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Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We have no prophets except those whose words are recorded in the Bible. However Jesus did appoint a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his entire household their "food at the proper time". Similar to Jesus appointing Peter to "feed his sheep" in his absence. Since this "slave" is appointed by Jesus Christ, we must identify him and accept the food that he is serving. (Matthew 24:45) It is not served by any other.



God actually opposes those who think they know better than he does. Sort of a "he who laughs last" kind of thing.

It reminds me of Elijah's test of the Baal prophets when Israel was trying to incorporate Baal worship with Jehovah's worship. He asked the Israelites how long they would be limping on two different opinions? He told them that if Baal was the true god, then they should go and serve him....but if Jehovah was the true God then go and serve him. To help them decide, he put Baal and Jehovah to the test. Guess who failed to show up? (1 Kings 18:21-40)
No one was laughing at the end. :(

The Catholic Church claim they have followed the line from Peter and can prove that far in advance than the JW. Thus you should submit to that line of thought as it was on the rock Peter the church was to be built. It is when men started to quarrel, make up meaning of scripture into doctrine and break away, that the unity in Christ was lost.

The more you try to prove your point by showing others how they got it wrong, the more the points become valid to your stance.

The person that needs to be identified came with a New Name as promised. One that had the Authority from God and fulfilled those requirements.

A bunch of men calling themselves the only true interpreters of the Bible, are what the Bible warned against, the people calling out in Christs name that Christ said He does not know.

Thus as it has already been said, time is now required,

you to yours,
me to mine,
as what may be divine,
that is sorted in time.

Regards Tony
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
From the other thread....

Sorry Adrian...at the risk of going off topic again (and what topic doesn't?) I will respond here so as not to get in trouble with the OP again.....:rolleyes:



I never said we did Adrian. You forget that in our ministry, we speak to people of all faiths every day.....we call on them for the same reason that Jesus sent his disciples out....to offer them a message of hope in a seemingly hopeless world. People are so sick of the religious hypocrisy and confusion. We call to give them an opportunity to hear what we believe is the real Christian message and to make sense of this awful world we live in. They can then compare it to what they have been taught and make their own decisions. As someone who was once a part of Christendom, I can tell my own story. We are not out to convert the world.....no one can come to Jesus unless they are drawn by the Father anyway. (John 6:44) So we leave that to him. We are the messengers who can then become teachers.

Jesus called out the religious leaders of Judaism for their corrupted misapplication of scripture.....we do too.
If people don't believe us, well then as Jesus said, we are to "shake the dust off our feet" and move on. But so many people are responding to our message...its very heartening. They are not joining a religion, but learning the truth about so many things. They want to please God and therefore want to become part of his global spiritual family.



Absolutely! Everyone has the right of choice as free willed beings. But as Paul said....

Romans 10:13-15....
"For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out?..."

Who are sending out preachers into "all the inhabited earth" with the good news of God's Kingdom? (Matthew 24:14).....none of Christendom's churches have ever come to me with the good news about anything.
LDS used to call, but they do not come to my town anymore. I had some nice discussions with them.



Prayers for world peace are useless unless that peace comes about by the introduction of God's Kingdom.
Whose prayers is God listening to? (Isaiah 1:15) How much blood is on the hands of those praying?

To me "interfaith" is sharing in religious fellowship with others who do not share your beliefs....and who may very well weaken them.

According to the apostle John, those who tried to bring in ideas from outside of Christianity were to be avoided......

"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." (2 John 9-11)

No one has the truth, you are the truth. It is simply a matter of realizing this.

The "world" is not a thing to have peace. The world goes about doing what it does. Whatever goes on in the world you can call it peace or not. Calling it peace, or not doesn't actually change what goes on. Maybe doing so will make some feel temporarily better about things.

I think when a person finally realizes the truth is who they are, that is when they find peace. Then they see there is nothing to be in conflict with.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No one has the truth, you are the truth. It is simply a matter of realizing this.

The "world" is not a thing to have peace. The world goes about doing what it does. Whatever goes on in the world you can call it peace or not. Calling it peace, or not doesn't actually change what goes on. Maybe doing so will make some feel temporarily better about things.

I think when a person finally realizes the truth is who they are, that is when they find peace. Then they see there is nothing to be in conflict with.

I would consider that if all find peace within themselves, logically the world would likewise have peace.

Thus we are each the change required and thus it becomes potentially possible.

Regards Tony
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Let us consider God's directions in regards to the Ark.

Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

Genesis 6:14-16

It is not particularly detailed. I doubt if too many researchers in this area would believe that the technology to build such a massive ship existed and so would imagine many problems in regards to a vessel of this magnitude.

We don't know what the gopher wood actually is, and evidently there is just one mention of it in the bible. Pitch is the material used to water proof it.

Lets get our dimensions sorted out first.

Length - 300 cubits = 137.2 meters = 450 feet

Breadth - 50 cubits = 22.9 meters = 75 feet

Height - 30 cubits = 13.7 meters = 45 feet

If we calculated a square box with these dimension (which of course it couldn't possibly be): 1,518,750 square feet or 43,000 m3.

Here's an interesting comparison:

noahs-ark-versus-titanic.jpg


[Spoiler/]


MAGICAL COMPENDIUM OF MUSINGS AND INANITY: RMS Titanic vs. Noah's Ark

‘Noah’s Ark would have floated’

WWF: Korean Safety Paper
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
It is my experience that for many, "religion" is actually an eggshell-thin veneer that gives those people a feeling of acceptance and community, but when their beliefs are challenged to the point of causing them discomfort, the shell is discarded and they become the opposite of what their faith teaches. This is when you see "religion" start tap-dancing to justify their ungodly behavior.

Um...excuse me? Pot--kettle? It has been clearly seen on this very forum that JWs, when their beliefs are challenged or even when such beliefs are not actually challenged, but merely when certain beliefs and practices are brought out in the open, the JW "shell" is quickly discarded and personal attacks commence.



True Christians have no enemies in that people may hate us, but we do not hate anyone and we would never raise a hand to take a human life just because our government told us to. The churches of Christendom have a lot to answer for. They are seen to be "friends of the world" rather than friends of Jesus Christ. (James 4:4)

And yet, the JW organization almost seems to regret that JWs can no longer stone those they consider to be apostates to death because the government won't allow it.

We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. “Thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him to death with stones, because he hath sought to draw thee away from Jehovah thy God, . . . And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is in the midst of thee.”—Deut. 13:6-11, AS.

Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God’s law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship. However, God’s law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshiped from his congregation, and this despite the fact that the law of the land in which we live requires us under some natural obligation to live with and have dealings with such apostates under the same roof.

Questions From Readers — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

JWs really should learn not to criticize other religions unless they are willing to accept criticism of their own group when it acts and believes in a similar manner to those it rejoices in criticizing.
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
The Bible doesn't say that every "species" was on board the ark. It says "kinds" which to me indicates that a basic "kind" of animal or bird would then upon release, become different "species" of that kind in time. Since God caused the flood and gave Noah his instructions, don't you think he knew how to preserve whatever DNA needed to be preserved to start again? You don't give him credit for much, do you? You seem to have a box that God must fit into created by what? The opinions of men? I'm sure that God finds that as amusing as I do. :D

John Woodmorappe, who is a definite Flood supporter, calculated that going by the basic "kind" of animal as you suggest, would result in approximately 16,000 animals needing to be housed on the Ark. Those supposed 16,000 animals would need to be fed, watered, exercised and cleaned up after every day. Eight people trying to care for that amount of animals would have absolutely no time for anything other than animal-related chores. For that matter, allotting merely 10 minutes per pair of animals per day, would require more than 24 hours a day of work for each individual. Not very likely.



Noah did not need to gather the animals...they were brought to him by God, who obviously chose the best specimens. Two of every "unclean" animal (those unsuitable for sacrifice) and seven of every "clean" animal. Three pairs for breeding and one for sacrifice, which Noah offered as soon as the flood had subsided and they were on dry land again.

Sounds good until you consider exactly how this was supposedly accomplished. Care to give a more detailed explanation?
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
We have no prophets except those whose words are recorded in the Bible. However Jesus did appoint a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his entire household their "food at the proper time". Similar to Jesus appointing Peter to "feed his sheep" in his absence. Since this "slave" is appointed by Jesus Christ, we must identify him and accept the food that he is serving. (Matthew 24:45) It is not served by any other.

Slight correction. Jesus didn't appoint the current Governing Body as the "faithful and discreet slave". They appointed themselves, and considering the fact that the supposed "food at the proper time" is almost always shortly thereafter discarded as "old light" (sometimes it is discarded almost as soon as it comes off the presses) it doesn't seem logical to consider such "rotten food" to be anything that should be fed to "his sheep."
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The Catholic Church claim they have followed the line from Peter and can prove that far in advance than the JW. Thus you should submit to that line of thought as it was on the rock Peter the church was to be built. It is when men started to quarrel, make up meaning of scripture into doctrine and break away, that the unity in Christ was lost.

Do you consider the RCC as a continuation of what Christ taught?
It is nothing close. It became more corrupt than Judaism. There was so much blood on her hands that Jesus could never have become part of that disgusting fusion of weakened Christianity and Roman sun worship. (Isaiah 1:15; Matthew 7:21-23)

Jesus never built his church on Peter. Jesus was the rock, not Peter who never became a "Pope" or even a leader among his fellow apostles. Since all of our beliefs are those taught in original Christianity, our origins go back to Jesus and the church that he established in the first century. Did you not know that Jesus and his apostles foretold that Christianity would be corrupted by the traditions of men? It wasn't a recent event.

The prophet Daniel wrote his prophesies over 500 years before Jesus came, but his writings would not be understood until "the time of the end". (some 2,500 years in the future) It was only then that God would reveal previously concealed knowledge, and cleanse a people and refine their worship. (Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9-10) This was to be in preparation for the coming judgment. Their warning message along with the remedy for world peace, was to be the basis for God's judgment. (Matthew 24:14) We believe that "the end" is coming for this world, and nothing can stop it.

The more you try to prove your point by showing others how they got it wrong, the more the points become valid to your stance.

It's not about being right or wrong Tony. It's about people's response to the message. They will either accept it or reject it. The messengers are just that.....bearers of information that is a catalyst for decision. Jesus used the days of Noah as an example of what will happen as the last days of this world come to their close. (Matthew 24:37-39) Whether you see the story as literal or allegorical, how many believed Noah? What is the lesson?
The days of Noah are here again....and have the same cause.

The person that needs to be identified came with a New Name as promised. One that had the Authority from God and fulfilled those requirements.

Your prophet came with nothing to identify him as "Christ returned". He claimed that, but there was nothing to prove his claim. Jesus did not just claim to be from God but showed that he had God's spirit and backing. He cured the sick, healed the lame, blind and deaf....not just a few, but all who came to him were 100% cured. He fed thousands of people with just a couple of loaves of bread a a few fish. He even raised the dead. How did your prophet prove himself?

Do you understand that Jesus was a perfect man, not subject to the imperfections of every other human. He came from heaven so that he was not subject to Adam's inheritance of sin. (Hebrews 4:15) He would not have had a sinful nature, nor would he have succumbed to illness. Unless he was physically put to death, he would have lived forever without aging. Because he was without sin, he would never have succumbed to sickness or death.

Your prophet died of fever. That tells me that he was just a man, like many others of his ilk, making claims that he could never prove, originating from a religion that never had God's backing to begin with.

You can believe him if you wish, but I could never believe that he was who he claimed to be.

Jesus appointed his "faithful slave" to feed his fellow slaves their "food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45)....so we have to find "him" and accept the food he serves, out of faith. We all have the same choices. What we choose determines our future. We tell God who we are by our choices. It's really that simple.

Some might jump up and down about "who really is that slave"?....Jesus appointed him, so its not Jesus.....so who are feeding at another table or even their own self-service lane. They may well find that check-out closed some time soon.....then what? No slave? No truth.

A bunch of men calling themselves the only true interpreters of the Bible, are what the Bible warned against, the people calling out in Christs name that Christ said He does not know.

There would be "false prophets" who would also "mislead many", as Jesus said. (Matthew 24:11) So it's up to us to determine who is telling the truth and who is a puppet of the devil. You know, satan's major accomplishment is to convince people that he doesn't exist. You can't actively oppose an enemy that you don't believe exists. (James 4:7)

I don't believe that the confusion about religion is any surprise. The truth is there like a starkly identifiable beacon.....so how do you hide such a beacon? You surround it with hundreds of similar looking lights with features that appeal to all sorts of people. They will choose what appeals to them and determine their own future by those choices. This makes sense to me. It may not make sense to others.

We will all know in the not too distant future, I think.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
His point wasn't that the boat would not float. The main point is that it would have been impossible for eight humans to take of all the animals and there wouldn't be enough space for them all.
Read it again! It dealt w/ that!

Are you ok? Or just trying to be mean?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your prophet came with nothing to identify him as "Christ returned". He claimed that, but there was nothing to prove his claim. Jesus did not just claim to be from God but showed that he had God's spirit and backing. He cured the sick, healed the lame, blind and deaf....not just a few, but all who came to him were 100% cured. He fed thousands of people with just a couple of loaves of bread a a few fish. He even raised the dead

That is for you to discover. Each search for God must be done by the person, not by others.

If you read of the Person and Life of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah you will find Christ.

It is a fact that the Bab was a Lamb like Christ, their life events almost identical. Quite literally amazing in fact.

This is a PDF of this;

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://phoenixbahaicommunity.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Parallels-between-the-Lives-of-Christ-and-the-B%C3%A1b-revised.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi97P3yrYDhAhVMfH0KHWBDDzgQFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw37vEpMHLSi76B3LtXyMrTP

I would hope you choose to read it, then you would see that argument you used is not valid.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you consider the RCC as a continuation of what Christ taught?

The Baha'i Writings confirm they were the correct succession, but over time doctrine clouded the splendor of Christ. The writings confirm that most Catholics are still strong in Faith and the Love of God.

I like this about what Abdul'baha offered;

"The day after His arrival in Montreal 'Abdu'l-Bahá went for a drive, and sighting the magnificent Roman Catholic Church of Notre Dame, He went in. When He came out, standing in the porch, He turned to those who were in His company and told them to take a lesson from that very church. It was the total self-abnegation of the apostles of Christ which had raised that splendorous edifice in a land far, far from the scene of their labours. Those disciples, said 'Abdu'l-Bahá, made a pact to go out into the wide world, preach the Gospel, and accept every tribulation for the sake of their Master. They stood by their pledge, and not a single one of them ever returned..."

The JW efforts still raise places of worship in Christs name, but they are divided from all the efforts of the past. Divided we fall.

In that is a lesson to be learnt about the message given by Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The prophet Daniel wrote his prophesies over 500 years before Jesus came, but his writings would not be understood until "the time of the end". (some 2,500 years in the future) It was only then that God would reveal previously concealed knowledge, and cleanse a people and refine their worship. (Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9-10) This was to be in preparation for the coming judgment. Their warning message along with the remedy for world peace, was to be the basis for God's judgment. (Matthew 24:14) We believe that "the end" is coming for this world, and nothing can stop it.

Agreed. The Bab and Baha'u'llah are supported by those prophecies.

The starting date of BC457 of the temple rebuild can prove Jesus the Christ when we use the 69 and 70 week Prophecies. Using the same start and the 2300 year prophecy, gives us 1844.

That is as clear as it can get and at one time I know the JW used to use 1844 to support their stance.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
JW's have no problem with adaptation creating a variety of species within a "kind" as the Bible says. Species, such as those seen by Darwin did not make them different kinds of birds, or iguanas or tortoises, but simply different species within these kinds. That is adaptation, not macro-evolution. There is no evidence that adaptation can take creatures outside of their taxonomic family.

The Bible is not specific about how God repopulated the earth with his creatures. It concentrates on the humans, not the animals.



You are leaving God out of the picture again. He created all these "kinds" of creatures in the first place. Are you going to tell him he cannot fulfill his own purpose in any way he chooses? How do you know what he did or didn't do? Were any of us there?

You forget that faith does not require proof......apparently, science doesn't either when it comes to macro-evolution. We all have the same evidence, yet we interpret it very differently.

When science disagrees with scripture, must we always defer to science? It's not my first port of call. I have no difficulty trusting God's word....why do you? He has no limitations and yet you imply that he does.



You seem to want to tell me what God can and cannot do, according to what science believes....God did give us intelligence but he also requires faith. Is faith trumped by science? Does God have to comply with what humans tell us, or can we rightly rely on God to tell us the truth as he had it written? Does making sense of scripture have to mean altering its meaning to suit our own sensibilities? :shrug:

So God built an Ark and took two of every animal on board. (the Bible says that he brought seven of each clean animal and seven of each bird, although at that stage God had not yet distinguished between clean and unclean animals.) One obvious problem with this story, is there isn’t a boat big enough to fit all the animals of the world on board. How did all these animals reach Noah’s Ark? How did the kangaroos (who can’t swim) arrive? How did they survive the journey? Animals have specific diets, so if they moved location they probably would not have access to it and starve. Travelling the length of the globe is a journey few animals could make, they simply don’t have the endurance. They would have to travel through foreign climates and expose themselves to diseases and animals that they had no defence mechanism against. Having the entire animal kingdom converge on a single spot is going to cause lots of problems?

How did all the animals fit on board? Scientists have named almost 2 million species, but all agree that this is only a tiny fraction of the true amount as there could be between 5 and 30 million species. They couldn’t all fit on the boat, especially when we know how big it actually was. How were the animals stored, after all many animals eat each other and therefore would have to be kept separate? What about the vast quantities of food that would have to be stored to feed them. What about the carnivores who will only eat fresh meat? Some snakes only eat living animals. Was there a stock of live mice on board as food? What about herbivores who only eat plants, how was their food kept fresh for the entire year they were at sea? What was to prevent food from spoiling? What about cleaning up after the animals? How could less than 10 people tend to thousands of animals when zoos have staffs of hundreds to deal with smaller numbers? What about ventilation and sunlight? Thousands of animals tightly packed into a confined space is a situation rife for disease. Few animals are able to adjust to captivity even where it mimics their natural life. How could they survive in dark, cramped conditions? How were animals from incredibly cold climates stored together with animals from incredibly hot climates? If a single animal died, that entire species would go extinct. What happens if something goes wrong?

Species as a general rule can’t interbred with other species by definition. I don’t know what classification system the JWs have devised to reduce the number of animals but it’s unlikely to be one any reputable scientist agrees with. God is a God of miracles for certain but evidently God choose to speak to humanity through allegorical stories called parables when Jesus walked the earth. I’d propose God spoke allegorical stories through Moses too, the story of Noah’s Ark being an obvious example.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Each search for God must be done by the person, not by others.

We can search for God all we like, but if he is not searching for us, it is all in vain. (John 6:44)
As Paul indicated, "all must speak in agreement" (1 Corinthians 1:10) Those forcing an agreement that does not exist are fooling themselves IMO.

Jesus' illustration of the dragnet also shows that if someone proves themselves to be "unsuitable" after being "caught", then they are discarded as useless to the fisherman. (Matthew 13: 47-50) The fisherman is the best judge of what is caught in his dragnet, so we will leave that to him.

If you read of the Person and Life of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah you will find Christ.

I read it but it is just concocted nonsense to me. This is forced comparisons. I'm sure I could find similarities with Fred Bloggs if I put my mind to it.

I know that when one does a similarity test, that Moses and Jesus compare extremely well. Both were mediators of two important covenants.

To the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus said....
"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:22-24)

If the Samaritans (also related to the Jews) 'worshipped what they did not know', them what about Muslims? Salvation, Jesus said, 'originated with the Jews', which was through Isaac, not Ishmael.

It is a fact that the Bab was a Lamb like Christ, their life events almost identical. Quite literally amazing in fact.

Sorry, I did not find it amazing at all.
indifferent0005.gif


The Baha'i Writings confirm they were the correct succession, but over time doctrine clouded the splendor of Christ. The writings confirm that most Catholics are still strong in Faith and the Love of God.

Jesus has never recognized the apostate church as his own. There was no 'succession' from Peter. Jesus said that counterfeit Christianity was sown by the devil....need he have said more? The horror and bloodshed of the RCC over centuries was proof enough that they were alienated from anything taught by Jesus. They were imitating a completely different "father". (John 8:44; Matthew 7:21-23) When Jesus said he "never knew" them......"NEVER" means "NOT EVER".

As with the Pharisees, "by their fruits" we would recognize the false Christians. They will have blood on their hands, evil in their hearts and blasphemy on their lips.

The starting date of BC457 of the temple rebuild can prove Jesus the Christ when we use the 69 and 70 week Prophecies. Using the same start and the 2300 year prophecy, gives us 1844.

That is as clear as it can get and at one time I know the JW used to use 1844 to support their stance.

At Matthew 24:36-42, Jesus said....“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. . . . Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”

They were told not only to "keep on the watch" but to be prepared to watch with eagerness. Romans 8:19 says: “For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.”

Human nature is such that when we fervently hope and yearn for something and wait in eager expectation of it, a powerful temptation arises within us to see it at the door even when the evidence is insufficient. In our eagerness false alarms may be sounded.

In the 19th century, William Miller, who is generally credited with the founding of the Adventist Church, predicted that Christ would return sometime between March 1843 and March 1844. As a result, some then expected to be taken away to heaven. His calculations were based on the prophesy in Daniel, which seemed to be accurate.

But on further investigation....

"As Jesus showed in his prophecy pointing to the conclusion of the system of things, Jerusalem would be “trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations” were fulfilled. (Luke 21:24) “Jerusalem” represented the Kingdom of God because its kings were said to sit on “the throne of the kingship of Jehovah.” (1 Chron. 28:4, 5; Matt. 5:34, 35) So, the Gentile governments, represented by wild beasts, would ‘trample’ on the right of God’s Kingdom to direct human affairs and would themselves hold sway under Satan’s control.—Compare Luke 4:5, 6.

For how long would such governments be permitted to exercise this control before Jehovah gave the Kingdom to Jesus Christ? Daniel 4:16 says “seven times” (“seven years,” AT and Mo, also JB footnote on verse 13). The Bible shows that in calculating prophetic time, a day is counted as a year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34) How many “days,” then, are involved? Revelation 11:2, 3 clearly states that 42 months (3 1/2 years) in that prophecy are counted as 1,260 days. Seven years would be twice that, or 2,520 days. Applying the “day for a year” rule would result in 2,520 years.

When did the counting of the “seven times” begin? After Zedekiah, the last king in the typical Kingdom of God, was removed from the throne in Jerusalem by the Babylonians. (Ezek. 21:25-27) Finally, by early October of 607 B.C.E. the last vestige of Jewish sovereignty was gone. By that time the Jewish governor, Gedaliah, who had been left in charge by the Babylonians, had been assassinated, and the remaining Jews had fled to Egypt. (Jeremiah, chapters 40-43) Reliable Bible chronology indicates that this took place 70 years before 537 B.C.E., the year in which the Jews returned from captivity; that is, it took place by early October of 607 B.C.E. (Jer. 29:10; Dan. 9:2; for further details, see the book “Let Your Kingdom Come,” pages 186-189.)

How, then, is the time calculated down to 1914? Counting 2,520 years from early October of 607 B.C.E. brings us to early October of 1914 C.E., as shown on the chart.

CALCULATING THE “SEVEN TIMES”

“Seven times” = 7 X 360 = 2,520 years

A Biblical “time,” or year = 12 X 30 days = 360. (Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14)

In the fulfillment of the “seven times” each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34)

Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.= 1/4 year

January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. = 606 years

January 1, 1 C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years

January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year

Total: 2,520 years"


Dates — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is how we arrive at 1914 as the date when the last days of the present system of things began.
All the signs that Jesus gave to indicate that his rulership had begun "in the midst of his enemies" (Psalm 110:1-2; Matthew 24:3-14) are a matter of historical fact....beginning with the greatest war in human history up until that time.

I guess its a wait and see then......some are going to be very disappointed. :(
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So God built an Ark and took two of every animal on board. (the Bible says that he brought seven of each clean animal and seven of each bird, although at that stage God had not yet distinguished between clean and unclean animals.) One obvious problem with this story, is there isn’t a boat big enough to fit all the animals of the world on board. How did all these animals reach Noah’s Ark? How did the kangaroos (who can’t swim) arrive? How did they survive the journey? Animals have specific diets, so if they moved location they probably would not have access to it and starve. Travelling the length of the globe is a journey few animals could make, they simply don’t have the endurance. They would have to travel through foreign climates and expose themselves to diseases and animals that they had no defence mechanism against. Having the entire animal kingdom converge on a single spot is going to cause lots of problems?

How did all the animals fit on board? Scientists have named almost 2 million species, but all agree that this is only a tiny fraction of the true amount as there could be between 5 and 30 million species. They couldn’t all fit on the boat, especially when we know how big it actually was. How were the animals stored, after all many animals eat each other and therefore would have to be kept separate? What about the vast quantities of food that would have to be stored to feed them. What about the carnivores who will only eat fresh meat? Some snakes only eat living animals. Was there a stock of live mice on board as food? What about herbivores who only eat plants, how was their food kept fresh for the entire year they were at sea? What was to prevent food from spoiling? What about cleaning up after the animals? How could less than 10 people tend to thousands of animals when zoos have staffs of hundreds to deal with smaller numbers? What about ventilation and sunlight? Thousands of animals tightly packed into a confined space is a situation rife for disease. Few animals are able to adjust to captivity even where it mimics their natural life. How could they survive in dark, cramped conditions? How were animals from incredibly cold climates stored together with animals from incredibly hot climates? If a single animal died, that entire species would go extinct. What happens if something goes wrong?

Species as a general rule can’t interbred with other species by definition. I don’t know what classification system the JWs have devised to reduce the number of animals but it’s unlikely to be one any reputable scientist agrees with. God is a God of miracles for certain but evidently God choose to speak to humanity through allegorical stories called parables when Jesus walked the earth. I’d propose God spoke allegorical stories through Moses too, the story of Noah’s Ark being an obvious example.

:facepalm: Not "species" Adrian...."KINDS". Do you understand the distinction that this classification makes concerning the animals and other creatures that were brought to Noah by God for preservation? Noah did not need to find them and he has decades to plan for the storage of food for them all. It was done under God's instruction, remember?
Do you also remember that the prophet Elijah saved a widow and her son from famine by providing a source of flour and oil that never ran out? Why do you sell God short? Does he have to report every detail before you will believe? What do you think "faith" is?

You treat God as if he has the same limitations as we do......why? Is the creator constrained by what scientists have learned in only a couple of centuries?

"Whereas specific created “kinds” may number only in the hundreds, there are many more varieties of animals and plants on the earth. Modern research has indicated that hundreds of thousands of different plants are members of the same family. Similarly, in the animal kingdom, there may be many varieties of cats, all belonging to one cat family or feline “kind.” The same is true of men, of cattle, and of dogs, allowing for great diversity within each “kind.” But the fact remains that no matter how many varieties occur in each family, none of these “kinds” can commingle genetically.

Geological research provides clear evidence that the fossils held to be among the earliest specimens of a certain creature are very similar to their descendants alive today.. . . .

The Bible does not say that he had to preserve alive every variety of the animals. Rather, it states: “Of the flying creatures according to their kinds and of the domestic animals according to their kinds, of all moving animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive.” (Ge 6:20; 7:14, 15) Jehovah God knew it was necessary to save only representative members of the different “kinds,” since they would reproduce in variety after the Flood."


Kind — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Whatever God purposes, he accomplishes. (Isaiah 55:8-11) What you consider "allegorical" is because you display little faith in God's ability to do what he says he will. Unless everything is backed by science you won't believe it unless it concerns your prophet....and then you will swallow it all hook, line and sinker.....you don't see a little problem there? Where is the scientific proof that your prophet was from God? :shrug:
 
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