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Looking For A Smart Atheist

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You're not getting it. The soul could die. That is to say life ends. It could be old age, it could be a mauling by a grizzly bear, it could be any death. It doesn't have to be God.



Leviticus 17:11 “For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul in it.”

Leviticus 17:14 “The soul of every sort of flesh is its blood.”



Genesis 19:19-20: Please, now, your servant has found favor in your eyes so that you are magnifying your loving-kindness, which you have exercised with me to preserve my soul alive, but I - I am not able to escape to the mountainous region for fear calamity may keep close to me and I certainly die. Please, now, this city is nearby to flee there and it is a small thing. May I, please, escape there - is it not a small thing? - and my soul will live on.”

Numbers 23:10; "Who has numbered the dust particles of Jacob,
And who has counted the fourth part of Israel?
Let my soul die the death of the upright ones,
And let my end turn out afterward like theirs.”

Joshua 2:13-14; "And you must preserve alive my father and my mother and my brothers and my sisters and all who belong to them, and you must deliver our souls from death.”

At that the men said to her: “Our souls are to die instead of you people! If you will not tell about this matter of ours, it must also occur that when Jehovah gives us the land, we also shall certainly exercise loving-kindness and trustworthiness toward you.”

Judges 5:18; "Zeb′u·lun was a people that scorned their souls to the point of death;
Naph′ta·li also, on the heights of the field."

Judges 16:16; "And it came about that because she pressured him with her words all the time and kept urging him, his soul got to be impatient to the point of dying."

Judges 16:30; "And Samson proceeded to say: “Let my soul die with the Philistines.” Then he bent himself with power, and the house went falling upon the axis lords and upon all the people that were in it, so that the dead that he put to death in his own death came to be more than those he had put to death during his lifetime."

1 Kings 20:31-32; "So his servants said to him: “Here, now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are kings of loving-kindness. Please, let us carry sackcloth upon our loins and ropes upon our heads, and let us go out to the king of Israel. Perhaps he will preserve your soul alive.” Accordingly they girded sackcloth about their loins, with ropes upon their heads, and came in to the king of Israel and said: “Your servant Ben-ha′dad has said, ‘Please, let my soul live.’” To this he said: “Is he still alive? He is my brother.”


OK, so the people that wrote the OT thought the soul could die. They identified the soul with the living body.

Again, so what?

We know we can die. If that's all they are saying, it is a triviality.
 

Earthling

David Henson
OK, so the people that wrote the OT thought the soul could die. They identified the soul with the living body.

Again, so what?

We know we can die. If that's all they are saying, it is a triviality.

So you're an atheist. Or, at least an unbeliever. What is a soul? To a Christian the answer is likely to be from Socrates rather than the Bible. The soul is immortal. It can't die. It may be tortured forever in hell. Which is also a pagan concept. Not scriptural.

To an unbeliever who likely doesn't believe in the supernatural the discovery that, according to the Bible the soul is the life of any breathing creature, and is in the blood, is in effect life, blood . . . is trivial?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
So you're an atheist. Or, at least an unbeliever. What is a soul? To a Christian the answer is likely to be from Socrates rather than the Bible. The soul is immortal. It can't die. It may be tortured forever in hell. Which is also a pagan concept. Not scriptural.

To an unbeliever who likely doesn't believe in the supernatural the discovery that, according to the Bible the soul is the life of any breathing creature, and is in the blood, is in effect life, blood . . . is trivial?

Well, again, the notion of the soul has changed over time as people got more sophisticated concerning their notions of an afterlife. It isn't clear that the older texts of the Bible even have a well-defined afterlife. The later texts definitely do.

Life is in the blood? Not really. Life is breath? Not really. Life and blood are very different things. For example, we can donate blood but not life. You might be able to stretch and say that the 'soul' is oxygen, but that has a host of other difficulties. For example, is the oxygen in the air alive? No.

So, to me, it sounds like some fairly primitive ideas that have little relation to reality.
 

Earthling

David Henson
Well, again, the notion of the soul has changed over time as people got more sophisticated concerning their notions of an afterlife. It isn't clear that the older texts of the Bible even have a well-defined afterlife. The later texts definitely do.

Life is in the blood? Not really. Life is breath? Not really. Life and blood are very different things. For example, we can donate blood but not life. You might be able to stretch and say that the 'soul' is oxygen, but that has a host of other difficulties. For example, is the oxygen in the air alive? No.

So, to me, it sounds like some fairly primitive ideas that have little relation to reality.

That's interesting. You've basically been pretty much handed all of the answers and yet still came to all of the wrong conclusions. I don't think you would be the right person for the project.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
That's interesting. You've basically been pretty much handed all of the answers and yet still came to all of the wrong conclusions. I don't think you would be the right person for the project.


it seems to me like you have conclusions that you want to be drawn as opposed to someone thinking about the evidence and drawing their own conclusions.

So, what conclusions do you want to be drawn? Which conclusions do you think I should have drawn?
 

Earthling

David Henson
it seems to me like you have conclusions that you want to be drawn as opposed to someone thinking about the evidence and drawing their own conclusions.

So, what conclusions do you want to be drawn? Which conclusions do you think I should have drawn?

I wanted to see if you could draw the right conclusions, like a student being shown how to add 2+2 for the first time. Even when you were given the simple answer "the soul isn't immortal" you kept on going and the more you went the further from the truth you got. And the answer was really plain and simple.

You were reaching for other conclusions, apparently from what a skeptic might think of the religious development of the soul. That's why you got the wrong answer. If you would have just listened you would have easily got it right.

Oh, and if you didn't get it right I was hoping at least for an examination of the scriptures that lead you to a well thought out, but incorrect answer.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I wanted to see if you could draw the right conclusions, like a student being shown how to add 2+2 for the first time. Even when you were given the simple answer "the soul isn't immortal" you kept on going and the more you went the further from the truth you got. And the answer was really plain and simple.

OK, some people believed the soul could be killed. So?

I'm still not seeing your point. Some people, before they interacted with Greek philosophy, had a different notion concerning souls than those developed by Greek philosophy. Many people today agree with the Greek view.

OK, so?

You were reaching for other conclusions, apparently from what a skeptic might think of the religious development of the soul. That's why you got the wrong answer. If you would have just listened you would have easily got it right.

Oh, and if you didn't get it right I was hoping at least for an examination of the scriptures that lead you to a well thought out, but incorrect answer.

I looked at what you suggested. Some verses mentioned souls. Some mentioned dying, but not souls. Some mentioned souls that could live forever. Others mentions that souls could die.

Again, it seems rather pointless to me.

So you have some verses that suggest that God can kill souls. So?
 

Earthling

David Henson
OK, some people believed the soul could be killed. So?

I'm still not seeing your point. Some people, before they interacted with Greek philosophy, had a different notion concerning souls than those developed by Greek philosophy. Many people today agree with the Greek view.

OK, so?



I looked at what you suggested. Some verses mentioned souls. Some mentioned dying, but not souls. Some mentioned souls that could live forever. Others mentions that souls could die.

Again, it seems rather pointless to me.

So you have some verses that suggest that God can kill souls. So?

You and I can destroy souls.Why do you keep inserting God where it isn't necessary? What are you reaching for? I've told you the answer. We're not looking for a prize, just an answer to a question?

Can souls end. Be destroyed or die. The answer is yes, according to the Bible. That's all you need. You don't need to address anything else at this time. Not God, not Greek philosophy, just what the Bible says. That's all.

Sorry. You're not the right person. That's no big deal. No insult. No gotcha.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Yeah. See. Amused can be worse than angry. And I think you can still be a buddy and a girl, pal. Reminds me of the South Park Canadian thing. "I'm not your buddy, friend." "Well, I'm not your guy, friend"


Why? I would prefer to deal with amused people than with angry people.

Ciao

- viole
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
You and I can destroy souls.Why do you keep inserting God where it isn't necessary? What are you reaching for? I've told you the answer. We're not looking for a prize, just an answer to a question?

Can souls end. Be destroyed or die. The answer is yes, according to the Bible. That's all you need. You don't need to address anything else at this time. Not God, not Greek philosophy, just what the Bible says. That's all.

Sorry. You're not the right person. That's no big deal. No insult. No gotcha.

I’ll try your test :p I’ve not really read the Bible but I know a few stories through animations and other various media.so, I’m not sure if you want someone who is ignorant on this topic.
 
Last edited:

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
You're not getting it. The soul could die. That is to say life ends. It could be old age, it could be a mauling by a grizzly bear, it could be any death. It doesn't have to be God.



Leviticus 17:11 “For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul in it.”

Leviticus 17:14 “The soul of every sort of flesh is its blood.”



Genesis 19:19-20: Please, now, your servant has found favor in your eyes so that you are magnifying your loving-kindness, which you have exercised with me to preserve my soul alive, but I - I am not able to escape to the mountainous region for fear calamity may keep close to me and I certainly die. Please, now, this city is nearby to flee there and it is a small thing. May I, please, escape there - is it not a small thing? - and my soul will live on.”

Numbers 23:10; "Who has numbered the dust particles of Jacob,
And who has counted the fourth part of Israel?
Let my soul die the death of the upright ones,
And let my end turn out afterward like theirs.”

Joshua 2:13-14; "And you must preserve alive my father and my mother and my brothers and my sisters and all who belong to them, and you must deliver our souls from death.”

At that the men said to her: “Our souls are to die instead of you people! If you will not tell about this matter of ours, it must also occur that when Jehovah gives us the land, we also shall certainly exercise loving-kindness and trustworthiness toward you.”

Judges 5:18; "Zeb′u·lun was a people that scorned their souls to the point of death;
Naph′ta·li also, on the heights of the field."

Judges 16:16; "And it came about that because she pressured him with her words all the time and kept urging him, his soul got to be impatient to the point of dying."

Judges 16:30; "And Samson proceeded to say: “Let my soul die with the Philistines.” Then he bent himself with power, and the house went falling upon the axis lords and upon all the people that were in it, so that the dead that he put to death in his own death came to be more than those he had put to death during his lifetime."

1 Kings 20:31-32; "So his servants said to him: “Here, now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are kings of loving-kindness. Please, let us carry sackcloth upon our loins and ropes upon our heads, and let us go out to the king of Israel. Perhaps he will preserve your soul alive.” Accordingly they girded sackcloth about their loins, with ropes upon their heads, and came in to the king of Israel and said: “Your servant Ben-ha′dad has said, ‘Please, let my soul live.’” To this he said: “Is he still alive? He is my brother.”

So, if I get a full replacement of my blood with another one’s, my soul will go down the drain to be replaced by that other one’s?

Ciao

- viole
 

Earthling

David Henson
Why? I would prefer to deal with amused people than with angry people.

Ciao

- viole

It has been my experience that the amused ones are, just under the surface, just as angry, and on top of that they don't take it serious. The result being they mock and scorn, which can be fun for a while, for me as well, because I will return in kind, but there's a considerable degree of anger 'neath my surface as well and it just gets ugly real quick.

You and I may have gone down that road a ways.
 

Earthling

David Henson
So, if I get a full replacement of my blood with another one’s, my soul will go down the drain to be replaced by that other one’s?

Ciao

- viole

Well, why do you think the Jews drain all of the blood from their meat and Jehovah's Witnesses don't get blood transfusions?
 

Earthling

David Henson
@Earthling I am willing to volunteer my services for you.

I’ll try your test :p I’ve not really read the Bible but I know a few stories through animations and other various media.so, I’m not sure if you want someone who is ignorant on this topic.

Okay. Here's a simple problem you can solve. Well, the answer may not be that simple. I had to figure this out some time ago when the question was put to me. The beauty of it is that there is no dogma attached to it like there is with the soul, and there is very little in the Bible to help you with an answer. This one you pretty much have to think for yourself.

Here it is: God gave us every plant for food. What about Canabis sativa? Is it okay to eat (or smoke) that plant? How about the opium poppy (Papaver somniferum), coca plant (Erythroxylum coca), or the peyote cactus (Lophophora williamsii)? Did God give us these plants to eat too? It would seem that he did, since there are no exceptions given in Genesis 1:29.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You and I can destroy souls.Why do you keep inserting God where it isn't necessary? What are you reaching for? I've told you the answer. We're not looking for a prize, just an answer to a question?

In the quotes you gave, the only times when souls were killed was when directed by God. I'm not reaching for anything. In fact, I consider this a rather trivial point. You asked me to read certain verses. I read them and gave my interpretation. I guess that disagrees with yours.

Can souls end. Be destroyed or die. The answer is yes, according to the Bible. That's all you need. You don't need to address anything else at this time. Not God, not Greek philosophy, just what the Bible says. That's all.

Sorry. You're not the right person. That's no big deal. No insult. No gotcha.

OK, so according to some verses of the Bible souls can be destroyed. According to other verses, some souls can live forever. So?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Okay. Here's a simple problem you can solve. Well, the answer may not be that simple. I had to figure this out some time ago when the question was put to me. The beauty of it is that there is no dogma attached to it like there is with the soul, and there is very little in the Bible to help you with an answer. This one you pretty much have to think for yourself.

Here it is: God gave us every plant for food. What about Canabis sativa? Is it okay to eat (or smoke) that plant? How about the opium poppy (Papaver somniferum), coca plant (Erythroxylum coca), or the peyote cactus (Lophophora williamsii)? Did God give us these plants to eat too? It would seem that he did, since there are no exceptions given in Genesis 1:29.


How about all the poisonous plants?
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
Here it is: God gave us every plant for food. What about Canabis sativa? Is it okay to eat (or smoke) that plant? How about the opium poppy (Papaver somniferum), coca plant (Erythroxylum coca), or the peyote cactus (Lophophora williamsii)? Did God give us these plants to eat too? It would seem that he did, since there are no exceptions given in Genesis 1:29.

Assuming this statement is true, “God have us every plant for food,” then I see no problem with eating any of the plants you mentioned.

Ok, now what?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Here it is: God gave us every plant for food. What about Canabis sativa? Is it okay to eat (or smoke) that plant? How about the opium poppy (Papaver somniferum), coca plant (Erythroxylum coca), or the peyote cactus (Lophophora williamsii)? Did God give us these plants to eat too? It would seem that he did, since there are no exceptions given in Genesis 1:29.
Sorry to butt in, but just thought I'd give my response if it's at all helpful.

If we are taking the Bible at its literal word, then we must also conclude that God gave things for humans to eat that are actually also harmful, poisonous or outright deadly for us to eat. In which case, an additional question arises as to whether or not God gave explicit permission to eat such things with the express intention that we would/should be harmed or poisoned, or whether, in providing things that we have permission to eat, God anticipated the human ability to differentiate between what we could eat and what we should eat. In the former case, I would argue that consumption of any such plant above would, at the very least, be justified; in the latter case, I couldn't possibly say.
 

Earthling

David Henson
In the quotes you gave, the only times when souls were killed was when directed by God. I'm not reaching for anything. In fact, I consider this a rather trivial point. You asked me to read certain verses. I read them and gave my interpretation. I guess that disagrees with yours.

It doesn't have to agree with mine. I really don't think that the quotes I gave you indicated that God necessarily had anything to do with it.

OK, so according to some verses of the Bible souls can be destroyed. According to other verses, some souls can live forever. So?

All you have to determine is whether or not souls end. That's it.
 
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