If the Bible was first discovered in the Qumran caves near the Dead Sea...

metis · Mar 11, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
...that is to say, works are important for salvation. Biblically speaking, they are not,

Then you disagree with Jesus in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats and also Paul when he talks about the necessity of being more than just "cymbals clashing".

BilliardsBall said:
and when a Roman Catholic goes to their priest to say the Bible they read tells them so, the priest eventually/invariably says, "You are reading the Bible too much/God put me here to interpret it FOR you," something you haven't yet heard from a priest because you follow their gospel of Roman works.

Why do you continue to invent or parrot this nonsense? Is this what your church actually teaches you or do you just like inventing things?

As I've been attending Catholic masses pretty much regularly and in different areas of the U.S. and Canada, never-- let me repeat never-- have I ever heard that being said personally or in sermons.

And because of this, it seems that the biggest problem is that your church isn't teaching even the most basic morals by their "bearing false witness" that is so easy look up and see as being out-and-out lies.

Again, please look these kind of things up first before posting these lies.

2ndpillar · Mar 11, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
While Rome still has indulgences, have you read official doctrinal imprimatur materials? I have, and Rome's gospel is opposed to Paul's gospel, Paul's gospel being the SAME as the other 11 NT writers.

Thanks.

I think James specifically targeted Paul's gospel of grace, which is basically faith in Paul testimony alone (James 2:18), whereas Yeshua's testimony, as told by Matthew, is antithetical to the false gospel of grace, and requires good fruit, or one is to be cut down and thrown into the fire. As for the Roman church, built on the false presumption that Peter is the rock the church is built on, that little "stumbling block" (Matthew 16:23), is timed to be removed/"fall", at the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:39-42), or in the case of Isaiah 22:22-25, "in that day", which would be the "awesome day of the LORD", at which time, the holder of the key of the house of David, who "opens and no one can shut", will "fall", and all hanging on him, will be "cut off".

BilliardsBall · Mar 12, 2019

metis said:
Then you disagree with Jesus in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats and also Paul when he talks about the necessity of being more than just "cymbals clashing".

Why do you continue to invent or parrot this nonsense? Is this what your church actually teaches you or do you just like inventing things?

As I've been attending Catholic masses pretty much regularly and in different areas of the U.S. and Canada, never-- let me repeat never-- have I ever heard that being said personally or in sermons.

And because of this, it seems that the biggest problem is that your church isn't teaching even the most basic morals by their "bearing false witness" that is so easy look up and see as being out-and-out lies.

Again, please look these kind of things up first before posting these lies.

1) READ what I write--I never said "in homilies and sermons", I said, "When one meets with a priest," and I've advised a number of Roman Catholic friends and this is what they experienced." Understand that what Rome does in public and what it does in private is different--you've never pressed a priest that he has the wrong gospel--but the verses that lead the most priests to trust Jesus? The 8 woes of Matthew 23--refuting private filth against public glamour.

2) Paul talks about love--Jesus gives unconditional love through the cross. Jesus talks about doing the right thing--this does not contradict what the cross was for. There is no contradiction here--except where you keep saying "there's more to the gospel" and also "we believe Jesus saves, not our works". Which is your final, bottom line?

BilliardsBall · Mar 12, 2019

2ndpillar said:
I think James specifically targeted Paul's gospel of grace, which is basically faith in Paul testimony alone (James 2:18), whereas Yeshua's testimony, as told by Matthew, is antithetical to the false gospel of grace, and requires good fruit, or one is to be cut down and thrown into the fire. As for the Roman church, built on the false presumption that Peter is the rock the church is built on, that little "stumbling block" (Matthew 16:23), is timed to be removed/"fall", at the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:39-42), or in the case of Isaiah 22:22-25, "in that day", which would be the "awesome day of the LORD", at which time, the holder of the key of the house of David, who "opens and no one can shut", will "fall", and all hanging on him, will be "cut off".

1) The 12 Bible writers have the same gospel as the OT--"Trust God for salvation."

2) There's something foolish about thinking Paul is different than Yeshua in his gospel, since they are the same NT.

3) I've pointed out how two of the gospel writers wrote NT doctrine books, that disagree with your "gospel" of works.

4) Probably the clearest doctrine in the Bible is this--salvation is not of works (nor "good fruit", good attitudes, good lifestyle, etc.). My Lord and Savior died a horrible death for ALL my sin, all my works. If you are a brother, you will have sound doctrine, now or later.

metis · Mar 12, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
I said, "When one meets with a priest," and I've advised a number of Roman Catholic friends and this is what they experienced."

Well, I really have doubts about their supposed perception as I worked with priests for many years, and as I worked with converts coming into the Church for 14 years. I also represented my church at some regional functions whereas I attended frequent conferences with them.

BilliardsBall said:
you've never pressed a priest that he has the wrong gospel

That's nonsense as the Gospel that's found in the Catholic Bible is the same as found in a Protestant Bible.

BilliardsBall said:
2) Paul talks about love--Jesus gives unconditional love through the cross. Jesus talks about doing the right thing--this does not contradict what the cross was for

Love, which is "agape" in Koine Greek, is an active noun that has no real parallel in English. IOW, one doesn't just have love-- one lives out of love. This is why Jesus, Paul, and James all say that one must do what Jesus' taught, and this is what the Church teaches.

2ndpillar · Mar 12, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
1) The 12 Bible writers have the same gospel as the OT--"Trust God for salvation."

2) There's something foolish about thinking Paul is different than Yeshua in his gospel, since they are the same NT.

3) I've pointed out how two of the gospel writers wrote NT doctrine books, that disagree with your "gospel" of works.

4) Probably the clearest doctrine in the Bible is this--salvation is not of works (nor "good fruit", good attitudes, good lifestyle, etc.). My Lord and Savior died a horrible death for ALL my sin, all my works. If you are a brother, you will have sound doctrine, now or later.

1. I thought there was supposed to be one writer of Scripture, and he wrote Deuteronomy 5:33:

Deuteronomy 5:33 Walk in obedience to all that the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess

2. As for the word of lawlessness, the tare seed, being planted in the same field/book/NT, as the "good seed", the "word of the kingdom", that is fulfillment of Matthew 13:25.

3. The main writers of the NT are the false prophet Paul, and his associates. The editor of the NT would be a "daughter of Babylon", the Roman church, which church was instituted by the "beast with two horns like a lamb", the Roman emperor Constantine.

4. If your sins were forgiven, you would have no need for a physician, for you would know a righteous man who could pray to have your sins forgiven (James 5:15-16). As it is, you will continue to have worse things happen to you, and you will die, despite what your false prophet Paul may have told you (1 Corinthians 15:51). Paul was not changed from perishable to imperishable, and is dead and buried supposedly somewhere outside of Rome. You will die also (Jeremiah 31:30).

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-

2ndpillar · Mar 12, 2019

metis said:
Love, which is "agape" in Koine Greek, is an active noun that has no real parallel in English. IOW, one doesn't just have love-- one lives out of love. This is why Jesus, Paul, and James all say that one must do what Jesus' taught, and this is what the Church teaches.

What Yeshua preached, was to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. Apparently, both the Catholic and Protestant church skipped that verse. And the living out the love, with respect to priests, and their leaders, seems to have gone off the rails.

metis · Mar 12, 2019

2ndpillar said:
What Yeshua preached, was to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. Apparently, both the Catholic and Protestant church skipped that verse. And the living out the love, with respect to priests, and their leaders, seems to have gone off the rails.

And I supposed you are pretty much the exception to the rule, right? Sorry, but I don't buy into stereotyping.

BTW, do you belong to any particular denomination, as I believe I've asked you that before but never got a response?

sooda · Mar 12, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
The Dead Sea Scrolls are older than prior extant scrolls. They verified that despite what Rome did to suppress general knowledge of the scriptures, that the scriptures are the Word of the living God.

What? What did the Catholics suppress?

The Guttenberg Bible was printed and published in 1454 or 1455 long before the Reformation so what are you talking about?

The living God wouldn't have made so many errors, contradictions, anachronisms and errors of geography.

sooda · Mar 12, 2019

2ndpillar said:
What Yeshua preached, was to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. Apparently, both the Catholic and Protestant church skipped that verse. And the living out the love, with respect to priests, and their leaders, seems to have gone off the rails.

No.. they were just smart enough to know Jesus wasn't condemning ALL Pharisees..

lukethethird · Mar 12, 2019

Augustus said:
I'm pointing out that no one "first discovered" the Bible in the Middle Ages as the books had already been "discovered" (i.e. written).

The Bible underwent an organic process of evolution based on what was used by particular churches. Over time these became traditions.

How did some texts become canonical and others not?

Many books, such as the Gospels, were widely agreed to be authentic from the 1st-2nd C

Other texts were widely considered to be apocryphal and not included

Some were disputed, and may still be to this day, reflecting the different Bibles that exist between Catholic, Protestant, Ethiopic, etc Churches

Much of the Bible has been accepted since the days of early Christianity regardless of when any 'official' canonisation took place. The Catholic Church, as with others, chose the books it viewed as most authentic.

They probably widely agreed to choose what was more useful for their theo/political agenda than anything else.

2ndpillar · Mar 12, 2019

sooda said:
No.. they were just smart enough to know Jesus wasn't condemning ALL Pharisees..

But he was condemning all Pharisees, because they followed the scribes which made a lie out of the law. (Jeremiah 8:8). That is why a new judge would come to town (Ezekiel 34:20) who would judge with a righteous judgement. That being, it wouldn't be a Progressive judgement, which judges in favor of the poor, but a righteous judgment, with equality under the law (Leviticus 19:15). The Commandments of God are not "burdensome" (1 John 5:3), but the keeping the laws of the scribes, is not possible for the scribes. If you notice, they were soon conquered and thrown out of Jerusalem. According to Zechariah 14:1-3, they will flee Jerusalem again, and the cities of the nations will fall, which would include New York (Revelation 16:19). Someone had best take heed and keep the Commandments so that they might live on the and given to them (Deuteronomy 5:32-33).

New American Standard Bible Leviticus 19:15
'You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.

sooda · Mar 12, 2019

2ndpillar said:
But he was condemning all Pharisees, because they followed the scribes which made a lie out of the law. (Jeremiah 8:8). That is why a new judge would come to town (Ezekiel 34:20) who would judge with a righteous judgement. That being, it wouldn't be a Progressive judgement, which judges in favor of the poor, but a righteous judgment, with equality under the law (Leviticus 19:15). The Commandments of God are not "burdensome" (1 John 5:3), but the keeping the laws of the scribes, is not possible for the scribes. If you notice, they were soon conquered and thrown out of Jerusalem. According to Zechariah 14:1-3, they will flee Jerusalem again, and the cities of the nations will fall, which would include New York (Revelation 16:19). Someone had best take heed and keep the Commandments so that they might live on the and given to them (Deuteronomy 5:32-33).

New American Standard Bible Leviticus 19:15
'You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.

New York didn't slay the prophets and the saints nor did New Yorkers worship Caesar. Somebody has really lied to you.

In ancient times the Scribes were Jewish officers who performed duties which included various kinds of writing, but when the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity, the soferim, or Scribes, were organized by Ezra into a distinct body. These Scribes became the interpreters and copyists of God's law. Among these duties, they copied the Pentateuch, the Phylacteries, and the Mezuzoth. (Deut. 6:9).

Once the Canon of Old Testament Scripture was complete, and inspiration of the prophetic period in Old Testament times had been accomplished, we need to trace the degeneration of these men known as "Scribes" and the position of power by which they assumed.

History reveals that foreign influences pervaded the land of Judea throughout the Inter-Testamental period, and onward to the Christian era. Greek culture and Hellenization threatened the very existence of Judaism and the chosen people, the Jewish religious leaders determined that the law needed to be preserved with the most jealous care.

continued
https://www.bible-history.com/Scribes/THE_SCRIBESBackground.htm

2ndpillar · Mar 12, 2019

metis said:
And I supposed you are pretty much the exception to the rule, right? Sorry, but I don't buy into stereotyping.

BTW, do you belong to any particular denomination, as I believe I've asked you that before but never got a response?

Hey, my family is Catholic, and I went to a parochial school in the 1950s. They have little respect for the church leadership, but they have too much invested to pull out. They face Paul's catch 22. Go to hell if you don't believe in the teachings of the church of Peter and Paul. They don't seem to realize, that having the mark of the beast carries having to drink from the cup of the wrath of God (Revelation 14:10). I am not so graphic with them. I just let them know that Paul is the false prophet, their church is going to "fall" (Isaiah 22:25) & (Matthew 7:24-27), and let the cards fall were they may. I did give my nephew a full bible when he had his confirmation. The "good seed" is contained in the NT, you just have to remove the "tare seed".(Matthew 13:30), or wait for the angels to remove the tares (Matthew 13:39-42).

sooda · Mar 12, 2019

2ndpillar said:
Hey, my family is Catholic, and I went to a parochial school in the 1950s. They have little respect for the church leadership, but they have too much invested to pull out. They face Paul's catch 22. Go to hell if you don't believe in the teachings of the church of Peter and Paul. They don't seem to realize, that having the mark of the beast carries having to drink from the cup of the wrath of God (Revelation 14:10). I am not so graphic with them. I just let them know that Paul is the false prophet, their church is going to "fall" (Isaiah 22:25) & (Matthew 7:24-27), and let the cards fall were they may. I did give my nephew a full bible when he had his confirmation. The "good seed" is contained in the NT, you just have to remove the "tare seed".(Matthew 13:30), or wait for the angels to remove the tares (Matthew 13:39-42).

The mark of the beast is the head of Caesar engraved on Roman coins. The Jews hated it.. graven image and all that, but they couldn't buy and sell without it and unless they worshipped Caesar and sacrificed to him on his birthday.

What are you teaching??

2ndpillar · Mar 12, 2019

sooda said:
New York didn't slay the prophets and the saints nor did New Yorkers worship Caesar. Somebody has really lied to you.

You apparently don't understand the scope of the Great Tribulation, which starts with Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-3), and is aimed at the nations of the whole world in the form of Har-Magedon, in which the great earthquake will cause the cities of the nations to fall (Revelation 16:19), and every "island fled away", and the "mountains were not found". (Revelation 16:20). The New Yorkers keep the revised calendar of the Pontifex Maximus Julius Caesar, honor his sun god Bel, and now honor the Pontifex Maximus, pope Gregory, and elected Caesar's successor, our dearest friend Obama, a horn of the 8th head of the beast (Revelation 17:11), who actually hates the "harlot", that being the Jews (Revelation 17:16), and gave 150 billion dollars in different currencies, to Iran, in order for Iran to try and crush Israel, in due time. The Jews of New York can't support the "beast", and his policies, and think they can walk away. "Just judgment" is following them (Jeremiah 30:11). The nations are looking at a harsher sentence. Keep in mind, it was not the dead people who killed the prophet that are now being held accountable, it is the Pharisees and scribes. Read more carefully. (Matthew 23-35). "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees...you blind guides...hypocrites... upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous". It is customary for the "destroyers" to start with the elders in front of the temple" (Ezekiel 9:6) You will probably find many temples in New York City, where almost 1.1 million Jews live. This last world event would be considered "Jacob's troubles", of which there will be survivors (Jeremiah 30:7), for the LORD says, "I will not destroy you completely". It is the all the "nations" where I have scattered you, "who I will destroy completely"

sooda · Mar 12, 2019

2ndpillar said:
You apparently don't understand the scope of the Great Tribulation, which starts with Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-3), and is aimed at the nations of the whole world in the form of Har-Magedon, in which the great earthquake will cause the cities of the nations to fall (Revelation 16:19), and every "island fled away", and the "mountains were not found". (Revelation 16:20). The New Yorkers keep the revised calendar of the Pontifex Maximus Julius Caesar, honor his sun god Bel, and now honor the Pontifex Maximus, pope Gregory, and elected Caesar's successor, our dearest friend Obama, a horn of the 8th head of the beast (Revelation 17:11), who actually hates the "harlot", that being the Jews (Revelation 17:16), and gave 150 billion dollars in different currencies, to Iran, in order for Iran to try and crush Israel, in due time. The Jews of New York can't support the "beast", and his policies, and think they can walk away. "Just judgment" is following them (Jeremiah 30:11). The nations are looking at a harsher sentence. Keep in mind, it was not the dead people who killed the prophet that are now being held accountable, it is the Pharisees and scribes. Read more carefully. (Matthew 23-35). "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees...you blind guides...hypocrites... upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous". It is customary for the "destroyers" to start with the elders in front of the temple" (Ezekiel 9:6) You will probably find many temples in New York City, where almost 1.1 million Jews live. This last world event would be considered "Jacob's troubles", of which there will be survivors (Jeremiah 30:7), for the LORD says, "I will not destroy you completely". It is the all the "nations" where I have scattered you, "who I will destroy completely"

The tribulation was over in 70 AD.. Which false prophet are you following?

The beast is Caesar....

The Sanhedrin accused Jesus..

2ndpillar · Mar 12, 2019

sooda said:
The mark of the beast is the head of Caesar engraved on Roman coins. The Jews hated it.. graven image and all that, but they couldn't buy and sell without it and unless they worshipped Caesar and sacrificed to him on his birthday.

What are you teaching??

You might want to read Revelation 13 & 20 before you try teaching it. The "another" "beast" with the same "authority" (Revelation 13:11-12) of the beast who was slain, Julius Caesar (Revelation 13:3-8), was the Roman emperor Constantine, the 7th head of the beast. Constantine's 313 AD coin had his image together with the image of his god, the "dragon", Sol Invictus. Caesar didn't "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14), that was Constantine, by way of his Roman church, and the number of his name is the original 616, and not 666. He endeavored to change the law and the times (Daniel 7:25) via his decree, whereas no one could buy or sell on the day of his god, the sun god Sol Invictus, which was the day of the sun, for it would be a day of rest, and all shops and government offices would be closed. That today is known as the blue laws, the law of the 7th head of the beast, a law you probably religiously keep. The "beast" of Revelation 13:3 and the "beast with two horns like a lamb" (Revelation 13:11), are two different beasts.

sooda · Mar 12, 2019

2ndpillar said:
You might want to read Revelation 13 & 20 before you try teaching it. The "another" "beast" with the same "authority" (Revelation 13:11-12) of the beast who was slain, Julius Caesar (Revelation 13:3-8), was the Roman emperor Constantine, the 7th head of the beast. Constantine's 313 AD coin had his image together with the image of his god, the "dragon", Sol Invictus. Caesar didn't "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14), that was Constantine, by way of his Roman church, and the number of his name is the original 616, and not 666. He endeavored to change the law and the times (Daniel 7:25) via his decree, whereas no one could buy or sell on the day of his god, the sun god Sol Invictus, which was the day of the sun, for it would be a day of rest, and all shops and government offices would be closed. That today is known as the blue laws, the law of the 7th head of the beast, a law you probably religiously keep. The "beast" of Revelation 13:3 and the "beast with two horns like a lamb" (Revelation 13:11), are two different beasts.

Who teaches you this?

2ndpillar · Mar 12, 2019

sooda said:
The tribulation was over in 70 AD.. Which false prophet are you following?

The beast is Caesar....

The Sanhedrin accused Jesus..

The Great tribulation is the period when "the son of man appears in the sky" (Matthew 24:30) & (Daniel 7:13), which has not happened. The 5th head of the beast was Julius Caesar, the 6th head of the beast, who had 10 horns, were the revived Augustus Caesars between the sacking of Jerusalem by Pompey, and Titus, who is also included. Constantine was the 7th head of the beast. We are now in the era of the 8th head of the beast. Maybe you should tell me what church believes the great tribulation has already happened, and the nations are ruled from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16), and the nations keep the Feast of Booths every year? The "beast" Caesar, who was, and is not, is the 8th, and is represented in our era by the Tzar/Caesar of Russian, the Kaiser of Germany, and his successor, Hitler, all being horns of the 8th head of the beast, who were to hate the "harlot", the Jews, and persecute, burn and make them naked (Revelation 17:16). Your educated "Jews" do not agree with your analysis, and are waiting for king David (Ezekiel 37:24), their anointed one.

If the Bible was first discovered in the Qumran caves near the Dead Sea...

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