A simple case for intelligent design

ecco · Mar 14, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
Wait a moment--I thought you thought the Bible wasn't written by God, but by people?!

The people who wrote the Bible (secular writers according to you) claim Moses wrote the Law while on Mt. Sinai.

They do? I never claimed I knew who wrote down the ancient oral myths. If anything, I stated that a Moses would have no way of knowing what and when God did anything.

BilliardsBall said:
Since theirs is the oldest documentation extant, you have the burden of proof to show counter-documents contemporaneous to the period, not to cite modern secular scholars judging Moses while sitting in leather armchairs.

Nonsense. Modern scholars research ancient documents and make informed decisions as to the validity of those documents.

What value is there in a "contemporaneous" document that has been shown to be written for the sole purpose adding to myth and lore or, worse yet, a forgery.

gnostic · Mar 14, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
Wait a moment--I thought you thought the Bible wasn't written by God, but by people?!

The people who wrote the Bible (secular writers according to you) claim Moses wrote the Law while on Mt. Sinai. Since theirs is the oldest documentation extant, you have the burden of proof to show counter-documents contemporaneous to the period, not to cite modern secular scholars judging Moses while sitting in leather armchairs.

That’s BS.

You are telling us that anyone who criticizes the Bible to be an “armchair critic”, but judging by your reply to ecco, you are an “armchair apologist”.

The oldest extant evidence are not in the various translations, like the Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls, or the Samaritan Torah.

You would agree that the narratives in Genesis and Exodus, from Noah (Noah’s Flood) to Moses, are stories set in the Bronze Age, right?

Where the stories are “set” (eg the events), and when they were written, are not the same things.

By traditions, both from Jews and Christians, the Jewish Torah and the Christian Pentateuch, were supposedly written by Moses. This is “attribute”, not actual “author”.

Here, are the facts. There are no written Torah or Pentateuch that survive from the Bronze Age, not even in fragments.

The oldest extant records you have is the Silver Scrolls found in the cave called Ketef Hinnom, and the fragments of silver scrolls, that are legible and havebeen identified as passage from Numbers 6, the Priestly Blessings.

These fragments, along with other artefacts found with the Silver Scrolls, have been dated to between late 7th century and early 6th century BCE, so anywhere between the reign of King Josiah (649 - 609 BCE) and the fall of Jerusalem (587 BCE).

We know that Josiah was the one who commissioned the deuteronomical reform, which instituting monotheism of Judaism, as a state religion, and producing the Torah. Unfortunately, many of the things written in Josiah’s time were lost, and the only thing that survived is the Silver Scrolls that could be dated later half of his reign.

The Silver Scrolls is therefore dated in the middle of the Iron Age, not in the Bronze Age, in which the earlier ages, there are no Bronze Age whole or extant writing that can be identified as part of the Torah, no parchments, no papyri, no clay or stone tablets, and no writings painted on walls of tombs, on coffins or pottery. There are no hieroglyph, cuneiform or early alphabet of the late Bronze Age of Moses’ writings.

Now, unless you can produce the original texts or copies dated to the mid- to late 2nd millennium BCE, the actual burden of proof falls on you and those actually believe Moses wrote the Torah around this time.

I know that are no such writings of at this period - not the Genesis, not the Exodus. The Silver Scrolls of Ketef Hinnom are your only “earliest” evidence of the existence of Moses’ alleged authorship, and it in no way prove Moses, Abraham, Noah or Adam exist historically.

BilliardsBall · Mar 15, 2019

Jose Fly said:
It's from this page: Greater Than 98% Chimp/Human DNA Similarity? Not Any More.

And just like @BilliardsBall they merely note the difference in telomere repeats but never explain why it's significant.

You are unaware that telomeres are linked to survivability and longevity? You are unaware that 10,000 genetic changes is a "decent amount" of change?

Jose Fly · Mar 15, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
You are unaware that telomeres are linked to survivability and longevity? You are unaware that 10,000 genetic changes is a "decent amount" of change?

And there's your problem. You blindly copied this bullet point from AiG with no idea whatsoever about the subject matter. I'll repeat....the paper you cited answers every question you've been asking. Why don't you go read it?

BilliardsBall · Mar 15, 2019

ecco said:
They do? I never claimed I knew who wrote down the ancient oral myths. If anything, I stated that a Moses would have no way of knowing what and when God did anything.

Nonsense. Modern scholars research ancient documents and make informed decisions as to the validity of those documents.

What value is there in a "contemporaneous" document that has been shown to be written for the sole purpose adding to myth and lore or, worse yet, a forgery.

What is your proof that any of the documents then were forgeries or myth? Forensic proof? Eyewitness proof? Or more subjectivity, and rhetoric?

BilliardsBall · Mar 15, 2019

gnostic said:
That’s BS.

You are telling us that anyone who criticizes the Bible to be an “armchair critic”, but judging by your reply to ecco, you are an “armchair apologist”.

The oldest extant evidence are not in the various translations, like the Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls, or the Samaritan Torah.

You would agree that the narratives in Genesis and Exodus, from Noah (Noah’s Flood) to Moses, are stories set in the Bronze Age, right?

Where the stories are “set” (eg the events), and when they were written, are not the same things.

By traditions, both from Jews and Christians, the Jewish Torah and the Christian Pentateuch, were supposedly written by Moses. This is “attribute”, not actual “author”.

Here, are the facts. There are no written Torah or Pentateuch that survive from the Bronze Age, not even in fragments.

The oldest extant records you have is the Silver Scrolls found in the cave called Ketef Hinnom, and the fragments of silver scrolls, that are legible and havebeen identified as passage from Numbers 6, the Priestly Blessings.

These fragments, along with other artefacts found with the Silver Scrolls, have been dated to between late 7th century and early 6th century BCE, so anywhere between the reign of King Josiah (649 - 609 BCE) and the fall of Jerusalem (587 BCE).

We know that Josiah was the one who commissioned the deuteronomical reform, which instituting monotheism of Judaism, as a state religion, and producing the Torah. Unfortunately, many of the things written in Josiah’s time were lost, and the only thing that survived is the Silver Scrolls that could be dated later half of his reign.

The Silver Scrolls is therefore dated in the middle of the Iron Age, not in the Bronze Age, in which the earlier ages, there are no Bronze Age whole or extant writing that can be identified as part of the Torah, no parchments, no papyri, no clay or stone tablets, and no writings painted on walls of tombs, on coffins or pottery. There are no hieroglyph, cuneiform or early alphabet of the late Bronze Age of Moses’ writings.

Now, unless you can produce the original texts or copies dated to the mid- to late 2nd millennium BCE, the actual burden of proof falls on you and those actually believe Moses wrote the Torah around this time.

I know that are no such writings of at this period - not the Genesis, not the Exodus. The Silver Scrolls of Ketef Hinnom are your only “earliest” evidence of the existence of Moses’ alleged authorship, and it in no way prove Moses, Abraham, Noah or Adam exist historically.

1) It WOULD be dishonest to claim the Dead Sea Scrolls, Septuagint, etc. lack probative value.

2) Some might think that atheists would be content with simply not believing in God and leave the theists to themselves. After all, if God doesn't exist, then what's the big deal? Why not let the theists believe in God the way a child believes in the tooth fairy? To the atheist, neither exists. So why bother?

Bear Wild · Mar 15, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
You are unaware that telomeres are linked to survivability and longevity? You are unaware that 10,000 genetic changes is a "decent amount" of change?

Yes telomere length decreases with aging of cells as I already pointed out but did you know that other apes have longer telomeres and mice even longer of the repeating sequences?

ecco · Mar 15, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
What is your proof that any of the documents then were forgeries or myth? Forensic proof? Eyewitness proof? Or more subjectivity, and rhetoric?

Name a document that you believe is an actual eyewitness account of an actual significant event and I'll look into it.

In the meantime...
Museum Of The Bible Says 5 Of Its Most Famed Artifacts Are Fake

Museum Of The Bible Says 5 Of Its Most Famed Artifacts Are Fake
October 23, 20186:56 AM ET

A team of German experts analyzed the privately funded Washington, D.C., museum's fragments and found they had "characteristics inconsistent with ancient origin." The fragments will no longer be displayed at the museum.

"Though we had hoped the testing would render different results, this is an opportunity to educate the public on the importance of verifying the authenticity of rare biblical artifacts, the elaborate testing process undertaken and our commitment to transparency," said Jeffrey Kloha, chief curatorial officer for the museum, said in a news release.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered from the late 1940s to 1956. The ancient Hebrew manuscripts have been a source of fascination and debate ever since.

The Dead Sea Scrolls fragments had been displayed since the museum's grand opening in November 2017. Questions about the fragments' authenticity were raised two years ago by museum-funded scholars in an academic publication.

ecco · Mar 15, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
Some might think that atheists would be content with simply not believing in God and leave the theists to themselves.

The majority of findings of forgeries and papers regarding the lack of authenticity of biblical characters and events come mostly from religious scholars, not from atheists.

In the case of Bart Ehrman, he was a born again Christian until his research convinced him otherwise.

gnostic · Mar 15, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
2) Some might think that atheists would be content with simply not believing in God and leave the theists to themselves. After all, if God doesn't exist, then what's the big deal? Why not let the theists believe in God the way a child believes in the tooth fairy? To the atheist, neither exists. So why bother?

What does atheists have to do with what I had last posted?

My last post had to do with the earliest literary evidences of the any Old Testament writings.

The scroll fragments (ie Priestly Blessings Of Numbers 6) at Ketef Hinnom is the earliest copy in which we have been dated to some where between the later half of King Josiah’s reign and just before the fall of Jerusalem.

There are no other evidences that are than the late 7th century BCE. There are no contemporary original sources from the Bronze Age, especially of Moses from Mount Sinai.

BilliardsBall said:
The people who wrote the Bible (secular writers according to you) claim Moses wrote the Law while on Mt. Sinai. Since theirs is the oldest documentation extant, you have the burden of proof to show counter-documents contemporaneous to the period, not to cite modern secular scholars judging Moses while sitting in leather armchairs.

Your words “Since theirs is the oldest documentation extant”.

In order to claim that the “oldest documentation extant”, you would need to present evidence(s) of clay or stone tablets, or scrolls, or parchments, or texts inscribed on pottery, coffins, doorframe, walls, etc, that quoted some passages from the Torah (Moses’ Law), that are dated to between 1600 to 1300 BCE (hence Late Bronze Age).

You have no such extant documentation to the Late Bronze Age, not in hieroglyphs, in cuneiform or in early Proto-Canaanite (or paleo-Hebrew) alphabet, containing any passages from the books attributed to Moses.

BilliardsBall said:
1) It WOULD be dishonest to claim the Dead Sea Scrolls, Septuagint, etc. lack probative value.

Clearly neither texts are the earliest (oldest) documentation extant to Moses’ Law.

The Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls, all began in the early Hellenistic period, not in the Bronze Age, therefore not contemporary to Moses, if he existed at all.

I am no way discounting the values of Qumran or the Septuagint texts, but they are certainly not as old as anyone can hope for. And their values are immeasurable.

I am not the one who would destroy or burn book, even if I don’t believe or disagree with them. I actually love books, and that include the Bible (translations, of course) sitting on my bookshelf. But my small collection of books would also include Egyptian Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, Book of the Dead, the Sumerian-Akkadian epics (eg Of Gilgamesh, of Atrahasis and the Enûma Eliš) and hymns, the Ugaritic-Canaanite tales of Ba’al, Anat and El, the Greek Iliad, Odyssey, Pindar’s odes, the Athenian tragedies, the Argonautica, the Roman Aeneid and Metamorphoses, the Norse sagas and the Edda, and so on.

All of the stories, that love to read, but not necessary requiring my belief. My favorite book in the entire Bible is the Genesis, in particular the Creation and the Flood, but it doesn’t mean I have to believe them to be true in order to enjoy the stories.

I enjoyed looking at artwork, painting and sculptures, but does that mean I have to be a painter or sculptor to love arts?

I enjoyed learning fields in physics and astronomy that I have never study before when I was in high school or universities, but that doesn’t mean I cannot learn stuff on my own.

I am agnostic, not atheist. What I choose to read and what I believe in, are my own. And they are not the same things.

As to atheists you are talking about, you have a very narrow and biased view of what they choose to read.

And you are also forgetting that some atheists here have religious background in their past, so some of them do have understanding of the Bible, some even better than you.

You are stereotyping atheists as if they all don’t have past, as if they don’t have understanding of the Bible.

BilliardsBall · Mar 18, 2019

Wild Fox said:
Yes telomere length decreases with aging of cells as I already pointed out but did you know that other apes have longer telomeres and mice even longer of the repeating sequences?

I did, now explain why each of you as skeptics goalpost shift constantly here, from "there are countless (for practical purposes) genetic differences in the 1% difference between humans and chimps, but all those genetic changes, even though there's not time for them to occur, are irrelevant for speciation". I call baloney.

BilliardsBall · Mar 18, 2019

ecco said:
Name a document that you believe is an actual eyewitness account of an actual significant event and I'll look into it.

In the meantime...
Museum Of The Bible Says 5 Of Its Most Famed Artifacts Are Fake

Museum Of The Bible Says 5 Of Its Most Famed Artifacts Are Fake
October 23, 20186:56 AM ET

A team of German experts analyzed the privately funded Washington, D.C., museum's fragments and found they had "characteristics inconsistent with ancient origin." The fragments will no longer be displayed at the museum.

"Though we had hoped the testing would render different results, this is an opportunity to educate the public on the importance of verifying the authenticity of rare biblical artifacts, the elaborate testing process undertaken and our commitment to transparency," said Jeffrey Kloha, chief curatorial officer for the museum, said in a news release.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered from the late 1940s to 1956. The ancient Hebrew manuscripts have been a source of fascination and debate ever since.

The Dead Sea Scrolls fragments had been displayed since the museum's grand opening in November 2017. Questions about the fragments' authenticity were raised two years ago by museum-funded scholars in an academic publication.

I've named the 66 books of the Bible, written by 40 authors over 1,500 years--all testifying to Jehovah God and His Son. Please review human history and tell me they are "insignificant" (rolls eyes).

BilliardsBall · Mar 18, 2019

ecco said:
The majority of findings of forgeries and papers regarding the lack of authenticity of biblical characters and events come mostly from religious scholars, not from atheists.

In the case of Bart Ehrman, he was a born again Christian until his research convinced him otherwise.

And... why can't YOU let us believe in Santa Claus, why are YOU excited about Bart Ehrman and destroying faith? (rhetorical, need not answer).

BilliardsBall · Mar 18, 2019

gnostic said:
What does atheists have to do with what I had last posted?

My last post had to do with the earliest literary evidences of the any Old Testament writings.

The scroll fragments (ie Priestly Blessings Of Numbers 6) at Ketef Hinnom is the earliest copy in which we have been dated to some where between the later half of King Josiah’s reign and just before the fall of Jerusalem.

There are no other evidences that are than the late 7th century BCE. There are no contemporary original sources from the Bronze Age, especially of Moses from Mount Sinai.

Your words “Since theirs is the oldest documentation extant”.

In order to claim that the “oldest documentation extant”, you would need to present evidence(s) of clay or stone tablets, or scrolls, or parchments, or texts inscribed on pottery, coffins, doorframe, walls, etc, that quoted some passages from the Torah (Moses’ Law), that are dated to between 1600 to 1300 BCE (hence Late Bronze Age).

You have no such extant documentation to the Late Bronze Age, not in hieroglyphs, in cuneiform or in early Proto-Canaanite (or paleo-Hebrew) alphabet, containing any passages from the books attributed to Moses.

Clearly neither texts are the earliest (oldest) documentation extant to Moses’ Law.

The Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls, all began in the early Hellenistic period, not in the Bronze Age, therefore not contemporary to Moses, if he existed at all.

I am no way discounting the values of Qumran or the Septuagint texts, but they are certainly not as old as anyone can hope for. And their values are immeasurable.

I am not the one who would destroy or burn book, even if I don’t believe or disagree with them. I actually love books, and that include the Bible (translations, of course) sitting on my bookshelf. But my small collection of books would also include Egyptian Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, Book of the Dead, the Sumerian-Akkadian epics (eg Of Gilgamesh, of Atrahasis and the Enûma Eliš) and hymns, the Ugaritic-Canaanite tales of Ba’al, Anat and El, the Greek Iliad, Odyssey, Pindar’s odes, the Athenian tragedies, the Argonautica, the Roman Aeneid and Metamorphoses, the Norse sagas and the Edda, and so on.

All of the stories, that love to read, but not necessary requiring my belief. My favorite book in the entire Bible is the Genesis, in particular the Creation and the Flood, but it doesn’t mean I have to believe them to be true in order to enjoy the stories.

I enjoyed looking at artwork, painting and sculptures, but does that mean I have to be a painter or sculptor to love arts?

I enjoyed learning fields in physics and astronomy that I have never study before when I was in high school or universities, but that doesn’t mean I cannot learn stuff on my own.

I am agnostic, not atheist. What I choose to read and what I believe in, are my own. And they are not the same things.

As to atheists you are talking about, you have a very narrow and biased view of what they choose to read.

And you are also forgetting that some atheists here have religious background in their past, so some of them do have understanding of the Bible, some even better than you.

You are stereotyping atheists as if they all don’t have past, as if they don’t have understanding of the Bible.

You misunderstand "theirs" being extant:

What do you have that predates the sea scrolls? And since the Essenes were awaiting the Messiah by copying the Hebrew scriptures, how do you not know they are copying from older traditions?

tas8831 · Mar 18, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
I did, now explain why each of you as skeptics goalpost shift constantly here, from "there are countless (for practical purposes) genetic differences in the 1% difference between humans and chimps, but all those genetic changes, even though there's not time for them to occur, are irrelevant for speciation". I call baloney.

I call baloney on the bolded part.

Polymath257 · Mar 18, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
You are unaware that telomeres are linked to survivability and longevity? You are unaware that 10,000 genetic changes is a "decent amount" of change?

Do you know how the telomeres are related to longetivity and survivability? Every time a cell divides, the telomeres shorten a bit. Once they are too short, the cell is prevented from dividing.

So, longer telomeres allows for more cell divisions. This is potentially bad because the problem of cancer cells is that they don't stop dividing when they should. The telomeres are thereby a protection against some cancers.

On the other hand, if cells can't divide, they age and the result is a host of issues we identify as old age. So, potentially, making the telomers NOT shorten would lead to a longer life span.

Now, given this, what is the effect of that 10,000 base pair difference in the telomeres? How many cell divisions are typically done and how much does that affect the telomeres? How long are the telomeres in other species? Does that 10,000 base pairs represent a significant difference given the biological function?

Subduction Zone · Mar 18, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
I've named the 66 books of the Bible, written by 40 authors over 1,500 years--all testifying to Jehovah God and His Son. Please review human history and tell me they are "insignificant" (rolls eyes).

The span that they were written over is much shorter than that. You are making the error of assuming that Moses was a real person instead of a fictional construct. Modern scholars date such works to after the Babylonian captivity. Which is also why Job is often thought to be the perhaps the oldest book in the Bible.

At any rate the Bible hardly qualifies as reliable evidence. It has so many errors in it that to call it the "word of God" is blasphemous. One calls God an incompetent liar when he tries to make that claim.

Subduction Zone · Mar 18, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
And... why can't YOU let us believe in Santa Claus, why are YOU excited about Bart Ehrman and destroying faith? (rhetorical, need not answer).

Because Bible believers try to pass on their false beliefs to others, and that is harmful. If you want to keep those beliefs to yourself that is fine. As shown by the debating styles of most creationists they seem to know deep down that none of the evidence supports them. If they believed that the evidence supported them they would not use improper debating techniques. As far as Bart Ehrman goes any time that a person drops false beliefs it is a good thing for humanity.

Shad · Mar 18, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
Some might think that atheists would be content with simply not believing in God and leave the theists to themselves. After all, if God doesn't exist, then what's the big deal? Why not let the theists believe in God the way a child believes in the tooth fairy? To the atheist, neither exists. So why bother?

When I look around the world with no theist injecting their God babble into government, I will. Santa believers are not trying to inject the naughty and nice list into the criminal code.

tas8831 · Mar 18, 2019

delete

A simple case for intelligent design

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