Buddha and Christ identical Beings

CG Didymus · Mar 17, 2019

InvestigateTruth said:
Bahaullah said, They are all One Spirit. Yes, different individuals, but same Spirit.

"For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences." Bahaullah

There is the physical body of Buddha, Jesus, Moses and the other people Baha'is believe to be manifestations, then... is there a soul/spirit part of them that is unique to them... then, when does The Spirit enter into them?

CG Didymus · Mar 17, 2019

InvestigateTruth said:
Well, I am looking for a logical argument here, not a sarcasm.
If you will, just look at the statements of Buddha in OP, and compare with statements of Jesus about Himself, and show they are not the same claims!

No body has done this in this thread. Let me, make it more clear by starting the first one:

1.
Jesus said, I am the first, before Abraham I was. Here Jesus is saying He is the first person and had existed before everyone else. Meaning He is the eldest person in the world.
Buddha said, Eldest am I in the world,

Now, manytimes, we choose not to see if we do not like to see. I feel this is how such clear identical statements are not seen to be the same. Instead, they try to get away, by making excuses, such as accusing of cherry picking! Because they cannot logically disprove it.

Baha'is have claimed some statements in the Scriptures of other religions as true and some not so true. Why do you think these statements about what the child that was to get enlightened, and become the Buddha, are true? From your link:

It is said that immediately after his birth, he stood up, took seven steps north, and uttered:[2]

"I am chief of the world,
Eldest am I in the world,
Foremost am I in the world.
This is the last birth.
There is now no more coming to be."

Furthermore, every place the baby Buddha placed his foot, a lotus flower bloomed

InvestigateTruth · Mar 17, 2019

CG Didymus said:
Baha'is have claimed some statements in the Scriptures of other religions as true and some not so true. Why do you think these statements about what the child that was to get enlightened, and become the Buddha, are true? From your link:

It is said that immediately after his birth, he stood up, took seven steps north, and uttered:[2]

"I am chief of the world,
Eldest am I in the world,
Foremost am I in the world.
This is the last birth.
There is now no more coming to be."

Furthermore, every place the baby Buddha placed his foot, a lotus flower bloomed

For me, believing in Bahaullah, Muhammad, jesus, buddha...comes by putting pieces of puzzle together to see the complete picture. The fact that I see in this case, Buddha, christ, or Krishna made identical statement about their claim, is just one piece of puzzle of the many pieces. Consider, how, the statements of Bahaullah, about the firstness and the lastness of these Founders of great religions is compatible with the recorded traditions. As regards to other ideas, such as reincarnation, Bahais do not say, Krishna or buddha did not speak of rebirth, or return. Bahais say, Krishna or buddha did speak of the concept of return, and rebirth but not in a literal sense. We believe, essentially, literalism has been one of the main reasons that some of the teachings has been misunderstood.

shunyadragon · Mar 17, 2019

CG Didymus said:
There is the physical body of Buddha, Jesus, Moses and the other people Baha'is believe to be manifestations, then... is there a soul/spirit part of them that is unique to them... then, when does The Spirit enter into them?

They are physically human bearers of the manifestation of the message and attributes of God. There is no necessary time nor place that they became enlightened or anointed with the message. With Jesus it was symbolic of the descent of the dove.

TransmutingSoul · Mar 17, 2019

CG Didymus said:
There is the physical body of Buddha, Jesus, Moses and the other people Baha'is believe to be manifestations, then... is there a soul/spirit part of them that is unique to them... then, when does The Spirit enter into them?

To me that is the crucial question about how to understand the metephor of the Virgin Birth. They are born of the Holy Spirit even though they share our humaity.

Regards Tony

loverofhumanity · Mar 17, 2019

sayak83 said:
I specifically asked if you are interested in reading through the writings of earliest Buddhist scriptures and Synoptic gospels together from professionally translated works to see how much similarity/dissimilarity are actually present in the thoughts presented there.
To this you simply quoted something about how learning is irrelevant in truth finding or some such.
If this does not demonstrate your inherent disinclination about putting your pre-existing beliefs and conclusions through informed testing in order to discover whether they are actually true or not, then what does?

This being the case, why are you writing in the Religious Debates section, where the point of every thread is informed debates about competing theological and philosophical worldviews?

And don't complain that others are unfairly criticizing your beliefs when you yourself refuse to engage in the proper effort to justify them to us.

I consider knowledge important but I frown upon human interpretations as human reasoning is flawed I always welcome anyone who wishes to question my beliefs.

I already believe in Buddha and Jesus.

I already know much of the similarities and dissimilarities between the Gospels and Buddhism. And I believe in both Buddha and Jesus.

But I’m happy to offer what Baha’u’llah says on any Buddhistic or Gospel teaching or concept. I think that’s fair as we can both share and perhaps learn something by exchanging views.

One important point I wish to raise and that is the topic of authenticity. Buddha did say His Dhamma would decay over time to be replaced with a counterfeit Dhamma. Are the works you wish to present signed and authenticated by the Buddha Himself?

The Baha’i Writings are all documented signed and sealed with the originals kept in Israel. Teams of professional translators have translated them into English. Baha’u’llah wrote with His own Pen and signed and sealed all His Tablets.

So agreed? But in a friendly spirit. I’m not wanting to get into a dispute but rather search out truth together.

CG Didymus · Mar 17, 2019

InvestigateTruth said:
Have a look at this thread as well:

Can Non-Abrahamics and Abrahamics be from same God?

I am sure if the original teachings of Buddha can be interpreted correctly, in principle, they will be exactly the teachings of Jesus, if Jesus teachings are interpreted correctly. The issue is, different people interpreted differently the teachings of Jesus and Buddha. Now, even Buddhist cannot agree on many of the teachings of Buddha. Does that mean Buddha spoke contradictory to Himself, or is it because Buddhist interpreted His words differently, and added their own invented rites? It must be the latter. Then how do you know, the differences between Jesus and Buddhas teachings, are not due to different in interpretations? Moreover, They appeared in different times, and among different people. They must have spoken according to the cultural understanding and requirements. I mean God is not a robot to say exactly somethings.

So Buddha said stuff and Jesus said stuff. Did either one write down anything? If not, there is no "original" teachings. So all we have is people that say that this is what they said. Then, we have people interpret those things. You already say the interpretations are wrong, and Baha'is also say that the writings are not "wholly" authentic. So what do we have? Definitely, nothing that can be called the "original" teachings. So how do you know they are the same? Only because Baha'is say so.

loverofhumanity · Mar 17, 2019

CG Didymus said:
So Buddha said stuff and Jesus said stuff. Did either one write down anything? If not, there is no "original" teachings. So all we have is people that say that this is what they said. Then, we have people interpret those things. You already say the interpretations are wrong, and Baha'is also say that the writings are not "wholly" authentic. So what do we have? Definitely, nothing that can be called the "original" teachings. So how do you know they are the same? Only because Baha'is say so.

Authenticity is definitely a big problem. That is why we constantly need Messengers to come to re establish the truth.

TransmutingSoul · Mar 17, 2019

CG Didymus said:
So Buddha said stuff and Jesus said stuff. Did either one write down anything? If not, there is no "original" teachings. So all we have is people that say that this is what they said. Then, we have people interpret those things. You already say the interpretations are wrong, and Baha'is also say that the writings are not "wholly" authentic. So what do we have? Definitely, nothing that can be called the "original" teachings. So how do you know they are the same? Only because Baha'is say so.

Baha'u'llah said they had the same source. Both the Bible and Quran tell us there is One God.

This it is not a new concept, except Bahau'llah included all the Messengers that are not seen as the Abrahamic line.

Regards Tony

crossfire · Mar 17, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
One important point I wish to raise and that is the topic of authenticity. Buddha did say His Dhamma would decay over time to be replaced with a counterfeit Dhamma.

Yes, that is how propaganda works. The propaganda against Buddha's teachings started during his own lifetime, which Buddha refuted when he heard it. Many examples of this are documented in the suttas. I can see many later examples of such propaganda that many take for Buddhadharma today. This is probably why Buddha warned about the decay of the oral tradition. I can see much of the propaganda for what it is, but there may be a time when people won't be able to recognize the propaganda. This is why Buddha said to test it out for yourself.

TransmutingSoul · Mar 17, 2019

crossfire said:
This is why Buddha said to test it out for yourself.

Christ likewise;

"...Prove all things; hold fast that which is good..." 1 Thessalonians 5:21

Regards Tony

loverofhumanity · Mar 17, 2019

crossfire said:
Yes, that is how propaganda works. The propaganda against Buddha's teachings started during his own lifetime, which Buddha refuted when he heard it. Many examples of this are documented in the suttas. I can see many later examples of such propaganda that many take for Buddhadharma today. This is probably why Buddha warned about the decay of the oral tradition. I can see much of the propaganda for what it is, but there may be a time when people won't be able to recognize the propaganda. This is why Buddha said to test it out for yourself.

I believe in Buddha and I accept much of what I believe He taught. Although we have mainly oral tradition much of it I accept as truth such beautiful texts as the Dhammapada which is so profound.

sayak83 · Mar 17, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
I consider knowledge important but I frown upon human interpretations as human reasoning is flawed I always welcome anyone who wishes to question my beliefs.

I already believe in Buddha and Jesus.

I already know much of the similarities and dissimilarities between the Gospels and Buddhism. And I believe in both Buddha and Jesus.

But I’m happy to offer what Baha’u’llah says on any Buddhistic or Gospel teaching or concept. I think that’s fair as we can both share and perhaps learn something by exchanging views.

One important point I wish to raise and that is the topic of authenticity. Buddha did say His Dhamma would decay over time to be replaced with a counterfeit Dhamma. Are the works you wish to present signed and authenticated by the Buddha Himself?

The Baha’i Writings are all documented signed and sealed with the originals kept in Israel. Teams of professional translators have translated them into English. Baha’u’llah wrote with His own Pen and signed and sealed all His Tablets.

So agreed? But in a friendly spirit. I’m not wanting to get into a dispute but rather search out truth together.

In this thread, the comparison is about Jesus and Buddha...Bahaiullah is irrelevant. Since neither wrote anything whatsoever, authenticity can only be made plausible through historical critical analysis, but never be definitively established or refuted.

sayak83 · Mar 18, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
Authenticity is definitely a big problem. Tyat us why we constantly need Messengers to come to re establish the truth.

For us it is not. We consider the idea of authenticity as a totally irrelevant. The only question of relevance for Hindu's and Buddhists are if practicing the ideas propounded has the desired effect. If they do, they are correct. If not they are not. It is irrelevant who said it or wrote it and when. After all truth is not dependent on the identity of the speaker at all, but the content of the speech itself.

crossfire · Mar 18, 2019

sayak83 said:
For us it is not. We consider the idea of authenticity as a totally irrelevant. The only question of relevance for Hindu's and Buddhists are if practicing the ideas propounded has the desired effect. If they do, they are correct. If not they are not. It is irrelevant who said it or wrote it and when. After all truth is not dependent on the identity of the speaker at all, but the content of the speech itself.

With Buddhists, there is another thing to consider: any doctrine that preaches greed, hatred, or delusion is to be rejected as harmful, no matter how much pretzel logic is applied to try to justify it. (Greed and hatred are pretty easy to spot, but delusion can be quite tricky. A "desired effect" can be based on and propagated by delusion.) You can often tell the delusion by its fruit: people whose minds have been overcome by delusion will kill other beings, tell lies, take what is not given, go after someone else's spouse, and tell others to do the same. (See Kalama Sutta.)

arthra · Mar 18, 2019

I would encourage reading a text by Paul Carus entitled The Gospel of Buddha that you can read online:

The Gospel Of Buddha : Paul Carus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

It shows imho many parallels between the Buddha and Christ. Starting on p. 160 there are parallels between the the text and Biblical verses.

Also there was the legend of a Christian saint that appears to have been modelled after the life of the Buddha this was noted by Suzuki some years ago:

Per Wikipedia:

The tale derives from a second to fourth century Sanskrit Mahayana Buddhist text, via a Manichaean version, then the Arabic Kitab Bilawhar wa-Yudasaf (Book of Bilawhar and Yudasaf), current in Baghdad in the eighth century, from where it entered into Middle Eastern Christian circles before appearing in European versions. The two were entered in the Eastern Orthodox calendar with a feast-day on 26 August,[3] and in the Roman Martyrology in the Western Church as "Barlaam and Josaphat" on the date of 27 November.[4]

Barlaam and Josaphat - Wikipedia

ajay0 · Mar 18, 2019

InvestigateTruth said:
Look at the statement of Buddha about Himself:

"I am chief of the world,
Eldest am I in the world,
Foremost am I in the world.
This is the last birth.
There is now no more coming to be."
Miracles of Gautama Buddha - Wikipedia

Now, compare and see how those statements are the same as what Jesus said about Himself:

1.
Jesus said, I am the first, before Abraham I was
Buddha said, Eldest am I in the world,

2.
Jesus said I am the Last.
Buddha said, This is the last birth, There is now no more coming to be."

3.
Jesus said, He is the King, as Messiah is the King by definition.
Buddha said I am chief of the world,

And in the words of Bahaullah:

"They are at the same time the Exponents of both the “first” and the “last.” Whilst established upon the seat of the “first,” they occupy the throne of the “last.” Were a discerning eye to be found, it will readily perceive that the exponents of the “first” and the “last,” of the “manifest” and the “hidden,” of the “beginning” and the “seal” are none other than these holy Beings, these Essences of Detachment, these divine Souls. " Bahaullah, Book of Iqan

From the dharmic perspective, the enlightened one is often addressed as 'Maharaj' or King. This is because the enlightened one is the foremost amongst all sentient beings, and reflects the purity and auspiciousness of the incorporeal God in a corporeal form as Son.

'Nisargadatta Maharaj' is an example.

All enlightened one's in India have the term 'Maharaj' as a title,put by their followers, to denote their higher state of consciousness, which ought to be emulated. It is also considered auspicious to bow down to an enlightened one or even view him as it brings spiritual merit.

sayak83 · Mar 18, 2019

crossfire said:
With Buddhists, there is another thing to consider: any doctrine that preaches greed, hatred, or delusion is to be rejected as harmful, no matter how much pretzel logic is applied to try to justify it. (Greed and hatred are pretty easy to spot, but delusion can be quite tricky. A "desired effect" can be based on and propagated by delusion.) You can often tell the delusion by its fruit: people whose minds have been overcome by delusion will kill other beings, tell lies, take what is not given, go after someone else's spouse, and tell others to do the same. (See Kalama Sutta.)

In Buddhism, the desired effect is the reduction of dukkha. Any teaching that does not have this desired effect even when practiced with dilligence is false then, by definition.

Jumi · Mar 18, 2019

shunyadragon said:
IF God exists Creation and Revelation is God's perspective, and the attributes of God are his gifts.

God exists, but whether humans are capable of revelation is a different matter. I suppose our beliefs are not the same on this as I don't believe in progressive revelation.

wizanda · Mar 18, 2019

InvestigateTruth said:
As regards to other ideas, such as reincarnation, Bahais do not say, Krishna or buddha did not speak of rebirth, or return.

Bhagavad Gita 8.16, “From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one attains to My abode.. never takes birth again.”

Matthew 11:13-14, Matthew 17:10-13, Mark 9:12-13

Since there actually is another world (any world other than the present human one, i.e. different rebirth realms), one who holds the view 'there is no other world' has wrong view...— Buddha, Majjhima Nikaya i.402, Apannaka Sutta

Rebirth (Buddhism) - Wikipedia

Etc

In my opinion.

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