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The Qur'an: Intentions vs. Effects

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What are your thoughts regarding the Qur'an's intentions and its effects globally?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I am not a Muslim; I do believe in Abrahamic Monotheism. I am friendly to the Qur'an.

The following link was posted in a recent thread to support the idea that Islam needs to be reformed. I appreciate the opportunity to review this document in detail and comment on whether or not it has merit.

hyperlink >>> An Inquiry Into Islam: Intolerance Toward Non-Muslims in the Quran

Excerpt:

"...the Qur'an has not a single positive thing to say about non-Muslims"
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
What are your thoughts regarding the Qur'an's intentions and its effects globally?
I think, the best way to know intention of the Quran, is to see what Quran itself is saying about itself.

To my knowledge, and as I remember, the Quran makes these statements about itself:

1. A guidance to humanity, to guide them to the right path.
2. A Book from God, which contains signs to recognize its truth.
3. To warn as well as give good news. It frequently speaks about Day of Resurrection, and gives signs. About 1/3 of Quran is about prophecies of the day of resurrection.
4. A Book, by which humanity is teated.
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
A living book which opens itself to the open and closes itself to the closed. A book which many foolishly mistake to have read, a book which many have also tried to pervert. But a book with a foresight of all of this, a book you don't read, a book that reads you.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
So far, the document from Post #2 appears to be grossly mistranslated.

Its source is: "The Skeptic's Annotated Quran".
 
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ManSinha

Well-Known Member
I think, the best way to know intention of the Quran, is to see what Quran itself is saying about itself.

That is a flawed point of view to start with - I am sure whether you take Hitler or Genghis Khan - they never thought of themselves as bad people
Show me any religious text that does not purport to provide humanity with guidance - it is not unique to the Qu'ran
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
That is a flawed point of view to start with - I am sure whether you take Hitler or Genghis Khan - they never thought of themselves as bad people
Show me any religious text that does not purport to provide humanity with guidance - it is not unique to the Qu'ran
I am not saying simply accept the claim it makes. I am saying see what it claims, then investigate if it does what it says.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I am not a Muslim; I do believe in Abrahamic Monotheism. I am friendly to the Qur'an.

The following link was posted in a recent thread to support the idea that Islam needs to be reformed. I appreciate the opportunity to review this document in detail and comment on whether or not it has merit.

hyperlink >>> An Inquiry Into Islam: Intolerance Toward Non-Muslims in the Quran

Excerpt:

"...the Qur'an has not a single positive thing to say about non-Muslims"

Hi. Good to see you!

So you haven’t investigated independently but are relying on sites biased against Islam? You should get out your own Quran and rely on your own mind not see through the minds of others.

The Quran has not a single positive thing to say about non Muslims????????? DISPROVED.

A Single Positive statement about non Muslims from the Holy Quran

2:62 Truly those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabeans—whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and works righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord. No fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.

 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Here is an example of how the document that was provided in post#2 is deeply flawed.

The document gives this example:

"Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178"

Here is the text of 2:178

"O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment."
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
What are your thoughts regarding the Qur'an's intentions and its effects globally?
The qur'an is a spiritual guidance for the muslims. It was meant to guide them to be able to go to Heaven.

The Qur'an it self has no effect Globally, it is the musims who follow the qur'an that has an effect on the world.

A holy book is never the problem, it is the people who misunderstand it that is the problem
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I am still churning thru the document from post#2.

For those of you not aware of the background for this thread:

In the wake of the NZ Terrorist attacks on 2 Mosques several threads were created with the intention of supporting those in mourning and affected by the attacks.

In one of these threads people were voicing their concerns that Muslims had in some way encouraged the attack on themselves. In spite of repeated calls to pause the discussion for a few days out of respect for those in mourning and affected by the attacks, the discussion continued.

That is why I created this thread. Discussion critical to Islam was continuing in a thread where it didn't belong. One of the Islam-Critics in this discussion felt it was important to freely discuss their criticisms openly and that the discussion shouldn't be silenced.

That is why I created this thread.

Since the discussion critical to Islam was occurring already, I created this thread in order to provide a venue out and away from a thread intended to support victims of a terrorist attack and the community where it occurred.

If you are familiar with my writing here on this forum, then you know that I support Peaceful Muslims. And part of that is debunking misleading or inaccurate claims against the Qur'an and Muhammad.

In one of the threads intended to support the victims and community of the NZ Terrorist attack, one of the more respectful voices among the Islam-Critics posted the article which is linked in post#2 to support the idea that "Islam needs to be reformed". This article is anti-Islam propaganda.

Here is the Google definition of propaganda:

"information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view."

I did not know the article was propaganda at first. I only knew that it was a long list of Qur'an references that was intended to show Islam invites harm on itself.

But I do have my own internal bias which is pro-Islam. I trust my Muslim friends the same way I trust my Science teacher in High School. At some point, they were right so many times, I just can't help it; I believe them.

In this case, my Muslim friends have convinced me that the Qur'an is not what its critics claim it to be. And I trust my friends. I trust, but I verify.

And that's what I am doing with the article in post#2. I am verifying that my Muslim friends are still right.

The article that was provided to support the idea that "Islam needs to be reformed" is biased and misleading. It is propaganda.

This is not the first time that I have debunked misleading information regarding the Qur'an in support of Peaceful Muslims. I enjoy debunking myths. I enjoy it, I think, the same way that Atheists like to debunk Religious claims of Truth. So I appreciate it when articles like this are posted. I enjoy the research, and I enjoy the learning.

It also feels good to confirm for myself, to ease my own mind, to find more and more evidence that:

Islam is not evil.
Islam is not the problem.
 
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james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Qur’an

17:22: Do not associate another deity with God.

47:19: Know therefore that there is no god but God.

6:103: No visions can encompass Him, but He encompasses all visions.

14:35: My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and protect me and my children from worshiping idols.

42:11: There is nothing that equals (like) Him.

2:224: Do not use God's name in your oaths as an excuse to prevent you from dealing justly.

76:25 Glorify the name of your Lord morning and evening

17:23-24: You shall be kind to your parents. If one or both of them live to their old age in your lifetime, you shall not say to them any word of contempt nor repel them, and you shall address them in kind words. You shall lower to them the wing of humility and pray: "O Lord! Bestow on them Your blessings just as they cherished me when I was a little child."

17:33: And do not take any human being's life - that God willed to be sacred - other than in [the pursuit of] justice."

17:32: You shall not commit adultery. Surely it is a shameful deed and an evil way.

5:38 & 39: The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

25:72: And (know that the true servants of God are) those who do not bear witness to falsehood.

4:32: Do not covet the bounties that God has bestowed more abundantly on some of you than on others.

:)-
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I am still churning thru the document from post#2.

For those of you not aware of the background for this thread:

In the wake of the NZ Terrorist attacks on 2 Mosques several threads were created with the intention of supporting those in mourning and affected by the attacks.

In one of these threads people were voicing their concerns that Muslims had in some way encouraged the attack on themselves. In spite of repeated calls to pause the discussion for a few days out of respect for those in mourning and affected by the attacks, the discussion continued.

That is why I created this thread. Discussion critical to Islam was continuing in a thread where it didn't belong. One of the Islam-Critics in this discussion felt it was important to freely discuss their criticisms openly and that the discussion shouldn't be silenced.

That is why I created this thread.

Since the discussion critical to Islam was occurring already, I created this thread in order to provide a venue out and away from a thread intended to support victims of a terrorist attack and the community where it occurred.

If you are familiar with my writing here on this forum, then you know that I support Peaceful Muslims. And part of that is debunking misleading or inaccurate claims against the Qur'an and Muhammad.

In one of the threads intended to support the victims and community of the NZ Terrorist attack, one of the more respectful voices among the Islam-Critics posted the article which is linked in post#2 to support the idea that "Islam needs to be reformed". This article is anti-Islam propaganda.

Here is the Google definition of propaganda:

"information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view."

I did not know the article was propaganda at first. I only knew that it was a long list of Qur'an references that was intended to show Islam invites harm on itself.

But I do have my own internal bias which is pro-Islam. I trust my Muslim friends the same way I trust my Science teacher in High School. At some point, they were right so many times, I just can't help it; I believe them.

In this case, my Muslim friends have convinced me that the Qur'an is not what its critics claim it to be. And I trust my friends. I trust, but I verify.

And that's what I am doing with the article in post#2. I am verifying that my Muslim friends are still right.

The article that was provided to support the idea that "Islam needs to be reformed" is biased and misleading. It is propaganda.

This is not the first time that I have debunked misleading information regarding the Qur'an in support of Peaceful Muslims. I enjoy debunking myths. I enjoy it, I think, the same way that Atheists like to debunk Religious claims of Truth. So I appreciate it when articles like this are posted. I enjoy the research, and I enjoy the learning.

It also feels good to confirm for myself, to ease my own mind, to find more and more evidence that:

Islam is not evil.
Islam is not the problem.

We Baha’is believe in Muhammad and the Quran and it only has a good effect upon us.

Islam was the first religion to my knowledge to fight for, defend and uphold freedom of religion. When Muhammad raised the call of belief in one God it was seen by the Meccans as a threat to their economy which was based upon tributes from tribes towards the then 360 gods. Only one God was a real threat to profits. At first they offered Muhammad power and tried to bribe Him but when He refused the Meccans began a campaign of genocide with intent to completely wipe out all Muslims and they tried to assassinate Muhammad also. The Muslims after being tortured and ostracized and murdered for 13 years fled to Abyssinia then Medina where God revealed a verse 2:190 for them to defend themselves but only if attacked first.

It became a war of genocide vs defense of freedom of religion.

Christian historians labeled Muhammad a war monger and warlord and a satan and that was the first the West heard of Muhammad. From that misinformation anti Muslim sentiment was born, people believed without verifying even to this day.

Muslims all 1.7 billion are peace loving people. Terrorists with political motives are not Muslims as a Muslim is forbidden to commit aggression. They are murderers and assassins not Muslims but the media by calling them Muslims has planted hatred and prejudice against 1.7 innocent beautiful people.

What people need to do is look with their own eyes not other peoples prejudiced views. The Quran nowhere preaches intolerance, hatred or prejudice and murder is forbidden.

But some religious leaders with political,motives using mostly falsified Hadiths have incited terrorism.

I have always defended Muhammad and the Quran and always will because I have done the research and know that what the people have been told is mostly lies. Murderers are murderers and Muslims are Muslims and the two should never be confused. But the media deliberately does so to try and portray Islam as a violent religion which couldn’t be further from the truth.

The west needs to be told the truth about Islam now after centuries of peddled lies. It is time to expose the lies for what they are. Only the Quran is the Word of God not Hadiths nor any interpretations of it. If we use the Quran as it’s own defense then we will find I believe that Islam is a wonderful religion and of great benefit to humanity.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I think, the best way to know intention of the Quran, is to see what Quran itself is saying about itself.

A living book which opens itself to the open and closes itself to the closed. A book which many foolishly mistake to have read, a book which many have also tried to pervert. But a book with a foresight of all of this, a book you don't read, a book that reads you.

You should get out your own Quran and rely on your own mind not see through the minds of others.

I believe it's respectful to take people at their words, until you have reason not to. With that, what I've heard from Muslims over and over again, concerning the Quran, is:

A - The Quran is the perfect, unalterable, timeless word of god.

So step one in this conversation is to determine whether we can agree with claim A? But this is the context in which I think about the book. It seems disrespectful to not take Muslims at their word. Now, an important 2nd claim is this:

B - The Quran is clear and easy to understand.

At several points in the book, it declares itself to be clear and easy to understand. When taken in the context of it also being perfect, I think I'm on safe ground concluding that the book should be easy to understand. I've read the book cover to cover, and I've studied two other translations, although not cover to cover. What I've found across three different translations is that the various translators arrive at very similar translations. In other words, I think it's fair to say that we can understand the key points in this perfect and easy to understand book if all we have is good translations.

So, that's the context for my criticisms of the Quran. I await feedback on this context, and then I will explain my criticisms of the book. Fair enough?
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
I only knew that it was a long list of Qur'an references that was intended to show Islam invites harm on itself.

I do not think that is true or that it is the point - I have read enough "Jihadwatch" type sites to know exactly how they go about their business - they take lines out of context and post them as (so called) proof. But that is mainly about perceived intolerance to non Muslims
 
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ManSinha

Well-Known Member
The Quran is the perfect, unalterable, timeless word of god.

I find that difficult to accept at best - the knowledge was revealed to Muhammad who was illiterate - as well as a human being
He conveyed that knowledge to others who wrote it down

In modern days when data passes through human touches rather than interfaces there is an element of variability that is introduced as well as potential for error

Square those two facts without invoking - "It must not be that way for the Qu'ran" and then we can talk further
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I believe it's respectful to take people at their words, until you have reason not to. With that, what I've heard from Muslims over and over again, concerning the Quran, is:

A - The Quran is the perfect, unalterable, timeless word of god.

So step one in this conversation is to determine whether we can agree with claim A? But this is the context in which I think about the book. It seems disrespectful to not take Muslims at their word. Now, an important 2nd claim is this:

B - The Quran is clear and easy to understand.

At several points in the book, it declares itself to be clear and easy to understand. When taken in the context of it also being perfect, I think I'm on safe ground concluding that the book should be easy to understand. I've read the book cover to cover, and I've studied two other translations, although not cover to cover. What I've found across three different translations is that the various translators arrive at very similar translations. In other words, I think it's fair to say that we can understand the key points in this perfect and easy to understand book if all we have is good translations.

So, that's the context for my criticisms of the Quran. I await feedback on this context, and then I will explain my criticisms of the book. Fair enough?
In my view, we need to find the answer to your point from Quran, and Muslim recorded traditions.

The Quran claims to be guidance for all humanity.
As regards to claiming it to be 'timeless', nothing in the Quran as far as I know exist that claims the Shria Law is everlastingly beneficial. There are verses in Quran, that alludes the Rites are beneficial to an appointed time, which according to recorded Hadithes, the appointed time, is when the Mahdi comes, with a new Book and new teachings.
The Quran claims to be a clear Book, but at the same time it says some of its verses are figurative, and no one knows their interpretations except those who God has given them knowledge and calls them 'Well-grounded in knowledge". In another word, Quran is a clear Book to understand. So, for instance, it clearly says, some of its verses are figurative, and to know their interpretation, you need to learn from the well-grounded in knowledge. Is this not clear enough to understand? But, what happened in Islam, everyone uses his own mind to interpret rather than learning from the Well grounded in knowledge who according to Traditions, and even the Quran, are the progeny of Muhammad.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The Quran is the perfect, unalterable, timeless word of god.

I think the part that is assumed both by Critics and Terrorists is that "perfect, unalterable, and timeless" means that each verse is literal and should be taken literally on its own.

I think that there are some very disturbing verses in the Qur'an if they are taken literally on their own. But limits are put on these verses as the Qur'an proceeds.

Literal interpretation is the cause of the problem. Both the Critics and the Terrorists agree on this literal interpretation. This means that both the Critics and the Terrorists have the same mindset when approaching the Qur'an.

If someone says: "perfect, unalterable, and timeless" I don't think that means each verse is literally true on its own.

Thoughts?
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
I think that there are some very disturbing verses in the Qur'an

That is part of the problem is it not?

The SGGS is very harsh on idol worshippers but calls them "foolish" at worst -
It is harsh on individuals that do not do right by their fellow human being and calls them "misguided" (Manmukh or moorakh)

Those are the harshest statements one can find -

But as I read more - both the Bible and Qu'ran have statements that are considerably harsher and can be (and frequently are) used out of context to criticize the entire compendium

If someone says: "perfect, unalterable, and timeless" I don't think that means each verse is literally true on its own.

Which means one takes the elements that were better suited to another time and circumstance as part of the whole and tries to implement them in the current one - that is a tough situation to be in
 
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