Trinitarians, please help me.

Disciple of Jesus said:

In other words, I personally don't get my theology from the greek bible, in the first place. Yuekk yuekk

'Its all greek to me...'

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Well, as least we both concur that God is a title and not a name. The title was given to angels and men alike. It doesn't make them God but rather a representative of God.

Darby Bible Translation (Exodus 7:1)
And Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

shmogie said:

Yes, you apparently accept the oneness doctrine. Re the breath, I was responding to a statement that the Spirit was the breath of God.

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Understood. This concept comes from the Hebrew and Greek words translated as Spirit in English. These words Ruach in Hebrew and Pneuma in Greek can be translated as Wind or Breath.

shmogie said:

If Christ's father was in heaven, while Christ was on earth, it appears that there is not a single being.

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That would mean God is not omnipresent. Even trinity believers believe God is a single being but with 3 distinct(not separate) persons.

shmogie said:

If Christ did not know the time of his return, but His father did, was He keeping secrets from Himself ?

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Jesus in the flesh did not know. But as a trinitarian do you really think that God does not know something? you can't limit God. So I believe that Jesus does know as God. But limited His knowledge in human form.

After the resurrection Jesus said all power was given to Him. That in my opinion would include all knowledge. When the disciples repeated their inquiries about the time of His return in Acts chapter 1, it should be noted that Jesus no longer says He does not know. But simply tells them it's not for them to know ...

shmogie said:

If no one has seen the Father, but thousands saw Jesus, there is a Biblical error.

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Jesus in the flesh is the express image of God. It's not the unveiled God. Jesus called His body the temple of God. The flesh is created (Hebrews 10:5). The fullness of the Divine nature was indwelling Him bodily. (Colossians 2:8-9)

shmogie said:

I could go on but you get the idea.

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many problems however disappear when you consider the "hypostatic union" which is just the idea that Jesus was fully human and yet fully God in one. Basically it deals with the duality of Christ's nature. Trinitarians also believe in the same thing.

Maximilian said:

Where is this explicitly taught in the Holy Scriptures?

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There is one God, there are three individual entities in that one God. Each entity is consciously aware and functions individually within that one

74x12 said:

Understood. This concept comes from the Hebrew and Greek words translated as Spirit in English. These words Ruach in Hebrew and Pneuma in Greek can be translated as Wind or Breath.

That would mean God is not omnipresent. Even trinity believers believe God is a single being but with 3 distinct(not separate) persons.

Jesus in the flesh did not know. But as a trinitarian do you really think that God does not know something? you can't limit God. So I believe that Jesus does know as God. But limited His knowledge in human form.

After the resurrection Jesus said all power was given to Him. That in my opinion would include all knowledge. When the disciples repeated their inquiries about the time of His return in Acts chapter 1, it should be noted that Jesus no longer says He does not know. But simply tells them it's not for them to know ...

Jesus in the flesh is the express image of God. It's not the unveiled God. Jesus called His body the temple of God. The flesh is created (Hebrews 10:5). The fullness of the Divine nature was indwelling Him bodily. (Colossians 2:8-9)
many problems however disappear when you consider the "hypostatic union" which is just the idea that Jesus was fully human and yet fully God in one. Basically it deals with the duality of Christ's nature. Trinitarians also believe in the same thing.

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Yes, we do. Yet we believe in the plurality of God.

A simple crude example of how I view this plurality.

My last name is Smith, so is my fathers last name and my son. We are all a Smith.

But my Fathers first name is Tom, mine Dick, and my sons Harry

We are all a Smith, we are all separate and distinct. We are all genetically linked where ever we go, no matter how separated we are by time or space.

God's plurality is not linked by genes, and since we are not privy to the total nature and essence of God, we can only speculate, It is clear that the three separate entities that are one God are connected so closely as to be one.

For illustration, I have used the term 3 points of consciousness in one being, totally alien to us, and since humans always want to use their reason to define everything, unacceptable to many.

These three points of consciousness can be separated, yet are connected and one.

To me, God is omnipresent in that the Father sees and knows everything that occurs, The Spirit can literally be anywhere or every as required by the Father, and the Son, is the intercessor on mans behalf with the Father. They are all God, with three distinct responsibilities.

Here are some verses you might one to look at that show the plurality of God, in the OT

Gen. 3: 22, Gen. 1:16, Gen. 11:7, Isa. 6:8 ,m Isa 6:8 Isa 48: 16-17, Ps. 45:6-7, Ps. 2: 6-7

You are no doubt familiar with the many NT scriptures where Jesus is asserted to be God. You and I will disagree as to what they mean exactly, but we do agree they clearly indicate that Jesus was and is God.

shmogie said:

there are three individual entities in that one God. Each entity is consciously aware and functions individually within that one

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Again, where is this explicitly taught in the Bible?

shmogie said:

My last name is Smith, so is my fathers last name and my son. We are all a Smith.

But my Fathers first name is Tom, mine, and my sons Harry

We are all a Smith, we are all separate and distinct.

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Are you also Tom?

Maximilian said:

Are you also Tom?

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Nope

Maximilian said:

Again, where is this explicitly taught in the Bible?

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If Christ and his Father are one, pretty self evident. If He was going to be stoned for calling himself God, pretty self evident, It was blasphemy for any Jew to worship anyone but God, yet Christ was worshiped, pretty self evident, Paul and Peter referred to him as God, pretty self evident.

I can verify this by 10 different translations of the Bible that I own. One I have I cannot, the New World Translation. However, that alleged translation has altered so much of what was in the Koine Greek original manuscripts, I have little trust in it.

shmogie said:

Nope

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Then, in keeping with your analogy, Christ Jesus is not Jehovah God.

The Athanasian Creed is refuted.

Maximilian said:

Then, in keeping with your analogy, Christ Jesus is not Jehovah God.

The Athanasian Creed is refuted.

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Christ is God. God, the term used in the Koine Greek that the scriptures were written in. Jehovah is not used 237 times in the New Testament, the number of times your denomination fiddled with what was written to add it 237 times in your own Bible.

Creeds are irrelevant, what is written in the Bible are the only things that count.

shmogie said:

If Christ and his Father are one, pretty self evident.

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"After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”" -Matthew 3:16-18

As is clearly evident from the momentous event described in this passage, God and Christ Jesus are not the same entity.

The Athanasian Creed stands refuted.

Maximilian said:

"After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”" -Matthew 3:16-18

As is clearly evident from the momentous event described in this passage, God and Christ Jesus are not the same entity.

The Athanasian Creed stands refuted.

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Shall we go verse by verse on this issue ?

Use any translation, but the NWT

shmogie said:

Yes, we do. Yet we believe in the plurality of God.

A simple crude example of how I view this plurality.

My last name is Smith, so is my fathers last name and my son. We are all a Smith.

But my Fathers first name is Tom, mine Dick, and my sons Harry

We are all a Smith, we are all separate and distinct. We are all genetically linked where ever we go, no matter how separated we are by time or space.

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That's more tritheist than trinity.

shmogie said:

God's plurality is not linked by genes, and since we are not privy to the total nature and essence of God, we can only speculate, It is clear that the three separate entities that are one God are connected so closely as to be one.

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k

shmogie said:

Gen. 3: 22, Gen. 1:16, Gen. 11:7, Isa. 6:8 ,m Isa 6:8 Isa 48: 16-17, Ps. 45:6-7, Ps. 2: 6-7

You are no doubt familiar with the many NT scriptures where Jesus is asserted to be God. You and I will disagree as to what they mean exactly, but we do agree they clearly indicate that Jesus was and is God.

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Genesis 3:22 It can be seen that God is talking to His assembly of angels. It's not that God is always alone. As we see one of the most common names for God in the Bible is "LORD of hosts". Hosts are large numbers of people; in this case angels. God has many angels He speaks with. It would not be the only time in scripture that God does this. Angels are powerful and enlightened beings. It's obvious they have knowledge of good and evil; so it makes sense. Note the following passages: 1 Kings 22:19-20; Psalm 89:6-8;

Genesis 1:16? I don't get your point on this one. Explanation?

Genesis 11:7 easily explained as prophetic to speak of Jesus. Jesus gave the gift of tongues and the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost. (Matthew 3:11) The confounding of languages is a kind of double meaning. It's First of all for punishment on Babel and secondly the gift of the holy Spirit. (Acts 2:1-4) So this is God talking to Jesus (the Son of man) in a prophetic sense that Jesus will do this. That's my view of it.

Isaiah 6:8 is a really good one and again I think it's prophetic of Jesus. Perhaps no prophet in the old Testament talked more about the Son of man Jesus than Isaiah. So for God to say who will go for "us" when commissioning Isaiah is really interesting. This is the same Isaiah that said "Who has believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?" speaking of the Son of man Jesus. (John 12:38, Isaiah 53:1) So Isaiah had a kind of double ministry. On one hand he was to prophecy to Israel of his own time. On the other hand he spoke a lot about Jesus and even the church age.

Isaiah 48:16 is an interesting and kind of obscure one but it can easily be viewed as prophetic as well. Jesus the Son of man speaking from the beginning is also a clue to how prophecies speak of Him. In 1 Peter 1:11 we see that it was the Spirit of Christ in the prophets that gave prophecies about Christ in the scriptures.

Ps. 45:6-7 is definitely prophetic because we know that Jesus was the "Christ" or translated the "anointed one" of God. This anointing is when the Spirit descends upon Him after the baptism. (Matthew 3:16) Here He is anointed above His fellow Israelites in a similar to way to how the boy David was anointed by Samuel as king of Israel; but Jesus is anointed by the Spirit rather than a prophet with olive oil. Otherwise you have to explain why God has "fellows".

Psalm 2:6-7 is prophecy and the Bible itself tells us when this takes place. It happens at the resurrection of Jesus. (Acts 13:33) Colossians 1:18 calls Him "firstborn" from the dead.

Maximilian said:

"After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”" -Matthew 3:16-18

As is clearly evident from the momentous event described in this passage, God and Christ Jesus are not the same entity.

The Athanasian Creed stands refuted.

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What do you mean by the word entity ? You are attempting to use human logic, and human experience to define God.

I

74x12 said:

That's more tritheist than trinity.

k

Genesis 3:22 It can be seen that God is talking to His assembly of angels. It's not that God is always alone. As we see one of the most common names for God in the Bible is "LORD of hosts". Hosts are large numbers of people; in this case angels. God has many angels He speaks with. It would not be the only time in scripture that God does this. Angels are powerful and enlightened beings. It's obvious they have knowledge of good and evil; so it makes sense. Note the following passages: 1 Kings 22:19-20; Psalm 89:6-8;

Genesis 1:16? I don't get your point on this one. Explanation?

Genesis 11:7 easily explained as prophetic to speak of Jesus. Jesus gave the gift of tongues and the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost. (Matthew 3:11) The confounding of languages is a kind of double meaning. It's First of all for punishment on Babel and secondly the gift of the holy Spirit. (Acts 2:1-4) So this is God talking to Jesus (the Son of man) in a prophetic sense that Jesus will do this. That's my view of it.

Isaiah 6:8 is a really good one and again I think it's prophetic of Jesus. Perhaps no prophet in the old Testament talked more about the Son of man Jesus than Isaiah. So for God to say who will go for "us" when commissioning Isaiah is really interesting. This is the same Isaiah that said "Who has believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?" speaking of the Son of man Jesus. (John 12:38, Isaiah 53:1) So Isaiah had a kind of double ministry. On one hand he was to prophecy to Israel of his own time. On the other hand he spoke a lot about Jesus and even the church age.

Isaiah 48:16 is an interesting and kind of obscure one but it can easily be viewed as prophetic as well. Jesus the Son of man speaking from the beginning is also a clue to how prophecies speak of Him. In 1 Peter 1:11 we see that it was the Spirit of Christ in the prophets that gave prophecies about Christ in the scriptures.

Ps. 45:6-7 is definitely prophetic because we know that Jesus was the "Christ" or translated the "anointed one" of God. This anointing is when the Spirit descends upon Him after the baptism. (Matthew 3:16) Here He is anointed above His fellow Israelites in a similar to way to how the boy David was anointed by Samuel as king of Israel; but Jesus is anointed by the Spirit rather than a prophet with olive oil. Otherwise you have to explain why God has "fellows".

Psalm 2:6-7 is prophecy and the Bible itself tells us when this takes place. It happens at the resurrection of Jesus. (Acts 13:33) Colossians 1:18 calls Him "firstborn" from the dead.

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It seems to me that you arbitrarily decide what a verse means, with little reference to what the verse says.

A verse means what it literally says, unless somewhere in the near context it says it is to be viewed a different way.

Bro Rando said:

Well, as least we both concur that God is a title and not a name. The title was given to angels and men alike. It doesn't make them God but rather a representative of God.

Darby Bible Translation (Exodus 7:1)
And Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

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The word there is elohim, one of the words translated as 'G- d'. If this word, which isn't the only name and word translated as 'G- d', is used without specification, it means the Biblical God. Genesis 1:26.
A christian, if using different names for the trinity, just uses either the names , in some form, or can be non'specific , thus you would need context, ie do they mean, Jesus, or the other aspect of G- d, or both.
Aside from that, there is no inherent inference that 'elohim', is being used, the inference, for 'G- d', most of the time, it probably isn't.

Shadow Link said:

Isn't this secretly revealed knowledge forbidden for anyone to share?

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Basically.

'G-d without specification can mean anything'
Notice how that idea doesn't work


I am [____ your G- d'

[____ created the...'

lol

Disciple of Jesus said:

The word there is elohim, one of the words translated as 'G- d'. If this word, which isn't the only name and word translated as 'G- d', is used without specification, it means the Biblical God. Genesis 1:26.
A christian, if using different names for the trinity, just uses either the names , in some form, or can be non'specific , thus you would need context, ie do they mean, Jesus, or the other aspect of G- d, or both.
Aside from that, there is no inherent inference that 'elohim', is being used, the inference, for 'G- d', most of the time, it probably isn't.

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Yes, but it goes much deeper. Elohim can be rendered God in the masculine sense or gods in the feminine sense when pointing to a creation. In the case of Exodus 7:1 it is can actually be rendered 'a god' in the feminine sense, which in turn means godlike one or like God. Same with the case about the Logos in John 1:1c.

Strong's Concordance
theos: God, a god
Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)
Short Definition: God, a god
Definition: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.

shmogie said:

If Christ and his Father are one, pretty self evident. If He was going to be stoned for calling himself God, pretty self evident, It was blasphemy for any Jew to worship anyone but God, yet Christ was worshiped, pretty self evident, Paul and Peter referred to him as God, pretty self evident.

I can verify this by 10 different translations of the Bible that I own. One I have I cannot, the New World Translation. However, that alleged translation has altered so much of what was in the Koine Greek original manuscripts, I have little trust in it.

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Actually, Paul gave witness about Christ being the angel of God. “For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,” (Acts 27:23)

If Jesus was God then why did God tell His Angels what to do concerning Christ? "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."(Hebrew 1:6)

The verse is talking about the Deity of Christ. Who is firstborn of All Creation? Jesus or God?
Who is firstbegotten? Jesus or God?

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:” (John 17:22)

Bro Rando said:

Yes, but it goes much deeper. Elohim can be rendered God in the masculine sense or gods in the feminine sense when pointing to a creation. In the case of Exodus 7:1 it is can actually be rendered 'a god' in the feminine sense, which in turn means godlike one or like God. Same with the case about the Logos in John 1:1c.

Strong's Concordance
theos: God, a god
Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)
Short Definition: God, a god
Definition: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.

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Great.

Disciple of Jesus said:

Great.

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Then why haven´t any of the Hebrew scholars who have translated the Bible into English noted this ?

Why is this only recognized by the Jehovahś Witnesses and the small group who created their Bible ?

The alleged translators of the NWT were not scholars, were not trained in Koine Greek or Hebrew, so then their interpretation of Greek and Hebrew, and their explanation of Hebrew grammar is superior to that of all the other translators ?

Strongs is a good concordance, but it isn´t Gospel nor the only concordance that exists,