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"1,000 Scientists Sign Up to Dissent from Darwin"

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
No, I am saying the developmental differences between chimps and humans are produced by fewer than 200 mutations.

The telomeres are irrelevant to the developmental differences.

So, the 10,000 telomere differences are irrelevant not only to developmental differences, but the "fewer than 200 mutations"? Hmmm... your math is still off.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
So there are a different number of repeats of the standard sequence. That is *easily* a product of a single event.

And, again, that is irrelevant to the developmental differences between humans and other apes.

Please explain a 10,000 telomere difference based on a single event, showing forensic or other EVIDENCE, not conjecture.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You seem to lack knowledge in telomeres. This should help you.

What is a telomere?

That article is well explained and in depth.

You seem to lack knowledge--along with every other secular objector on RF--as to how so many telomeres were changed so rapidly, by mechanistic evolution.

Numbers, forensics, evidence... "refuted by" evolutiondidit plus "you lack knowledge".

Be real!
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I took a quick look at that paper and I have to say, I'm a bit confused as to what your point is. The paper describes how human telomere repeats are about 10,000 base pairs smaller than telomere repeat regions in non-human primates and mice, even though all share the same fundamental telomeric repeating unit 5'-TTAGGG-3'. They also note that telomerase activity is similarly reduced in humans, relative to other primates and mice.

So perhaps you could explain why this paper is so important to you?

Human telomere repeats are ~10kbp shorter than telomere repeats in other primates and mice, therefore __________________________________?

And therefore, no one at RF accounts for 10,000 telomere differences in the rapid period of evolution between base primates and modern humans. One "mathematician" claims here this happened in 200 mutations, species-wide? ;)
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Exactly....... Shorter
LOL....so first you said that after the split "humans no longer had teomere repeats", but now that I point out that humans do have these repeats, you say "exactly"?

Nice try.

I.e. no inference of ancestry can be assumed.....
Again you need to pay better attention. This isn't about anyone inferring ancestry from telomere repeat regions. This is about @BilliardsBall trying to make some unknown point by noting that human telomere repeat regions are shorter than other primates.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
And therefore, no one at RF accounts for 10,000 telomere differences in the rapid period of evolution between base primates and modern humans.
LOL. It's obvious by now that you've not read the paper you've been citing, as it has in the introduction the "account" you're claiming doesn't exist. I suggest you go read it.

One "mathematician" claims here this happened in 200 mutations, species-wide? ;)
Who, and where?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
And therefore, no one at RF accounts for 10,000 telomere differences in the rapid period of evolution between base primates and modern humans. One "mathematician" claims here this happened in 200 mutations, species-wide? ;)
No one has made such a claim. That you have to constantly make strawman arguments does not bode well for you.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Please explain a 10,000 telomere difference based on a single event, showing forensic or other EVIDENCE, not conjecture.

Think of it like this. The telomere repeats are the result of a small program going through a loop however many times is required for the number of repeats. So, suppose I have a program that goes through a loop 50,000 times. How much needs to be changed to make it go through the loop only 40,000 times? Hint: it is likely to be only one byte, and probably only one bit.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
LOL. It's obvious by now that you've not read the paper you've been citing, as it has in the introduction the "account" you're claiming doesn't exist. I suggest you go read it.


Who, and where?

He's commenting on my estimate that around 200 mutations would be enough to explain the developmental differences between humans and other apes. Most of these mutations would be in regulators, of course.
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
I took a quick look at that paper and I have to say, I'm a bit confused as to what your point is. The paper describes how human telomere repeats are about 10,000 base pairs smaller than telomere repeat regions in non-human primates and mice, even though all share the same fundamental telomeric repeating unit 5'-TTAGGG-3'. They also note that telomerase activity is similarly reduced in humans, relative to other primates and mice.

So perhaps you could explain why this paper is so important to you?

Human telomere repeats are ~10kbp shorter than telomere repeats in other primates and mice, therefore __________________________________?
I fail to see any significance here regarding whether humans share a common ancestor with other apes. He seems to think that mutations must be single point mutations that happen individually I guess.
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
And... how do you account for the 10,000 telomere difference during rapid evolution--primates to humans?
What do you mean by 'rapid' evolution. Human evolution from a common ancestor with other apes took place over millions of years.

Humans are primates unless you have recently and radically changed our taxonomy. What evidence did you use to support this new hypothesis?
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
And... how do you account for the 10,000 telomere difference during rapid evolution--primates to humans?
Since we are already primates, much of our evolution would have taken place prior to any split with the result being that we are a different species of primate and not something that is not primate. Rapid must mean something different to you than it does to everyone else. Changes in telomere length do not contribute to changes in development or form, what are you wanting to know here? The telomere serves to protect the ends of the chromosomes. That protection can exist with shorter telomeres as well as longer ones. That some mutation event reduced ours does not mean the remainder does not fulfill its function. It certainly does not mean we did not evolve and are not most closely related to chimps.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
@BilliardsBall did you ever reply to this?

Can you explain how evolution defies chirality, thermodynamics and entropy?

Can you also explain why "macro"-evolution violates these but "micro"-evolution does not?
 

Justatruthseeker

Active Member
Huh? Why would humans have to have none just after the split? They could have had the same number, then had a mutation decreasing the number of repeats produced.
Oh sure, let’s imagine any number of possible hypothetical scenarios to maintain belief of relationship as long as we don’t have to consider them not related at all... that about sum it up????

Could have.... and could not have????
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Think of it like this. The telomere repeats are the result of a small program going through a loop however many times is required for the number of repeats. So, suppose I have a program that goes through a loop 50,000 times. How much needs to be changed to make it go through the loop only 40,000 times? Hint: it is likely to be only one byte, and probably only one bit.

No, we are not talking about a DNA connection to DNA, we are talking about deleting 10,000 lines of "programming", which in this case, is nanotech programming, aka real physical material, which further has to do with the species mortality, being telomeres, as in "survivability".

No.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
@BilliardsBall did you ever reply to this?

Can you explain how evolution defies chirality, thermodynamics and entropy?

Can you also explain why "macro"-evolution violates these but "micro"-evolution does not?

Respectfully, since you are a skeptic and I'm a believer, we're fishing in an off pond. Abiogenesis is before evolution, and the universe's origin is older than both.

How does original creation and abiogenesis defy chirality, thermodynamics and entropy?

I'm SURE you can answer this one for yourself, so you don't need to pursue me for this answer any longer.

As for macroevolution and microevolution overcoming, "evolutiondidit" is, I believe, your answer here.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
One does not need a mutation for every reduction in number of telomeres. It appears that if anything your math is off.

But I don't believe 50 telomeres times 200 mutations, in perfect array/execution, since telomeres touch on species longevity/survivability, AND NEITHER DO YOU, unless--hmm, you simply sounded off WITHOUT doing the math.
 
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