Jesus is God, vs Jesus isn't g- d, same religion?[no

loverofhumanity · Mar 7, 2019

MJFlores said:
How do you mix Judaism, Islam and Christianity?
Where do Mohammad and Christ go together?
Who is the head of Baha'i? Is it Christ, Mohammad or Moses?
When doctrinal conflict arises among books which will prevail Old Testament, New Testament or Qumran?
Do Baha'i eat pork? How about shrimp and crabs?

Just like Christians turn to Jesus and follow His laws after Moses but still accept Moses, Baha’is accept the Prophets that have come since but follow the laws of the latest Messenger of God. For Christians they see Jesus as the latest so they follow His laws. Baha’is accept all the Prophets of the past but follow the laws of God’s latest Messenger, Baha’u’llah, which translated into English means the Glory of God.

Desert Snake · Mar 7, 2019

MJFlores said:
Former JHVH witness? Just my guess.
My first guess would have been, a former 7th day Adventist.

Neither. Not from a 'denomination'.

MJFlores · Mar 8, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
Very good question. Thanks for that. There are different ways of approaching this.

We Baha’is believe such laws were not permanent but revealed for each religion according to the needs of the age they were revealed and maybe health risks such as storage of pork in the hot desert. For whatever reason it was for that time we believe. In today’s world with such things as fridges and freezers Baha’u’llah has lifted these restrictions.

But each religion will follow its own laws. However these fall more under social laws than doctrinal as they are not spiritual things. Spiritually Baha’is believe religions as far as morals, virtues and ethics go are one in essence.

I know for a fact that Madonna is Baha'i Faith
How do you conduct worship services.
How many times a week?
Is there a schedule of worship services?
Are outsiders / guest free to observe?

MJFlores · Mar 8, 2019

Disciple of Jesus said:
In the Epistles, time and again, you encounter 'G-d our father, [and the Lord Jesus Christ'. In other words, 'Lord' for the father, is actually more of a religious belief determined from the entire text, like the Old Testament.

So, there are 'two Lords', in other words.
Matthew 22:44
Matthew 22:43

Now, note interpretation, 2 Corinthians 6:18, which Lord is that?
'Angel of the Lord', another, which Lord? The " father"? Are you sure? Doesn't Jesus say the sacrifice is of His own accord? Jesus commands angels, also. Ever read those verses?

• however concerning the 'Logos', the idea is that Jesus is a manifestation of the Logos, which is called G- d.
John 1:1
John 1:10
John 1:1-12
So, how 'non literal' are you willing to interpret the text?

Let us take it step by step.
Multiple verses won't help and we would end up with a convoluted discussion about Jesus Christ.

Let us examine "The Two Lords"

Matthew 22:43-44 New International Version (NIV)
He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’

I BELIEVE that the two Lords there, is the Lord God Almighty and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Let us examine their Definition of LORDSHIP, based on the bible and not from our opinions.

The Lord Almighty's lordship comes inherent in Him even before and during the creation of the earth and the heavens:

Genesis 2:4 New International Version (NIV)
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

How about the Lord Jesus Christ? Is the lordship the same as that of the Lord God?

Acts 2:36 New International Version (NIV)
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

The lordship of the Lord Jesus Christ was given by God as declared by the apostles of Christ [particularly Peter] and Peter assured this - God has made this Jesus both Lord and Messiah.

CONCLUSION:
The lordship of Jesus Christ was given by God while the lordship of God was from the beginning and inherent in Him since the creation of the universe.

Again, we should be open minded
Be inquisitive and investigative
Be skeptical and test all things
We should not be mindless zombies of the things we accepted as truths in the past
Is this in the bible? Accept if it is, reject if it is not there.
That is how the truth about the living God can come out in this world of the dead.

Desert Snake · Mar 8, 2019

MJFlores said:
This will render the teaching of the Bible and the Lord Jesus in error:

^

Deuteronomy 6:4 New International Version (NIV)
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

^

Mark 12:29 New International Version (NIV)
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

^

MJFlores said:
CONCLUSION:
The lordship of Jesus Christ was given by God while the lordship of God was from the beginning and inherent in Him since the creation of the universe.

So, two lords.

loverofhumanity · Mar 8, 2019

MJFlores said:
I know for a fact that Madonna is Baha'i Faith
How do you conduct worship services.
How many times a week?
Is there a schedule of worship services?
Are outsiders / guest free to observe?

We have services at least weekly in our House of Worship all around the world which are dedicated to all religions. You will see in the architecture the symbols of all Faiths including the Christian cross.

We read from the Bible, Quran, Bhagavad-Gita, Buddhist scriptures, Zoroastrian, Bábí and Baha’i Writings. We have no priests or sermons and only the Word of God is read in them.

Bahá'í House of Worship - Wikipedia

.

Desert Snake · Mar 8, 2019

MJFlores said:
It is my faith that Jesus Christ is a man, a very special man.
So special that God made him his Son and gave him a name above every other name that everyone should kneel in his name to glorify the Father.

Let us check John 1:1-4 using NIV for better comprehension

John 1:1-4 New International Version (NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

If we were to superimpose the Word as Jesus Christ [which people say "Jesus is the Word hence he is God"] and recast the wording this is how it would look like:

In the beginning was Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ was with God, and Jesus Christ was God. Jesus Christ was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

What would result? There will be 2 gods - Jesus Christ and the god who was with Jesus Christ..

This will render the teaching of the Bible and the Lord Jesus in error:

Deuteronomy 6:4 New International Version (NIV)
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Mark 12:29 New International Version (NIV)
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

The Bible did not say the Lord our Gods are TWO. The Lord our God is ONE. so what is the correct bible translation of John 1:1-4?

John 1
Moffatt(i) 1 THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine. 2 He was with God in the very beginning: 3 through him all existence came into being, no existence came into being apart from him. 4 In him life lay, and this life was the Light for men:
John 1 THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.

The Word = The Logos
The Logos defined: Logos - Wikipedia

Logos (UK: /ˈloʊɡɒs, ˈlɒɡɒs/, US: /ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Ancient Greek: λόγος, translit. lógos; from λέγω, légō, lit. 'I say') is a term in Western philosophy, psychology, rhetoric, and religion derived from a Greek word variously meaning "ground", "plea", "opinion", "expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "reason", "proportion", and "discourse"

MJFlores said:

If Jesus is the manifestation of God, is he God?
Or it was a mistake to use the word "manifestation"?
How many Gods are there?

Click to expand...

So the Word is the Logos is the Expectation about Jesus Christ is the Thought about Jesus Christ
Now would that make sense?

No it really doesn't make sense. Jesus is a Manifestation, therefore 'God', and 'Lord'.

So when Believers say God, or JHVH, who is God, they are also saying Jesus. Jesus is in Spirit form, Ie God.

Elohim.

Lord God means both aspects of God, which includes Jesus.

MJFlores · Mar 8, 2019

Disciple of Jesus said:
^

^

^

So, two lords.

One God who is Lord from the very beginning
One Jesus Christ whose Lordship comes from God [God given]

Let us read from a Catholic translated Bible. The Catholic church has a dogma of the Trinity and in this dogma, Jesus is one of the persons in the Trinity. In the Catholic church, which I once belonged, taught me that Jesus is God.

Acts 2:36 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
Therefore let the entire house of Israel know with certainty that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

MJFlores · Mar 8, 2019

Disciple of Jesus said:
No it really doesn't make sense. Jesus is a Manifestation, therefore 'God', and 'Lord'.

So when Believers say God, or JHVH, who is God, they are also saying Jesus. Jesus is in Spirit form, Ie God.

Elohim.

Lord God means both aspects of God, which includes Jesus.

Elohim, JHVH, Jesus is God and Lord....
Let us stop for a while - are these Biblical?
Or are we just following a teaching which does not make sense?
We follow blindly, we follow without understanding - then what have we become?

We become fanatics - following zealously without knowledge and without understanding.

Is Jesus Christ the Father? No. Jesus Christ is the Son.
Then you will have a big problem if Jesus Christ is God because the Father is God.
Then you will have 2 Gods.

Malachi 2:10 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our ancestors?

If Jesus Christ is God is he also the Father aside from being the Son?
If yes, then you will have 2 gods.

If the Son is the Son and
the Father is the Father
then the one Father is the one God
and the Son is not God
but the Son of God

Which makes sense?

Desert Snake · Mar 8, 2019

MJFlores said:
One God who is Lord from the very beginning
One Jesus Christ whose Lordship comes from God [God given]

Let us read from a Catholic translated Bible. The Catholic church has a dogma of the Trinity and in this dogma, Jesus is one of the persons in the Trinity. In the Catholic church, which I once belonged, taught me that Jesus is God.

Acts 2:36 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
Therefore let the entire house of Israel know with certainty that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

And literally you then derive two g- ds, that's the problem. You don't just derive one deity, from that configuration.
2 Corinthians 6:18
'Lord almighty'.
So forth...

Desert Snake · Mar 8, 2019

Acts of the Apostles 2:36

MJFlores · Mar 8, 2019

Disciple of Jesus said:
And literally you then derive two g- ds, that's the problem. You don't just derive one deity, from that configuration.
2 Corinthians 6:18
'Lord almighty'.
So forth...

Let us read the verse on hand from its context

2 Corinthians 6:15-18 New International Version (NIV)
What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”

Therefore,

“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”

And,

“I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.”

The last verse above is 2 Cor 6:18. There is nothing there to suggest that Jesus is God or the multiplicity of Gods. It is about the instruction of apostle Paul that there should be no inter-faith marriages of the members of the Church and that Idols have no place in the house of worship of God. And Paul cited verses from the old testament to prove his point.

Being children of God does not mean, people will become Gods too.

The following are examples on how to be children of God:
Being peacemakers Matthew 5:9
Those who believe the words of Jesus written in the Bible John 1:12
Those who are led by the Spirit Romans 8:14
Blameless and innocent Philippians 2:15
those who know who God is 1 John 3:1

Desert Snake · Mar 8, 2019

1 Corinthians 8:6
'We have but one Lord, Jesus Christ'

PureX · Mar 8, 2019

Disciple of Jesus said:
Then you need to 'define' Christianity, in more than a vague way.

Why? Why do I have to assume that I 'know it all' regarding Christ, and how I am to respond to the revelation and promise embodied by Jesus, the Christ? The revelation being that God's spirit exists in all of us if we are willing look for it, and the promise being that if we will set our own selfish fears and desires aside, and allow that divine spirit within us to guide our thoughts, feelings, and actions, it will heal us and save us from ourselves, and help us to heal and save others.

shunyadragon · Mar 8, 2019

Disciple of Jesus said:
Judaism doesn't use the new testament, also doesn't have the same theology, as ""christianity"" so your comment is abstract. If your comment were 'literal', Jews wouldn't be able to use the name G- d, for judaism deity.
So, in other words, the methodology maintains [basically, throughout the Bible.

So, if a Jew is using the words incorrectly, it would be in the same manner as a Xian, aside from interpretational variance, like could be in Genesis 1:26. Interpretation not affecting the word usage.

In Judaism:

From: God the Father - Wikipedia

"According to Alon Goshen-Gottstein, in the Old Testament "Father" is generally a metaphor; it is not a proper name for God but rather one of many titles by which Jews speak of and to God. In Christianity fatherhood is taken in a more literal and substantive sense, and is explicit about the need for the Son as a means of accessing the Father, making for a more metaphysical rather than metaphorical interpretation."

Like wise in Islam, but in Islam they will not use the word 'Father' as previously described.

Veigsidhe Karvgwenn · Mar 8, 2019

Hi. Ho it's interessting? In France Jesus is a G.d, it's basically admitted here. But sometimes at the Church for the "Pardon" ( Celtic processions of Brittany) the first place is to give the holy healer and Jesus is named "Le Fils de Dieu" (The Son of God)...
I never asked myself the question about Jesus Christ. A G.d or not ??

MJFlores · Mar 8, 2019

Disciple of Jesus said:
1 Corinthians 8:6
'We have but one Lord, Jesus Christ'

It would be very nice if we could complete the whole thing.

1 Corinthians 8:6 New International Version (NIV)
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

yet for us [the apostles and the first century Christians] this is their belief:
There is one God [who?] THE FATHER
There is one Lord [who?] Jesus Christ

Without conflict to:

Acts 2:36 New International Version (NIV)
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

MJFlores · Mar 8, 2019

Veigsidhe Karvgwenn said:
Hi. Ho it's interessting? In France Jesus is a G.d, it's basically admitted here. But sometimes at the Church for the "Pardon" ( Celtic processions of Brittany) the first place is to give the holy healer and Jesus is named "Le Fils de Dieu" (The Son of God)...
I never asked myself the question about Jesus Christ. A G.d or not ??

Monsieur!
Now is the time to ask yourself, is Jesus the Son of God
OR God?
He cannot be both since there is only One God.
Which is the truth?

Veigsidhe Karvgwenn · Mar 8, 2019

Yes. I just tell about the local forms of Christianity in my corner of France. I don’t think it’s up to me to decide. For my he is a God. But i am not Christian i'm Druid, so i have many gods.

LuisDantas · Mar 8, 2019

Disciple of Jesus said:
There is a big difference between churches that say, Jesus, is G- d, and Jesus, isn't G- d. I won't associate my religious beliefs with churches who say that Jesus isn't God, in fact, I'm more likely to just call Jesus God, than Jesus.

Are these religions the same? They don't seem to be, why are they considered the same religion?

Impossible to say in the general case. One would have to examine the specific situation.

The significant elements of a religion aren't always and necessarily the same, even within a close knit group of adherents to the same denomination.

Jesus is God, vs Jesus isn't g- d, same religion?[no

Same religion? Jesus is God vs Jesus isn't g- d

No

Yes

Merely a textual description, the Bible

We are all the leaves of one tree

Attachments

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

We are all the leaves of one tree

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

shunyadragon

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Aura of atheification