• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

If the Bible was first discovered in the Qumran caves near the Dead Sea...

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Who teaches you this?

Teaches what? I gave chapter and verse, and the rest can be googled.


Constantine's law of…321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that this official solar worship, the final form of paganism in the empire…, was not the traditional Roman-Greek religion of Jupiter, Apollo, Venus, and the other Olympian deities. It was a product of the mingling Hellenistic-Oriental elements, exemplified in Aurelian's establishment of Eastern Sun worship at Rome as the official religion of the empire, and in his new temple enshrining Syrian statutes statues of Bel and the sun…. Thus at last Bel, the god of Babylon, came into the official imperial temple of Rome, the center of the imperial religion. It was this late Roman-Oriental worship of one supreme god, symbolized by the sun and absorbing lesser divinities as subordinates or manifestations of the universal deity, that competed with young Christianity. This was the Roman religion that went down in defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)



On March 7, 321, Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed,[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity
 
Last edited:

sooda

Veteran Member
The Great tribulation is the period when "the son of man appears in the sky" (Matthew 24:30) & (Daniel 7:13), which has not happened. The 5th head of the beast was Julius Caesar, the 6th head of the beast, who had 10 horns, were the revived Augustus Caesars between the sacking of Jerusalem by Pompey, and Titus, who is also included. Constantine was the 7th head of the beast. We are now in the era of the 8th head of the beast. Maybe you should tell me what church believes the great tribulation has already happened, and the nations are ruled from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16), and the nations keep the Feast of Booths every year? The "beast" Caesar, who was, and is not, is the 8th, and is represented in our era by the Tzar/Caesar of Russian, the Kaiser of Germany, and his successor, Hitler, all being horns of the 8th head of the beast, who were to hate the "harlot", the Jews, and persecute, burn and make them naked (Revelation 17:16). Your educated "Jews" do not agree with your analysis, and are waiting for king David (Ezekiel 37:24), their anointed one.

Daniel was writing about history.. He wasn't born during the time of Nebuchadnezzar, He was born 300 years later.

I am trying to understand you,, Do you follow Jack Van Impe?

John of Patmos wasn't writing about Hitler or the Kaiser or New York or Obama. He was writing to 7 Jewish communities around the Mediterranean... new Christians who had been converted by Paul circa 50 AD.

You know there are modern day false prophets.. usually con artists... Like Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe, but there are many others.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Daniel was writing about history.. He wasn't born during the time of Nebuchadnezzar, He was born 300 years later.

I am trying to understand you,, Do you follow Jack Van Impe?

John of Patmos wasn't writing about Hitler or the Kaiser or New York or Obama. He was writing to 7 Jewish communities around the Mediterranean... new Christians who had been converted by Paul circa 50 AD.

You know there are modern day false prophets.. usually con artists... Like Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe, but there are many others.

Daniel was writing about when the son of man comes (Daniel 7:13-14) when all the "peoples, nations, and men of every language might serve him". When all the kingdoms/nations listed will be crushed all at the same time, which included the mentioned Persia, and Greeks (Daniel 10:13 & 20), with a note of a iron beast/Rome, who will crush all the others. It is about a stone cut without hands that will crush all those kingdoms, and set up a forever kingdom. (Daniel 2:44-45). Revelation was writing about what is about to shortly happen, which included all 7 heads of the beast, and the 8th, who was , and is not, at the time of the writing of the Book of Revelation. The final beast will be a combination of iron and clay, which is simply a combination of Rome and Edom/Muslims. The Muslims didn't originate until the 7th century. To understand, according to Daniel 12:10, you would have to turn away from sin, which would mean giving up your false prophet Paul, and actually read the bible, not take it off a google search. Revelation was written to the 7 churches of the 7 angels (Revelation 1:20), which did not include the demon spirit of the false prophet (Revelation 16:13). Paul couldn't come in person, because he is dead and buried, supposedly somewhere outside of Rome. If Christ came in 70 AD, how come Satan wasn't closed in the abyss for 1000 years? How come the devil appears alive and well, and working harder than ever to destroy the revived Jerusalem, and provoke hatred of the Jews? You have made for yourself an untenable position, based on who knows what teacher, for it didn't come out of the bible. If we are in the millennium, where is Daniel (Daniel 12:13)?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Daniel was writing about when the son of man comes (Daniel 7:13-14) when all the "peoples, nations, and men of every language might serve him". When all the kingdoms/nations listed will be crushed all at the same time, which included the mentioned Persia, and Greeks (Daniel 10:13 & 20), with a note of a iron beast/Rome, who will crush all the others. It is about a stone cut without hands that will crush all those kingdoms, and set up a forever kingdom. (Daniel 2:44-45). Revelation was writing about what is about to shortly happen, which included all 7 heads of the beast, and the 8th, who was , and is not, at the time of the writing of the Book of Revelation. The final beast will be a combination of iron and clay, which is simply a combination of Rome and Edom/Muslims.

The Muslims didn't originate until the 7th century. To understand, according to Daniel 12:10, you would have to turn away from sin, which would mean giving up your false prophet Paul, and actually read the bible, not take it off a google search. Revelation was written to the 7 churches of the 7 angels (Revelation 1:20), which did not include the demon spirit of the false prophet (Revelation 16:13). Paul couldn't come in person, because he is dead and buried, supposedly somewhere outside of Rome. If Christ came in 70 AD, how come Satan wasn't closed in the abyss for 1000 years? How come the devil appears alive and well, and working harder than ever to destroy the revived Jerusalem, and provoke hatred of the Jews?

You have made for yourself an untenable position, based on who knows what teacher, for it didn't come out of the bible. If we are in the millennium, where is Daniel (Daniel 12:13)?

Daniel is NOT considered a prophet.

Satan has been bound..

Edom was forcibly converted to Judaism

Arabs have been in Palestine since the time of Abraham .. long before Islam.. Abraham married Keturah and had six sons with her.

Revelation says it will happen soon, shortly, within a generation (40 years).. Why change what is written?

And many Palestinians are descended from Jewish farmers who didn't leave.. They stayed behind to repair the Roman terraces and aqueducts . and tend the 500 year old olive trees.
 
Last edited:

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Daniel is NOT considered a prophet.

Satan has been bound..

Edom was forcibly converted to Judaism

Arabs have been in Palestine since the time of Abraham .. long before Islam.. Abraham married Keturah and had six sons with her.

Revelation says it will happen soon, shortly, within a generation (40 years).. Why change what is written?

And many Palestinians are descended from Jewish farmers who didn't leave.. They stayed behind to repair the Roman terraces and aqueducts . and tend the 500 year old olive trees.

Hold on silver. Are you a Jew? Non Rabbinic categorization of Daniel is typically as a prophet.
The placement of Daniel by Rabbinic categorization is in the Ketuvim section of the Tanakh, such as being canonized in the Tanakh. The reasoning behind that classification is as crazy as many other things the scribes do. Apparently they don't think readers of dreams, or those who speak with the "man dressed in linen, the same guy in Ezekiel 9:11 & 10:2, who enters the chariot of God and fights with Michael in heaven (Daniel 10:13), or those who see visions (Daniel 10:7), by reason of fasting 3 weeks, are worthy to be spokesman of God, or write down the message given. The fact that what he said is true for the future, until the end of the age (Daniel 12:13), seems to go over their heads, and yours as well. They say there are 48 male prophets, but can only name 46. They seem to leave out Daniel, and the guy in linen.

As for the sons of Keturah, Abraham gave them gifts and sent them away (Genesis 25:5-6) to the east country. They did not inherit land.

Genesis 25:5-6 Abraham gave all he had to Isaac. 6 But to the sons of his concubines Abraham gave gifts, and while he was still living he sent them away from his son Isaac, eastward to the east country.

Revelation does not say it will happen within a generation. You are just making things up. For God, one day is as a 1000 years. Yeshua told the people that after 2 days, on the 3rd day (Hosea 6:2), he would raise this temple if it was knocked down(John 2:19). Well, we are now in the 3rd day. A very short time. And the temple/tabernacle of God, which is the combined stick of Ephraim and Judah, under the kingship of David, will be raised (Ezekiel 37:15-28). But first, the nations will be gathered to the valley of judgment (Joel 3:2).

John 2:19 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

And Satan is not bound, and "Israel" is not under a "covenant of peace", at this time (Ezekiel 37:26-28). I think you would find the Law and the prophets much more interesting to read than whatever fictional story you are reading.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Hold on silver. Are you a Jew? Non Rabbinic categorization of Daniel is typically as a prophet.
The placement of Daniel by Rabbinic categorization is in the Ketuvim section of the Tanakh, such as being canonized in the Tanakh. The reasoning behind that classification is as crazy as many other things the scribes do. Apparently they don't think readers of dreams, or those who speak with the "man dressed in linen, the same guy in Ezekiel 9:11 & 10:2, who enters the chariot of God and fights with Michael in heaven (Daniel 10:13), or those who see visions (Daniel 10:7), by reason of fasting 3 weeks, are worthy to be spokesman of God, or write down the message given. The fact that what he said is true for the future, until the end of the age (Daniel 12:13), seems to go over their heads, and yours as well. They say there are 48 male prophets, but can only name 46. They seem to leave out Daniel, and the guy in linen.

As for the sons of Keturah, Abraham gave them gifts and sent them away (Genesis 25:5-6) to the east country. They did not inherit land.

Genesis 25:5-6 Abraham gave all he had to Isaac. 6 But to the sons of his concubines Abraham gave gifts, and while he was still living he sent them away from his son Isaac, eastward to the east country.

Revelation does not say it will happen within a generation. You are just making things up. For God, one day is as a 1000 years. Yeshua told the people that after 2 days, on the 3rd day (Hosea 6:2), he would raise this temple if it was knocked down(John 2:19). Well, we are now in the 3rd day. A very short time. And the temple/tabernacle of God, which is the combined stick of Ephraim and Judah, under the kingship of David, will be raised (Ezekiel 37:15-28). But first, the nations will be gathered to the valley of judgment (Joel 3:2).

John 2:19 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

And Satan is not bound, and "Israel" is not under a "covenant of peace", at this time (Ezekiel 37:26-28). I think you would find the Law and the prophets much more interesting to read than whatever fictional story you are reading.

Daniel wasn't born during the Babyonian exile. He was alive in 165 BC at the time of the Maccabean revolt.

Jesus is saying that HE is the temple in that passage,

Hosea was 7th century BC.

Revelation is very clear that it will happen soon, shortly and before this generation passes. All thru scripture a generation is 40 years.. You think God was being "tricky"?

Scripture says that Keturah was Abraham's wife, not his concubine
 

sooda

Veteran Member
You apparently don't understand the scope of the Great Tribulation, which starts with Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-3), and is aimed at the nations of the whole world in the form of Har-Magedon, in which the great earthquake will cause the cities of the nations to fall (Revelation 16:19), and every "island fled away", and the "mountains were not found". (Revelation 16:20). The New Yorkers keep the revised calendar of the Pontifex Maximus Julius Caesar, honor his sun god Bel, and now honor the Pontifex Maximus, pope Gregory, and elected Caesar's successor, our dearest friend Obama, a horn of the 8th head of the beast (Revelation 17:11), who actually hates the "harlot", that being the Jews (Revelation 17:16), and gave 150 billion dollars in different currencies, to Iran, in order for Iran to try and crush Israel, in due time. The Jews of New York can't support the "beast", and his policies, and think they can walk away. "Just judgment" is following them (Jeremiah 30:11). The nations are looking at a harsher sentence. Keep in mind, it was not the dead people who killed the prophet that are now being held accountable, it is the Pharisees and scribes. Read more carefully. (Matthew 23-35). "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees...you blind guides...hypocrites... upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous". It is customary for the "destroyers" to start with the elders in front of the temple" (Ezekiel 9:6) You will probably find many temples in New York City, where almost 1.1 million Jews live. This last world event would be considered "Jacob's troubles", of which there will be survivors (Jeremiah 30:7), for the LORD says, "I will not destroy you completely". It is the all the "nations" where I have scattered you, "who I will destroy completely"

Where does it say all nations of the world?

There was only one tribulation and it was local. Before the birth of Christ Jews were living in Alexandria, Persia, Damascus, Aleppo, Rome and Elephantine Island... and all around Anatolia.

Obama and New York have NOTHING to do with the beast or the harlot. Gog and Magog invaded 600 years before Christ.

Obama didn't give anything to Iran.. He returned their money to them that had been frozen since 1979.

Where did you come up with all this stuff? Is it Jehovahs Witness or Jack Van Impe? I have never heard such crackpot claims.. and I thought I'd heard some wild ones.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Well, I really have doubts about their supposed perception as I worked with priests for many years, and as I worked with converts coming into the Church for 14 years. I also represented my church at some regional functions whereas I attended frequent conferences with them.

That's nonsense as the Gospel that's found in the Catholic Bible is the same as found in a Protestant Bible.

Love, which is "agape" in Koine Greek, is an active noun that has no real parallel in English. IOW, one doesn't just have love-- one lives out of love. This is why Jesus, Paul, and James all say that one must do what Jesus' taught, and this is what the Church teaches.

Yes, agape is action, not emotion--however, the Bible says God so agaped the world that WHOEVER TRUSTS HIM WILL NEVER PERISH.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
1. I thought there was supposed to be one writer of Scripture, and he wrote Deuteronomy 5:33:

Deuteronomy 5:33 Walk in obedience to all that the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess

2. As for the word of lawlessness, the tare seed, being planted in the same field/book/NT, as the "good seed", the "word of the kingdom", that is fulfillment of Matthew 13:25.

3. The main writers of the NT are the false prophet Paul, and his associates. The editor of the NT would be a "daughter of Babylon", the Roman church, which church was instituted by the "beast with two horns like a lamb", the Roman emperor Constantine.

4. If your sins were forgiven, you would have no need for a physician, for you would know a righteous man who could pray to have your sins forgiven (James 5:15-16). As it is, you will continue to have worse things happen to you, and you will die, despite what your false prophet Paul may have told you (1 Corinthians 15:51). Paul was not changed from perishable to imperishable, and is dead and buried supposedly somewhere outside of Rome. You will die also (Jeremiah 31:30).

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-

I agree with Deut: walk right, live long and prosper IN THIS WORLD/LIFE. Yes, the 5th command of Exodus 20 has a similar promise for obedient children.

The tares are nonbelievers, there are plenty of them where I witness, outside church buildings.

What is your evidence that Paul was a false prophet, since:

* He was accepted by the apostles at their councils
* He was sent to the Gentiles with Barnabas and other trusted brothers
* He was accompanied by the writer of Luke/Acts for years
* His doctrine is all Jesus/OT doctrine

I'd like proof, please, since Peter calls him a dear brother, whose doctrine gets confused by unstable minds.

My sins are forgiven--I'm not ready for Heaven now, as you wrote, and will die, but will be changed, per 1 Cor--partaking of the divine nature at the Rapture, yes!
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Hey, my family is Catholic, and I went to a parochial school in the 1950s. They have little respect for the church leadership, but they have too much invested to pull out. They face Paul's catch 22. Go to hell if you don't believe in the teachings of the church of Peter and Paul. They don't seem to realize, that having the mark of the beast carries having to drink from the cup of the wrath of God (Revelation 14:10). I am not so graphic with them. I just let them know that Paul is the false prophet, their church is going to "fall" (Isaiah 22:25) & (Matthew 7:24-27), and let the cards fall were they may. I did give my nephew a full bible when he had his confirmation. The "good seed" is contained in the NT, you just have to remove the "tare seed".(Matthew 13:30), or wait for the angels to remove the tares (Matthew 13:39-42).
You didn't answer my question, which begs the question why is that?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
however, the Bible says God so agaped the world that WHOEVER TRUSTS HIM WILL NEVER PERISH.
And if one truly "trusts him", they will do what he says per the Sermon On the Mount and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats. That's the "narrow gate", BB, whereas your position is more the "wide gate" of just sitting in a rocking chair and having some nice thoughts. You've stripped away what Jesus' taught on what we are to do, which is contrary to what the Gospel actually says.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
And if one truly "trusts him", they will do what he says per the Sermon On the Mount and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats. That's the "narrow gate", BB, whereas your position is more the "wide gate" of just sitting in a rocking chair and having some nice thoughts. You've stripped away what Jesus' taught on what we are to do, which is contrary to what the Gospel actually says.

Actually, those are not the "narrow gate". Those are how you walk the narrow path. And your Roman church has attempted to change the law and the times, with regard to the "narrow gate", leaving you apparently somewhat confused. (Daniel 7:25)
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
You didn't answer my question, which begs the question why is that?

Maybe because proper "religion" is visiting widows and orphans and keeping oneself unstained by the world (James 1:27), and there is no designation for that undefiled religion. The religions on the world's list of religions, are all tainted by the "abominations of the earth" (Revelation 17:5). The foremost, being the Roman church with its confused Babylonian doctrines and dogmas. Even the pope confessed at burning people alive, and torturing poor Galileo, and that was the tip of the ice berg. As the scribes and the Pharisees were held responsible for the persecution of the LORD's messengers (Matthew 23:25 &35), so will those who support the church that burns people such as Joan of Ark, alive, which is another tip of the ice berg. They continue to support the church when shown the church suppressed evidence of child abuse, banking fraud, and owning high end property the size of Alberta, Canada, and yet rag their poor sheep, into giving up more of their flesh (Ezekiel 34:3), for which they will be "judged" (Ezekiel 34:17).
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Actually, those are not the "narrow gate". Those are how you walk the narrow path. And your Roman church has attempted to change the law and the times, with regard to the "narrow gate", leaving you apparently somewhat confused. (Daniel 7:25)

Daniel 7 is about ancient Babylon and the author of Daniel is relating history.

"In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon '......
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I agree with Deut: walk right, live long and prosper IN THIS WORLD/LIFE. Yes, the 5th command of Exodus 20 has a similar promise for obedient children.

The tares are nonbelievers, there are plenty of them where I witness, outside church buildings.

What is your evidence that Paul was a false prophet, since:

* He was accepted by the apostles at their councils
* He was sent to the Gentiles with Barnabas and other trusted brothers
* He was accompanied by the writer of Luke/Acts for years
* His doctrine is all Jesus/OT doctrine

I'd like proof, please, since Peter calls him a dear brother, whose doctrine gets confused by unstable minds.

My sins are forgiven--I'm not ready for Heaven now, as you wrote, and will die, but will be changed, per 1 Cor--partaking of the divine nature at the Rapture, yes!

"Every one will die for his own iniquity" (Jeremiah 31:30). That means you will die, and if someone says otherwise, such as the "serpent" in Genesis 3:4, who says "you surely shall not die", is lying. As for what happens when you are in the grave, well, those with the mark of the beast (Revelation 20:4), will remain in the grave for another 1000 years. Constantine's church, the "Christian" church, the church of Peter and Paul are so marked. Hopefully you are buried in a moderate climate, so your body doesn't have to suffer the constant action of freeze thaw, so that you can come to the white throne judgment if fairly decent condition. (Revelation 20:12-15) Keep in mind, that those that worshipped the "beast" were not written in the "book of life" (Revelation 13:8). Do you know what that means?

As for Peter, he was the partner "shepherd"/"staff", who with Paul, was to "pasture" the "flock doomed for slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7), and Peter was defined as the "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:16-17), who would not feed, care, or tend the sheep, but who would "leave the flock", such as was defined by the assumed associate of the false prophet Paul, the writer of Luke and Acts, who witnessed nothing per Luke 1:1-3, and whose assumed source was often the false prophet Paul. Self promotion is disallowed by Yeshua in John 5:31, and makes it "not true". And actually, no one knows who wrote Luke, Acts, or Hebrews. As for the supposed account of Luke with respect to Paul given a message to deliver, of not eating things sacrificed to idols, eating blood, or fornicating, I think it must have been a bad weather day, and he left that message in his garage. Paul taught that with his high level of faith, he could eat what ever he felt like eating. As for the apostles, who never mentioned their meeting with your Paul, they were under the constraint of leaving the tares alone, and to not disturb them (Matthew 13:27-29).
 

sooda

Veteran Member
"Every one will die for his own iniquity" (Jeremiah 31:30). That means you will die, and if someone says otherwise, such as the "serpent" in Genesis 3:4, who says "you surely shall not die", is lying. As for what happens when you are in the grave, well, those with the mark of the beast (Revelation 20:4), will remain in the grave for another 1000 years. Constantine's church, the "Christian" church, the church of Peter and Paul are so marked. Hopefully you are buried in a moderate climate, so your body doesn't have to suffer the constant action of freeze thaw, so that you can come to the white throne judgment if fairly decent condition. (Revelation 20:12-15) Keep in mind, that those that worshipped the "beast" were not written in the "book of life" (Revelation 13:8). Do you know what that means?

As for Peter, he was the partner "shepherd"/"staff", who with Paul, was to "pasture" the "flock doomed for slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7), and Peter was defined as the "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:16-17), who would not feed, care, or tend the sheep, but who would "leave the flock", such as was defined by the assumed associate of the false prophet Paul, the writer of Luke and Acts, who witnessed nothing per Luke 1:1-3, and whose assumed source was often the false prophet Paul. Self promotion is disallowed by Yeshua in John 5:31, and makes it "not true". And actually, no one knows who wrote Luke, Acts, or Hebrews. As for the supposed account of Luke with respect to Paul given a message to deliver, of not eating things sacrificed to idols, eating blood, or fornicating, I think it must have been a bad weather day, and he left that message in his garage. Paul taught that with his high level of faith, he could eat what ever he felt like eating. As for the apostles, who never mentioned their meeting with your Paul, they were under the constraint of leaving the tares alone, and to not disturb them (Matthew 13:27-29).

Come now.. Nobody worships Caesar the beast..

Did you say you were Jehovah's Witness?
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Daniel 7 is about ancient Babylon and the author of Daniel is relating history.

"In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon '......

Gee man e, you are so far out in left field. Daniel listed all the kingdoms starting with Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 2:31-32). When the vision occurs does not constrain the vision. And according to my bible, it was the "third year of the reign of Belshazzar" that Daniel had the vision of Daniel 7. You might want to take the time and read the whole book to keep things in context. Read Daniel 2:40, and tell me who that depicts. And then read Daniel 7:7, and tell me who that depicts?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Gee man e, you are so far out in left field. Daniel listed all the kingdoms starting with Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 2:31-32). When the vision occurs does not constrain the vision. And according to my bible, it was the "third year of the reign of Belshazzar" that Daniel had the vision of Daniel 7. You might want to take the time and read the whole book to keep things in context. Read Daniel 2:40, and tell me who that depicts. And then read Daniel 7:7, and tell me who that depicts?

Daniel wasn't born yet.. He was NEVER in Babylon.
 
Top