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Do liberals and atheists honestly think Hitler represents Christianity?

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The same could be said of most British monarchs since the Reformation: doing away with either the Catholics or the Protestants, depending on which denomination was out of favour at the time.

Henry VIII sacked Christian monasteries. Christians built secret "priest holes" in their homes to hide their ministers from the pogroms ordered by his daughter... but both held the title "Defender of the Faith." How is Hitler's attitude to Christianity any different from theirs?
Not much different to Henry, I reckon
Both were thiievng, murdering, psychopaths, imo.

Mary probably believed in what she was doing.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
If it makes a regime "not Christian" to set up their own Christian denomination and suppress all the others, then every Christian theocracy that's ever existed - including the Vatican - wasn't Christian either.

Suppressing and oppressing dissenting Christian denominations is almost par for the course for Christian regimes.

Other Christian sects have rejected the Old Testament, too. Google the Marcionites, for instance, if you aren't familiar with them.

And if you think that linking Christianity with fighting war was invented by the Nazis, you might be surprised to learn about, well, virtually all of the history of Christianity.
It's not Christian because NS isn't a Christian movement. The end.
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
bull****..hitler was following a 1700 year christian tradition of murdering jews

CHRISTIANITY has a long history of doing evil things.....starting in 310ad until 1945ad christians have been murdering ..robbing..persecuting jews...to appease world history the christian dominated UN voted to give arab land to the jews...The Jews are quiet about this but the arabs are not happy... .

What happened in 310AD? What about the years before?

And on one hand you say they were murdering, robbing and persecuting Jews but then you say they gave Arab land to the Jews. You can't complain about the treatment of Jews AND Israel; either they deserved the harsh treatment and DIDN'T deserve the land or they deserved the land BECAUSE they were abused throughout Europe
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
hitler was christian as was 98+% of germany..
No, he wasn't:

"Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs have been a matter of debate; the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious, anti-Christian, anti-clerical and scientistic.[1] In light of evidence such as his fierce criticism and vocal rejection of the tenets of Christianity,[2] numerous private statements to confidants denouncing Christianity as a harmful superstition,[1] and his strenuous efforts to reduce the influence and independence of Christianity in Germany after he came to power, Hitler's major academic biographers conclude that he was irreligious and an opponent of Christianity.[1]"
Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It's not Christian because NS isn't a Christian movement. The end.
It was a movement predominantly of Christians, aimed at Christians, that was heavily influenced by Christian theology, and that produced its own Christian denomination.

How much more Christian does something have to be for you to call it "Christian?"

Heck - which Christian churches don't even meet your standard for "Christian?"
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No, he wasn't:

"Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs have been a matter of debate; the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious, anti-Christian, anti-clerical and scientistic.[1] In light of evidence such as his fierce criticism and vocal rejection of the tenets of Christianity,[2] numerous private statements to confidants denouncing Christianity as a harmful superstition,[1] and his strenuous efforts to reduce the influence and independence of Christianity in Germany after he came to power, Hitler's major academic biographers conclude that he was irreligious and an opponent of Christianity.[1]"
Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia
There's no dispute that Adolf Hitler received a valid Catholic baptism and is therefore Christian by the Catholic Church's own definition.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
There's no dispute that Adolf Hitler received a valid Catholic baptism and is therefore Christian by the Catholic Church's own definition.
Wow, you're really reaching now. So I guess I'm still a Christian because I was baptized and confirmed Catholic? We don't have a say in the matter?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
It was a movement predominantly of Christians, aimed at Christians, that was heavily influenced by Christian theology, and that produced its own Christian denomination.

How much more Christian does something have to be for you to call it "Christian?"

Heck - which Christian churches don't even meet your standard for "Christian?"
I guess the Democratic Party is Christian too, by your standards.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
It's certainly compatible with Christianity.

What theology influenced the Democrats? Which Christian denominations has it produced?
My point is that Germany was a Christian country with a Christian population. They had to be pragmatic and work with what they had. The NSDAP wasn't influenced by theology. It grew out of volkisch, ultranationalist, scientific racist, Nordicist and anti-Semitic circles, along with disenchanted WWI vets who believed powerful Jews and leftist stabbed them in the back and made them lose the war. It had nothing to do with Christianity, really. Most of the senior Nazis were into Paganism and occultism, which you seem bent on ignoring. You also ignored Rosenberg's actual plans for the "Positive Christianity" movement that I posted.
 

mickt

Member
No, he wasn't:

"Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs have been a matter of debate; the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious, anti-Christian, anti-clerical and scientistic.[1] In light of evidence such as his fierce criticism and vocal rejection of the tenets of Christianity,[2] numerous private statements to confidants denouncing Christianity as a harmful superstition,[1] and his strenuous efforts to reduce the influence and independence of Christianity in Germany after he came to power, Hitler's major academic biographers conclude that he was irreligious and an opponent of Christianity.[1]"
Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia
Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922, and published in his "My New Order":

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

"Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice ...

"And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.
 

mickt

Member
What happened in 310AD? What about the years before?

And on one hand you say they were murdering, robbing and persecuting Jews but then you say they gave Arab land to the Jews. You can't complain about the treatment of Jews AND Israel; either they deserved the harsh treatment and DIDN'T deserve the land or they deserved the land BECAUSE they were abused throughout Europe
306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews. 3,4

337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.

bullet 339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.

bullet 343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety." 5

bullet 367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.

bullet 379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.

bullet 380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."

bullet 415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.

bullet 415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

bullet 418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."

bullet 489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.

bullet 528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court. 3

bullet 535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians." 3

bullet 538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that "From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians." 5 Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism. 4

bullet 561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.
bullet 613: Very serious persecution began in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education

bullet 692: Cannnon II of the Quinisext Council stated: "Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman, let him be cut off." 5

bullet 694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their alleged responsibility for the execution of Jesus. 5

bullet 722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.

bullet 855: Jews were exiled from Italy.

bullet 1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.

bullet 1078: "Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Christians." 6

bullet 1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
What happened in 310AD? What about the years before?

And on one hand you say they were murdering, robbing and persecuting Jews but then you say they gave Arab land to the Jews. You can't complain about the treatment of Jews AND Israel; either they deserved the harsh treatment and DIDN'T deserve the land or they deserved the land BECAUSE they were abused throughout Europe

They deserved the best land in Germany..

The Palestinians shouldn't have paid for Hitler and the Holocaust.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922, and published in his "My New Order":

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

"Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice ...

"And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.
It's called lying and propaganda. No historian takes his statements there at face value. What he said to the public and what his private remarks were, were totally different. If you bothered to read the article I linked, it discusses that. The historical consensus is clear on that point.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922, and published in his "My New Order":

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

"Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice ...

"And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

Hitler was no Christian. He's just working the mob with that speech.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
My point is that Germany was a Christian country with a Christian population. They had to be pragmatic and work with what they had.
Right: Naziism was constructed to be compatible with Christianity.

The NSDAP wasn't influenced by theology.
Except that it was. We've been over this: Hitler drew heavily from Luther's anti-Semitic religious writings.

It grew out of volkisch, ultranationalist, scientific racist, Nordicist and anti-Semitic circles, along with disenchanted WWI vets who believed powerful Jews and leftist stabbed them in the back and made them lose the war.
... with Christianity permeating and informing all of it.

It had nothing to do with Christianity, really. Most of the senior Nazis were into Paganism and occultism, which you seem bent on ignoring.
It's generally irrelevant. Pagan influences don't make a thing "not Christian." Look at all the various Pagan festivals that got repurposed as Christian holidays. Look at all the Pagan gods who got repackaged as Christian saints.

It's not a zero-sum game where "more Pagan" = "less Christian."

You also ignored Rosenberg's actual plans for the "Positive Christianity" movement that I posted.
You argued that Rosenberg pushed for his own particular brand of Christianity. You underscored my own point.

As I've said several times now: promoting one version of Christianity and suppressing all others is part of the standard playbook for a Christian theocracy.
 

mickt

Member
Hitler was no Christian. He's just working the mob with that speech.
who said this??.....
First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,...
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed... They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews...
Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping...
Seventhly, let the young and strong Jews and Jewesses be given the flail, the axe, the hoe, the spade, the distaff, and spindle and let them earn their bread by the sweat of their noses as in enjoined upon Adam's children...
To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...................===================WAS THIS GUY CHRISTIAN?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Wow, you're really reaching now. So I guess I'm still a Christian because I was baptized and confirmed Catholic? We don't have a say in the matter?
In the eyes of the Catholic Church, yes.

I think it's ridiculous myself, but this is how the - decidedly Christian - Spanish Inquisition justified wholesale killing of Jews: it only had jurisdiction over Christians, but if they could get an old household servant of a Jewish family to testify that she had secretly baptized the now-head of the family as an infant, then he was subject to the Inquisition... and had spent a lifetime committing the "sin" of "Judaizing," so he would be condemned and executed.
 
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