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John 14:7, Jesus associates Himself with the Pater, 'father', and says He's the manifestation

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
John 14:7

Here there is some language interpretation, as always, yet how could Jesus not be a manifestation, when He says that He is the way they perceive the 'pater', father, now, this is similar to 'only begotten g- d ', however this is direct, in other words, 'theon' g- d, in these verses, is used for the trinitarian concept, in other verses. So, Jesus here calling Himself 'g- d ' , and parallels to manifestation concept.

Why don't they seem to be aware, of the 'general G'd ' aspects? Sort of strange.

Again what deity is being referred to, not always clear.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
We note a parallel to g- d concept that is found in what became 'judaism', by my estimation. Again, this isn't necessarily inferred, elsewhere, with direct inference.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
John 14:7

Here there is some language interpretation, as always, yet how could Jesus not be a manifestation, when He says that He is the way they perceive the 'pater', father, now, this is similar to 'only begotten g- d ', however this is direct, in other words, 'theon' g- d, in these verses, is used for the trinitarian concept, in other verses. So, Jesus here calling Himself 'g- d ' , and parallels to manifestation concept.

Why don't they seem to be aware, of the 'general G'd ' aspects? Sort of strange.

Again what deity is being referred to, not always clear.

Imagine a pure polished mirror facing the sun. Now if we said the sun was in the mirror we would be correct right as the brilliance of the sun is reflected in the mirror but if we said the mirror was not the sun itself we would also be correct as the sun did not descend into the mirror but was in its own state.

So we Baha’is say that as Christ reflected or Manifested God He was a Manifestation of God but not the essence of God Himself just a perfect reflection like none other.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Imagine a pure polished mirror facing the sun. Now if we said the sun was in the mirror we would be correct right as the brilliance of the sun is reflected in the mirror but if we said the mirror was not the sun itself we would also be correct as the sun did not descend into the mirror but was in its own state.

So we Baha’is say that as Christ reflected or Manifested God He was a Manifestation of God but not the essence of God Himself just a perfect reflection like none other.
I would relate these occurences in Scripture to the 'deity' that presents Himself to the world, however in these verses and others, Jesus uses the words pater father, now...Jesus doesn't say His father. Jesus says 'g- d, or He says 'pater'...
Not His Father.
Who is the 'pater elsewhere? In the Epistles, it is 'G- d, our father'. Our father, not Jesus's father. Now, this would be easily interpreted as both Jesus's father, and our father, it doesn't really follow, in Scripture, though. Even though is the common interpretation.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I would relate these occurences in Scripture to the 'deity' that presents Himself to the world, however in these verses and others, Jesus uses the words pater father, now...Jesus doesn't say His father. Jesus says 'g- d, or He says 'pater'...
Not His Father.
Who is the 'pater elsewhere? In the Epistles, it is 'G- d, our father'. Our father, not Jesus's father. Now, this would be easily interpreted as both Jesus's father, and our father, it doesn't really follow, in Scripture, though. Even though is the common interpretation.

Some reflections

He who has seen Me has seen the Father John 14:9

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father Mat 16:27

So Christ returns as the Father?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The verses tend to be 'interpreted', to my estimation. So for example Jesus in Matthew 23:9-10 seems to be separating Himself from the 'pater', however this doesn't seem literal, in other words Jesus could be calling Himself, the pater, and the instructor, in these verses.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
John 14:7

Here there is some language interpretation, as always, yet how could Jesus not be a manifestation, when He says that He is the way they perceive the 'pater', father, now, this is similar to 'only begotten g- d ', however this is direct, in other words, 'theon' g- d, in these verses, is used for the trinitarian concept, in other verses. So, Jesus here calling Himself 'g- d ' , and parallels to manifestation concept.

Why don't they seem to be aware, of the 'general G'd ' aspects? Sort of strange.

Again what deity is being referred to, not always clear.

I'm sorry, I think we should look at the entirety of what Jesus said than just read a small part of his preaching and derive an unsure conclusion. Therefore we should examine the entire chapter and I would enlarge important segments of what the Lord Jesus said so you could judge for yourself if he did claim or called himself God.

From the top:

John 14 New International Version (NIV)

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

“All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

“Come now; let us leave.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
John 14:7
John 14:
7 "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him."
Read on two verses. Jesus says in the same breath ─
John 14:
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works."

No sign of the Trinity there. Not for another three centuries.
 
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whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
John 14:7

Here there is some language interpretation, as always, yet how could Jesus not be a manifestation, when He says that He is the way they perceive the 'pater', father, now, this is similar to 'only begotten g- d ', however this is direct, in other words, 'theon' g- d, in these verses, is used for the trinitarian concept, in other verses. So, Jesus here calling Himself 'g- d ' , and parallels to manifestation concept.

Why don't they seem to be aware, of the 'general G'd ' aspects? Sort of strange.

Again what deity is being referred to, not always clear.

I don't think its as simple as saying God beards 3 hats: a father sone and spirit hat. The son praying to the father suggests they are different in persons. Other places called them each God suggests one in divine nature. One is divine essence and threes in persons seems to be more the case

I think you could say the son is the eternally generated idea / image of the father who is also a person and the spirit is the eternally generated idea / image of the love between the father and son as some have suggested
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I'm sorry, I think we should look at the entirety of what Jesus said than just read a small part of his preaching and derive an unsure conclusion. Therefore we should examine the entire chapter and I would enlarge important segments of what the Lord Jesus said so you could judge for yourself if he did claim or called himself God.

From the top:

John 14 New International Version (NIV)

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

“All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

“Come now; let us leave.
That's a good argument for the trinity.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I don't think its as simple as saying God beards 3 hats: a father sone and spirit hat. The son praying to the father suggests they are different in persons. Other places called them each God suggests one in divine nature. One is divine essence and threes in persons seems to be more the case

I think you could say the son is the eternally generated idea / image of the father who is also a person and the spirit is the eternally generated idea / image of the love between the father and son as some have suggested
In many verses this seems to be interpretive, and, in many it can be or would or might make more sense that Jesus is calling Himself the pater, father, in the context.

In other words, what you suggested the 'premise', to be, or mean, might not even be the context, at all.

Jesus calling Himself 'pater' father for example wouldn't necessarily mean that Jesus is calling Himself the son of the Tetragrammaton, so forth. So, not sure what you are trying to " argue".


Matthew 27:46

The wording there, and the inference, could just, or just literally suggest, as @wizanda has the configuration, the Main deity isn't in a trinity, also isnt the Tetragrammaton.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
John 14:7

Here there is some language interpretation, as always, yet how could Jesus not be a manifestation, when He says that He is the way they perceive the 'pater', father, now, this is similar to 'only begotten g- d ', however this is direct, in other words, 'theon' g- d, in these verses, is used for the trinitarian concept, in other verses. So, Jesus here calling Himself 'g- d ' , and parallels to manifestation concept.

Why don't they seem to be aware, of the 'general G'd ' aspects? Sort of strange.

Again what deity is being referred to, not always clear.

Are you Jewish?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Are you Jewish?
John 14:
7 "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him."
Read on two verses. Jesus says in the same breath ─
John 14:
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works."

No sign of the Trinity there. Not for another three centuries.
Unclear whether you're agreeing with the premise, or not, however,
There is more than one 'trinity' concept.
Jesus calling Himself 'pater', or father, may or may not have anything to do with the 'father' in the trinity concepts, and that is religious inference. The 'father' in an unspecified trinity configuration, might not be the Tetragrammaton, also.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Speaking of which, a 'heavenly instructor', can be Jesus, another person, [who is one with Jesus, or, Jesus may simply not be referring to any other pater and instructor, at all.

Jesus could be saying, 'I'm the pater, manifestation of your G- d, the Heavenly instructor'. In this example, 'the only Rabbi' in other words.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Other places called them each God suggests one in divine nature. One is divine essence and threes in persons seems to be more the case

Therefore Jesus would be G- d, which you disagree with, saying that Jesus isn't the father. That's why you need to specify the father, if you are calling the father, G- d, and not calling Jesus, G- d. Because it isn't clear if you are calling Jesus G- d, or not, and seems to vary by context.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Unclear whether you're agreeing with the premise, or not, however,
There is more than one 'trinity' concept.
Jesus calling Himself 'pater', or father, may or may not have anything to do with the 'father' in the trinity concepts, and that is religious inference. The 'father' in an unspecified trinity configuration, might not be the Tetragrammaton, also.
There are five Jesuses in the NT, one each by Paul and the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. But none of them is, or ever claims to be, God, and indeed each of them at some point denies that he is.

The god in question is the god of Judaism, and in all five versions Jesus is a Jew. Luke's Jesus is specifically circumcised. By 30 CE the god of the Jews had been a monogod for five centuries or more.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
There are five Jesuses in the NT, one each by Paul and the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. But none of them is, or ever claims to be, God, and indeed each of them at some point denies that he is.

The god in question is the god of Judaism, and in all five versions Jesus is a Jew. Luke's Jesus is specifically circumcised. By 30 CE the god of the Jews had been a monogod for five centuries or more.
This doesn't refute what I wrote, even though it's [your statements, are sketchy. Again statements with no verses, about Jesus saying He isn't G- d, just present the verses.
 
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