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A simple case for intelligent design

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
What are they, and how did you calculate that they are "not accounted for easily with under 60 million years of evolution?"

I've mentioned the 10,000 telomere difference and cited the source. You have no right to pursue me for discussing what I've written to others, if you don't actually read what I wrote!
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I've mentioned the 10,000 telomere difference and cited the source. You have no right to pursue me for discussing what I've written to others, if you don't actually read what I wrote!
I have read it all. I don't see where you explained what the "extraordinary differences at the genetic level between humans and apes, not accounted for easily with under 60 million years of evolution" actually are. What are we talking about here? I don't think it's telomeres.

I've also seen many people explain your source material to you. But you write as if nobody has done that.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Again, you feel free to say I cannot refute biology,...

You don't have the training to refute biology. Neither do I. You make silly arguments from a standpoint of ignorance. I accept the findings of thousands of trained scientists.




...

but you take incorrect potshots at Genesis, for example, this brilliant bit of commentary you gave:

"I don't need training in greek to know there is nothing that states who actually wrote Genesis."

GENESIS WAS WRITTEN IN HEBREW.


I wasn't commenting on what language anything was written in. I was stating that no one knows who wrote Genesis.

More accurately, it is important to understand that, regardless of who inscribed the words, the stories are based on oral traditions of ancients. These stories are, to a large extent, copied from other religions.

How do I know this? I believe the findings of hundreds of biblical scholars, including Hebrews and Christians.

That's the difference between us. I rely on the consensus of trained, educated professional researchers in various fields of endeavor. You rely on your own opinions bolstered by a few die-hard fundamentalists.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Is this thread really still going? I keep checking to see if anybody has changed their minds. So far...nope.
Not sure why evolutionists would feel compelled to change our minds about anything. All we get from creationists are 'questions' that they think we cannot answer, and upon getting answers, they pull the old "oh yeah? Well, how do you explain THIS???" routine. And that on top of a pretty obvious near total lack of basic knowledge about the things they ask their questions about in the first place.
So again, no reason for an evolutionist to change their mind.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I have read it all. I don't see where you explained what the "extraordinary differences at the genetic level between humans and apes, not accounted for easily with under 60 million years of evolution" actually are. What are we talking about here? I don't think it's telomeres.

I've also seen many people explain your source material to you. But you write as if nobody has done that.

You read it all, but don't understand that there is a 10,000 telomere difference between primates on the scene less than 60 million years ago and modern humans? Every single generation would have to lose telomeres AND this change would have to spread among the population to make humans, for one example. And whether you say primates are close to humans (some count 1% genetic difference, some more like a dozen percent) the differences are vast.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You don't have the training to refute biology. Neither do I. You make silly arguments from a standpoint of ignorance. I accept the findings of thousands of trained scientists.







I wasn't commenting on what language anything was written in. I was stating that no one knows who wrote Genesis.

More accurately, it is important to understand that, regardless of who inscribed the words, the stories are based on oral traditions of ancients. These stories are, to a large extent, copied from other religions.

How do I know this? I believe the findings of hundreds of biblical scholars, including Hebrews and Christians.

That's the difference between us. I rely on the consensus of trained, educated professional researchers in various fields of endeavor. You rely on your own opinions bolstered by a few die-hard fundamentalists.

I've been influenced by known authors and anonymous authors, but your assertion that Genesis is of unknown authorship is laughable to Christians (Moses) and secular scholars, even atheist scholars (YEDP theory, Nehemiah theory, etc.).

I agree that you cannot argue biology successfully, either. It's your lack of Bible training that concerns me on your religiousforums output, however.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You read it all, but don't understand that there is a 10,000 telomere difference between primates on the scene less than 60 million years ago and modern humans? Every single generation would have to lose telomeres AND this change would have to spread among the population to make humans, for one example.

The difference in pairs of chromosomes between humans and other primates came about as a result of two ancestral ape chromosomes fusing together at their telomeres, so that we ended up with Human Chromosome 2, which of course, other primates do not have, because theirs remained separate.Unlike the other chromosomes, Chromosome 2 has telomere sequences in the middle of it (aka “vestigial telomeres”), in addition to the sequences regularly found at both ends, as in regular chromosomes.

So, that explains a lot of the “vast” differences you may be talking about (though you haven’t stated what they are yet).

Origin of human chromosome 2: an ancestral telomere-telomere fusion.
The evolution of African great ape subtelomeric heterochromatin and the fusion of human chromosome 2
2005 Release: Scientists Analyze Chromosomes 2 and 4


And whether you say primates are close to humans (some count 1% genetic difference, some more like a dozen percent) the differences are vast.

I guess I'll ask again.

What are the vast differences you keep alluding to that make you think the that chimps (or other primates) and humans are not closely related? Have you ever seen other primates before?
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
I've been influenced by known authors and anonymous authors, but your assertion that Genesis is of unknown authorship is laughable to Christians (Moses) and secular scholars, even atheist scholars (YEDP theory, Nehemiah theory, etc.).

Your belief that Moses wrote Genesis has been outdated for many, many years.

Book of Genesis - Wikipedia
For much of the 20th century most scholars agreed that the five books of the Pentateuch—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy—came from four sources, the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly source, each telling the same basic story, and joined together by various editors.[16] Since the 1970s there has been a revolution leading scholars to view the Elohist source as no more than a variation on the Yahwist, and the Priestly source as a body of revisions and expansions to the Yahwist (or "non-Priestly") material. (The Deuteronomistic source does not appear in Genesis.)[17]

Genesis is perhaps best seen as an example of a creation myth, a type of literature telling of the first appearance of humans, the stories of ancestors and heroes, and the origins of culture, cities and so forth.[20] The most notable examples are found in the work of Greek historians of the 6th century BC: their intention was to connect notable families of their own day to a distant and heroic past, and in doing so they did not distinguish between myth, legend, and facts.​



Please be good enough to show writings from Secular scholars that Moses wrote Genesis. Also, please explain, with supporting documentation, how Moses knew what God did on the fifth day.






I agree that you cannot argue biology successfully, either. It's your lack of Bible training that concerns me on your religiousforums output, however.
If you want to refer to your indoctrination as "Bible Training" that's your prerogative. I will gladly admit that I was not indoctrinated. Instead, I take my understanding of Genesis from a careful reading. I take my understanding of the origins of Genesis from scholars who know much more than either you or I.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I'm not seeking your information as much as numbers. See my remarks elsewhere on telomeres and the many differences between humans and other primates.
You either did not read the article or do not understand genetics and what telomeres are. As it has been pointed out these are repeating sequences to protect the chromosome and just because other primates have 23 kbp compared to our 10 kbp has no meaning in reference to the similarity of the sequences. The length is controlled by other genetic sequences that are well conserved between different organisms and the amount of base pairs decreases with age. You need to understand the topic before you use it inappropriately as support for what you want to believe in.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You either did not read the article or do not understand genetics and what telomeres are. As it has been pointed out these are repeating sequences to protect the chromosome and just because other primates have 23 kbp compared to our 10 kbp has no meaning in reference to the similarity of the sequences. The length is controlled by other genetic sequences that are well conserved between different organisms and the amount of base pairs decreases with age. You need to understand the topic before you use it inappropriately as support for what you want to believe in.

And... how do you account for the 10,000 telomere difference during rapid evolution--primates to humans? Age being taken into account by the scientists (not Creation scientists) who compared a number of species...
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The difference in pairs of chromosomes between humans and other primates came about as a result of two ancestral ape chromosomes fusing together at their telomeres, so that we ended up with Human Chromosome 2, which of course, other primates do not have, because theirs remained separate.Unlike the other chromosomes, Chromosome 2 has telomere sequences in the middle of it (aka “vestigial telomeres”), in addition to the sequences regularly found at both ends, as in regular chromosomes.

So, that explains a lot of the “vast” differences you may be talking about (though you haven’t stated what they are yet).

Origin of human chromosome 2: an ancestral telomere-telomere fusion.
The evolution of African great ape subtelomeric heterochromatin and the fusion of human chromosome 2
2005 Release: Scientists Analyze Chromosomes 2 and 4




I guess I'll ask again.

What are the vast differences you keep alluding to that make you think the that chimps (or other primates) and humans are not closely related? Have you ever seen other primates before?

Are you claiming you can account for all 10,000 telomere differences thusly?

Are you ignorant that 1%, let alone 13% difference, is a HUGE amount of encoded genetic information? You are guilty of a typical "look at the upright skeletons" fallacy style of logic. Genetics and math sweep away most of macro-evolution nonsense IMHO.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Your belief that Moses wrote Genesis has been outdated for many, many years.

Book of Genesis - Wikipedia
For much of the 20th century most scholars agreed that the five books of the Pentateuch—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy—came from four sources, the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly source, each telling the same basic story, and joined together by various editors.[16] Since the 1970s there has been a revolution leading scholars to view the Elohist source as no more than a variation on the Yahwist, and the Priestly source as a body of revisions and expansions to the Yahwist (or "non-Priestly") material. (The Deuteronomistic source does not appear in Genesis.)[17]

Genesis is perhaps best seen as an example of a creation myth, a type of literature telling of the first appearance of humans, the stories of ancestors and heroes, and the origins of culture, cities and so forth.[20] The most notable examples are found in the work of Greek historians of the 6th century BC: their intention was to connect notable families of their own day to a distant and heroic past, and in doing so they did not distinguish between myth, legend, and facts.​



Please be good enough to show writings from Secular scholars that Moses wrote Genesis. Also, please explain, with supporting documentation, how Moses knew what God did on the fifth day.







If you want to refer to your indoctrination as "Bible Training" that's your prerogative. I will gladly admit that I was not indoctrinated. Instead, I take my understanding of Genesis from a careful reading. I take my understanding of the origins of Genesis from scholars who know much more than either you or I.

Wait a moment--I thought you thought the Bible wasn't written by God, but by people?!

The people who wrote the Bible (secular writers according to you) claim Moses wrote the Law while on Mt. Sinai. Since theirs is the oldest documentation extant, you have the burden of proof to show counter-documents contemporaneous to the period, not to cite modern secular scholars judging Moses while sitting in leather armchairs.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
BB did not read the article, without attribution he cut and pasted from Answers in Genesis.
Yeah, that much is obvious since he's now running around demanding an explanation for this difference in telomere repeat regions......even though the explanation is in the paper he's been citing.

"Answers in Genesis" set him up to fail and now that the failure has come to pass, we get to watch the ensuing spectacle of him trying to save face.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Yeah, that much is obvious since he's now running around demanding an explanation for this difference in telomere repeat regions......even though the explanation is in the paper he's been citing.

"Answers in Genesis" set him up to fail and now that the failure has come to pass, we get to watch the ensuing spectacle of him trying to save face.
I knew it was from Answers in Genesis! I could just feel it. :D
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Great, thanks!
:)

Hmm, I see that. Perhaps that's why I can't get any answers as to why and how this is significant.
Yup, that's how they set their followers up to fail. What I can never figure out is why folks like BB never learn and just keep going back to AiG for more. When I've been burned by a source I don't use it again. But I guess with creationists, as long as places like AiG tell them what they want to hear they'll continue to trust them.
 
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