are, and always have been two separate entities. (John 17:3) The Roman Catholic church invented the trinity. You will not find it in the Bible.

That would indicate that God lost a piece (33% about) of Himself, for the whole passover weekend.

Yes, stupid, isn't it? Mere humans can kill God! And a dead man can resurrect himself?

And by the way, the ransom? That was a cheap bargain, wasnt’it? All that sin paid by a bit of pain and just a bit of provisional death. I mean, who would not die to be resurrected as master of the Universe a few hours later?

A ransom is what is demanded for the release of a captive. The whole human race was hijacked and thrown into a form of slavery from which it could never provide the required price for its own release....slavery to sin and death.

God's law was "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life".....which denotes equivalency. The life that Adam lost for his children, was perfect sinless life. He lost his life due to his own abuse of free will (the stated penalty) and along with it, he lost his perfection when sin became part of the human condition...like a fatal inherited genetic disease passed from parent to child....all of his children inherited this condition.

Adam's death did not pay for the sin that his children inherited from him. So God sent his own son to earth as a human to pay the ransom with his perfect human life. All he needed to do was offer his life....the suffering was not necessary, but he endured it even though none of it was deserved.

A perfect life was offered for a perfect life, balancing the scales of justice. When God makes laws for man, he abides by them himself. I respect that.

You don't have to accept the payment, but it can be applied to all who appreciate what Jesus did. If not, then he did not die for those who treat his sacrifice as something to mock.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Matthew 27:46

Deity why have you forsaken, g- d why have you forsaken...

Context seems to be, yoheshua saying the deity has forsaken him, anyone figure this out?

Sort of contradicts the other verses.
I have always taken it to be a cry, in extremis at the point of death, by someone who was a human being, as well as being the Son of God. Very touching to see God the Son experiencing the pain of human death - and perhaps indicative of the moment of sacrifice. (But I also like Samantha's explanation.)
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
I have always taken it to be a cry, in extremis at the point of death, by someone who was a human being, as well as being the Son of God. Very touching to see God the Son experiencing the pain of human death - and perhaps indicative of the moment of sacrifice. (But I also like Samantha's explanation.)

An eternal alien, who pre-existed the creation of the entire cosmos, who some 2,000 years ago supposedly came down to earth and entered the womb of some supposed ever virgin, where he created for himself a human like body which was supposedly not of the seed of Adam and therefore free of the penalty of sin, in which human-like body, he could walk the earth disguised as a human being.

I believe that a few hours of Physical pain to this eternal being who supposedly knew he could not die, and would soon return to his eternal heavenly existence, would be an experience that he would cherish.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
If Yoheshua knew this was going to occur, then why is he presumably saying, or even equating, the idea of 'forsaken', to this, at all.
 
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Neuropteron

Active Member
Matthew 27:46

Deity why have you forsaken, g- d why have you forsaken...

Context seems to be, yoheshua saying the deity has forsaken him, anyone figure this out?

Sort of contradicts the other verses.


Jesus asked this question, not because he did not know why his father had forsaken him, but in order that prophecy might be fulfilled.
The prophecy here fulfilled, was one found in Psalm 22, which was written by David, who was a prophetic type of Jesus Christ in many respects.

When any disciples of Jesus who were standing near, such as John and Mary, heard him cry out those words of Psalm 22, they may at first not have understood.
However following the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost, then they must have remembered and appreciated the fact that this prophetic outcry identified Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah of God.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Matthew 27:46

Deity why have you forsaken, g- d why have you forsaken...

Context seems to be, yoheshua saying the deity has forsaken him, anyone figure this out?

Sort of contradicts the other verses.

Yeah, Trinitarians will always find textual contradictions, which will require special pleadings and heavy spinning.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Yeah, Trinitarians will always find textual contradictions, which will require special pleadings and heavy spinning.
That doesn't make any sense.

Also, trinitarians have explanations, read the discussion.

You aren't contributing anything, except odd 'inference' that no one is going to even understand, this makes it easy to discount the obfuscation.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
That doesn't make any sense.

Also, trinitarians have explanations, read the discussion.

You aren't contributing anything, except odd 'inference' that no one is going to even understand, this makes it easy to discount the obfuscation.
If you’re a Trinitarian, you have to spin the OP text...that’s all I’m sayin’.

You can’t take it as is, that Jesus was forsaken, at that moment, by God. And, that Jesus had a God. He wasn’t only his Father; He was ‘his God.’ It’s so clear.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I believe we can ask:
Is this literal
Is this not literal
Forsaken.

I don't believe it can be both. The prophecy might infer a sort of non literalism, thusly , Jesus just says this.

A literal statement to this nature, would seem to signify, something that Jesus wasn't actually aware of, this again, not really answering certain questions.

In the book of Mark, they thought Jesus was talking about a person named Eli.
 
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siti

Well-Known Member
Nope - there's no need to figure anything out - it just shows that somebody had the scroll containing what we now call Psalm 22 to hand when they were composing the story of the crucifixion. There are a few quotes and allusions to that Psalm in the crucifixion accounts.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Nope - there's no need to figure anything out - it just shows that somebody had the scroll containing what we now call Psalm 22 to hand when they were composing the story of the crucifixion. There are a few quotes and allusions to that Psalm in the crucifixion accounts.

22: 18; They gamble for my clothes and divide them among themselves
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
If you’re a Trinitarian, you have to spin the OP text...that’s all I’m sayin’.

You can’t take it as is, that Jesus was forsaken, at that moment, by God. And, that Jesus had a God. He wasn’t only his Father; He was ‘his God.’ It’s so clear.
Yet that must make 'G- d our father [and The Lord Jesus Christ', unclear. Because you are saying that although 'G- d' can only mean the father, in this instance, it doesn't. You're contradicting your own interpretation, and that's because your interpretation doesn't work.

In other words, you aren't following your own arguments.


Actually your argument is that 'G- d' can mean anything, except where it can't subjectively. And here, it must mean 'god', yet not a name for the father.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
If you’re a Trinitarian, you have to spin the OP text...that’s all I’m sayin’.

You can’t take it as is, that Jesus was forsaken, at that moment, by God. And, that Jesus had a God. He wasn’t only his Father; He was ‘his God.’ It’s so clear.
The question or possible contradictions have nothing to do with trinitarianism, there's more to explain for non trinitarians, really, because there is more of a direct ethical question, and why
John 10
For example, so, you're just wrong.
 
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siti

Well-Known Member
22: 18; They gamble for my clothes and divide them among themselves
Yes that's one...I found at least 4 including that one and the OP one...

Psalms 22:1 paralleled in Matthew 27:46
Psalms 22:7 .... Matthew 27:39; Mark 15:29
Psalms 22:8 .... Matthew 27:43
Psalms 22:18 which is in all 4 gospel accounts: Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23-24

So did the Psalmist somehow know the details of Jesus death a few centuries in advance, or did the Gospel writer(s) incorporate Hebrew tradition in order to strengthen the Messianic credentials of the hero of their story?
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The question or possible contradictions have nothing to do with trinitarianism, there's more to explain for non trinitarians, really, because there is more of a direct ethical question, and why
John 10
For example, so, you're just wrong.
More convolution. How is he and his Father, “one”?
(Is that your point? IDK.)
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
An eternal alien, who pre-existed the creation of the entire cosmos, who some 2,000 years ago supposedly came down to earth and entered the womb of some supposed ever virgin, where he created for himself a human like body which was supposedly not of the seed of Adam and therefore free of the penalty of sin, in which human-like body, he could walk the earth disguised as a human being.

I believe that a few hours of Physical pain to this eternal being who supposedly knew he could not die, and would soon return to his eternal heavenly existence, would be an experience that he would cherish.
I think one message of the gospels is that Christ was truly Man and subject to all the feelings, psychological drives and suffering that Man is heir to. The temptation in the wilderness also shows this at work, for instance.
 
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