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Mosaic law still present?

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I have seen the locusts come many times. They blot out the sun.. millions and millions of them..

The people roast them in a wok like pan and they gather them up in feed sacks for the livestock and chickens.

Its not a sign of the end times..

A plague of locusts that has been creeping across the Middle East is set to hit Israel just in time for the Passover holiday, commemorating the original pre-Exodus plague in Egypt. The locusts began swarming on the Red Sea coast of Eritrea and Sudan in December.

March 1, 2019

Locusts May Arrive in Israel in Time to be Served for Passover Seder

And you live where? As for if the locust plague passover Israel, we will have to see. Enough for the dinner table might be fine. I guess it will depend if the blood of the lamb is on the door post.

Excerpts from your link is as follows
warms are often tens of square kilometers in size,” the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO) charged with monitoring locust outbreaks explained. The FAO warned that a swarm of just one square kilometer eats the same amount of food in one day as 35,000 people. “A swarm the size of Bamako (Mali) or Niamey (Niger) can consume what half the population of either country would eat in a single day.”

Though most insects are not kosher and unfit for Jewish consumption, there are four varieties of the insects that are listed as kosher. Some might even consider it fitting to dine on locusts during the Passover Seder ceremony.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
And you live where? As for if the locust plague passover Israel, we will have to see. Enough for the dinner table might be fine. I guess it will depend if the blood of the lamb is on the door post.

Excerpts from your link is as follows
warms are often tens of square kilometers in size,” the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO) charged with monitoring locust outbreaks explained. The FAO warned that a swarm of just one square kilometer eats the same amount of food in one day as 35,000 people. “A swarm the size of Bamako (Mali) or Niamey (Niger) can consume what half the population of either country would eat in a single day.”

Though most insects are not kosher and unfit for Jewish consumption, there are four varieties of the insects that are listed as kosher. Some might even consider it fitting to dine on locusts during the Passover Seder ceremony.

Leviticus 11:22 22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper.

I think they greatly exaggerate the damage locusts do to crops.. I just never saw much damage..
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Leviticus 11:22 22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper.

I think they greatly exaggerate the damage locusts do to crops.. I just never saw much damage..

Locust are world wide, and generally are not in plague proportions. In my neighborhood, they are apparently food for wasps, which I care for less than locusts. As for the United Nations, I have little regard for the organization, but in simply taking account of locust damage, where is their reason for fudging the numbers? From an organic gardener's perspective, even a seemingly handful of mostly unseen bugs, can ruin plenty of crops. As most crops are covered in pesticides, the average grocery store customer does not see what damage is caused by bugs of all types. If the locusts don't eat your food, the pesticides will probably kill you just the same, but a little more slowly, and with probably a little more pain involved.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Locust are world wide, and generally are not in plague proportions. In my neighborhood, they are apparently food for wasps, which I care for less than locusts. As for the United Nations, I have little regard for the organization, but in simply taking account of locust damage, where is their reason for fudging the numbers? From an organic gardener's perspective, even a seemingly handful of mostly unseen bugs, can ruin plenty of crops. As most crops are covered in pesticides, the average grocery store customer does not see what damage is caused by bugs of all types. If the locusts don't eat your food, the pesticides will probably kill you just the same, but a little more slowly, and with probably a little more pain involved.

The locusts used to come in on a wind ahead of rain in the spring.. so the damage they did gave way immediately to more green than usual.
 
Actually an unmarried man and unmarried woman having sex would...make them married.

I misquoted, thanks for the correction. I meant adultery.

But if a man takes a wife and after the fun stuff doesn't believe she was a virgin. Could get her and her father stone, but if he was lying he would only be fine 100 shekels and if my math is correct is worth about 1600 USD. Yeah that seems pretty fair and just law. >.>
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You could say that our culture is heavy influenced by them, but the more we shed there influence the more our society better itself.
So, are you in favor of child sacrifices? I use this as only one example because in some cultures this was very much allowed but the Abrahamic religions taught that this was wrong And we could go through law after law and show where Judeo-Christian teachings have been accepted to the point that we don't even much question them.

IOW, laws just don't come out of nowhere, so the question is what's going to be the basis of our laws?
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
In ancient Israel? As many as he could afford to keep well.

How did that work out for Solomon? Who determines how many "he could afford to keep well", and what about women taking care of themselves (Isaiah 4:1)?

Isaiah 4:1 In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say, "We will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!"
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Most of us just are probably barely able "to keep well" with one. :emojconfused:

Many would be better off living in an attic, than with a contentious woman in a "well" kept large house.

https://biblehub.com/proverbs/25-24.htm
New American Standard Bible. It is better to live in a corner of the roof Than in a house shared with a contentious woman.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
How did that work out for Solomon? Who determines how many "he could afford to keep well", and what about women taking care of themselves (Isaiah 4:1)?

Isaiah 4:1 In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say, "We will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!"
Here is some discussion of your first question
A Costly Yud • Torah.org
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
So, are you in favor of child sacrifices? I use this as only one example because in some cultures this was very much allowed but the Abrahamic religions taught that this was wrong And we could go through law after law and show where Judeo-Christian teachings have been accepted to the point that we don't even much question them.

IOW, laws just don't come out of nowhere, so the question is what's going to be the basis of our laws?

The basis of our laws is that man thinks he has become a god, and knows right from wrong, and has nailed the law to the cross, and that he "surely shall not die" (Genesis 3:4). The outcome is that man "surely shall die", and for his own iniquity (Jeremiah 31:30), and probably sooner than later.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Here is some discussion of your first question
A Costly Yud • Torah.org

I hate links unless they back your own condensed version. As a "good wife" is hard to find, finding more than one would be a challenge. Apparently after "Jacob's distress" (Jeremiah 30:7), there will be more hanging around (Isaiah 4:1), after Jacob has been "chastened justly" but not destroyed "completely" (Jeremiah 30:11).

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+31:10-31...
The Good Wife. 10 It is hard to find a good wife, because she is worth more than rubies. 11 Her husband trusts her completely. With her, he has everything he needs. 12 She does him good and not harm for as long as she lives. 13 She looks for wool and flax and likes to work with her hands. 14 She is like a trader’s ship, bringing food...
 

sooda

Veteran Member
And how many wives could a man have?

The wives of Jacob were Leah and Rachel. Later on Jacob was given Leah's handmaiden Zil'-pah which bore him two sons. Rachel also gave Jacob her handmaiden Bil-hah, who also bore Jacob two sons.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yeshua referred to both the Pharisees and the Sadducees as leaven/hypocrites (Matthew 16:6 & 12) & (Luke 12:1). His message was do as they say, not as they do (Matthew 23:3). The liberals of today, are the more defined hypocrites, and follow the path of the Pharisee Paul, who says to keep the law of God with your mind and the law of sin with your flesh (Romans 7:25). The "teachings" of the Pharisees were based on the "lying pen of the scribes", being the Talmud, which made the "law" "into a lie" (Jeremiah 8:8). That corresponds to the "hypocrites" of today, the liberals, and the liberal media, being the lying pen of the scribes of today. The expressed love and peace of the liberals is best portrayed in the New York liberal Senate cheering the law allowing for the death of live born babies. https://www.faithwire.com/2019/01/2...ter-passing-horrific-late-term-abortion-bill/ That would correspond to the Jews sacrificing their children to the fire (Ezekiel 16:21) & (Leviticus 18:21), or in this case, offering the children to the basement furnace, in honor of the gods of convenience, by means of financial support from "many" of the liberal Jewish community to the liberal senate members. The consequences will be "woe, woe to you" (Ezekiel 16:23) to all supporters of such actions, including RINOs. Best not to live in New York, which according to statistics, numbers of Jews are moving out of state, even before the cut off of state tax deductions. They probably thought they saw the abomination of desolation of Daniel, and are fleeing to the mountains of neighboring states.

Leviticus 18:21You must not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. 22You must not lie with a man as with a woman; that is an abomination.…

The New York Senate was seen erupting in feverish applause after voting 38-24 to approve a bill which would allow abortion up to birth. Heralded as a major victory for pro-abortion activists, the Reproductive Health Act (RHA) was signed on the 46th anniversary of the Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade.

Why is the new legislation so horrifying?
Simply put, the RHA will allow for the termination of fully formed babies. The killings can take place if the patient is 24 weeks from the commencement of pregnancy, if there is an absence of fetal viability, or, if “the abortion is necessary to protect the patient’s life or health.”

Critically, however, the intentional ambiguity of that last part allows for the destruction of the baby at any point during pregnancy should the doctor deem the mother’s wellbeing is at risk. The term “wellbeing” is, in itself, terrifyingly non-specific. So, with regards to these life and death decisions, physicians will be asked to assess “all factors — physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman’s age — relevant to the wellbeing of the patient.”

Effectively, abortion will be available “on demand” up until birth — if the woman wants to terminate her fully-formed child because she claims it is too much for her to deal with financially, emotionally or otherwise, she will be allowed to do so.
Well written post!

First, let me say that I am sympathetic to your conservative morality. I'm sure you know that there are different branches of Judaism, and I cannot possibly represent them all. I agree with the Orthodox Rabbis who condemn the New York abortion legislation; although halakhah does not consider abortion to be murder, it nevertheless considers it to be wrong and in Orthodox communities a woman who wants an abortion is to go before a beit din (Rabbinical tribunal) which will rule whether it is justified or not.

However, we cannot possibly say that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their liberal attitudes. Therefore there can be no comparison between this and your conclusions about the modern "leaven" of liberalism.

To understand Jesus' criticisms of the Pharisees, you must first understand some historical background to give it context. I know this is long, but PLEASE do me the courtesy of reading the whole thing -- it will really give you a whole new depth to understanding the gospels.

There were actually two schools of Pharisees, one which Jesus had no problems with, and one which controlled the Sanhedrin and which Jesus hated. The hated school was actually the more strict one.

The first one was the school of Hillel. Rabbi Hillel was a stickler for obeying the Law, but he didn't want it to be a burden, and looked for ways to make it reasonable.

The second one was the school of Shammai. Rabbai Shammai was extremely strict and austere. He not only wanted Jews to obey the law, but to go way past it so as to not come even close to breaking it. It's not as though there isn't something to be said for avoiding situations that might lead to sin. It's just that Shammai gave all sorts of rulings that made observing the law into an excessive burden.

When Jesus was a very young boy, Rabbi Hillel and his followers controlled the Sanhedrin. In fact, there is a possibility that Jesus met Rabbi Hillel when he went to the Temple at age 12.

However, when Hillel died, the followers of Rabbi Shammai seized control of the Sanhedrin. These were the "religious leaders" with whom Jesus had most of his run ins. It's not as though students of Hillel weren't still around; you had Nicodemus and Simon Arimathea and others. But they weren't in control.

You also need to understand that it was Jewish tradition for the followers of Hillel and Shammai to debate with one another. The Talmud records many such arguments.

The run-ins of Jesus with the Pharisees can be seen in this light. The halakhah (Jewish law) of Jesus was that of Hillel and those he argued with had that of Shammai -- thus you hear him berating them for making the law a burden. You also hear him scorning them for being so concerned with the halakha of Shammai that they forgot the basic 613 laws of the Torah. (He was also livid at their hypocrisy, but that's another topic.)

An example of this would be some of the laws of Shabbat. Shammai ruled that it was unlawful even to heal on the Shabbat. Hillel ruled that not only was it lawful to heal with prayer on the Shabbat, but the necessity of saving a life outruled all other laws, including Shabbat. Thus according to Shammai, Jesus broke the Shabbat when he healed, but according to Hillel he did not.

So you can see how, while neither school was "liberal," it was the school which was stricter which Jesus called "leaven."
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
As compared to the Sadducees who did not accept an oral tradition of the Torah that could be interpreted.
The Sadducees may have rejected the Oral Torah of the Pharisees, but they would have had to have had an oral tradition of their own. What exactly is work, that it is forbidden on the Shabbat? What exactly is the kosher way to slaughter a clean animal? It's the same thing with the Karaite Jews today. They SAY they go only by the Torah, but in fact they have oral traditions. There is no way to follow the Torah without oral traditions to interpret it.

The authority of the Pharisees to teach these oral traditions is based on Torah: Deuteronomy 17:8-13. The fact that the Sadducees rejected this part of the Torah makes them LIBERAL, not the reverse.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Well written post!

First, let me say that I am sympathetic to your conservative morality. I'm sure you know that there are different branches of Judaism, and I cannot possibly represent them all. I agree with the Orthodox Rabbis who condemn the New York abortion legislation; although halakhah does not consider abortion to be murder, it nevertheless considers it to be wrong and in Orthodox communities a woman who wants an abortion is to go before a beit din (Rabbinical tribunal) which will rule whether it is justified or not.

However, we cannot possibly say that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their liberal attitudes. Therefore there can be no comparison between this and your conclusions about the modern "leaven" of liberalism.

To understand Jesus' criticisms of the Pharisees, you must first understand some historical background to give it context. I know this is long, but PLEASE do me the courtesy of reading the whole thing -- it will really give you a whole new depth to understanding the gospels.

There were actually two schools of Pharisees, one which Jesus had no problems with, and one which controlled the Sanhedrin and which Jesus hated. The hated school was actually the more strict one.

The first one was the school of Hillel. Rabbi Hillel was a stickler for obeying the Law, but he didn't want it to be a burden, and looked for ways to make it reasonable.

The second one was the school of Shammai. Rabbai Shammai was extremely strict and austere. He not only wanted Jews to obey the law, but to go way past it so as to not come even close to breaking it. It's not as though there isn't something to be said for avoiding situations that might lead to sin. It's just that Shammai gave all sorts of rulings that made observing the law into an excessive burden.

When Jesus was a very young boy, Rabbi Hillel and his followers controlled the Sanhedrin. In fact, there is a possibility that Jesus met Rabbi Hillel when he went to the Temple at age 12.

However, when Hillel died, the followers of Rabbi Shammai seized control of the Sanhedrin. These were the "religious leaders" with whom Jesus had most of his run ins. It's not as though students of Hillel weren't still around; you had Nicodemus and Simon Arimathea and others. But they weren't in control.

You also need to understand that it was Jewish tradition for the followers of Hillel and Shammai to debate with one another. The Talmud records many such arguments.

The run-ins of Jesus with the Pharisees can be seen in this light. The halakhah (Jewish law) of Jesus was that of Hillel and those he argued with had that of Shammai -- thus you hear him berating them for making the law a burden. You also hear him scorning them for being so concerned with the halakha of Shammai that they forgot the basic 613 laws of the Torah. (He was also livid at their hypocrisy, but that's another topic.)

An example of this would be some of the laws of Shabbat. Shammai ruled that it was unlawful even to heal on the Shabbat. Hillel ruled that not only was it lawful to heal with prayer on the Shabbat, but the necessity of saving a life outruled all other laws, including Shabbat. Thus according to Shammai, Jesus broke the Shabbat when he healed, but according to Hillel he did not.

So you can see how, while neither school was "liberal," it was the school which was stricter which Jesus called "leaven."


Thank you very much.. Now I understand WHY Jesus didn't hate ALL the Pharisees.


"There were actually two schools of Pharisees, one which Jesus had no problems with, and one which controlled the Sanhedrin and which Jesus hated. The hated school was actually the more strict one."
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You appear to be making up Scripture as you go along. And as for Jews, the house of Judah, they do not represent the "house of Israel", which remains "scattered among the nations/Gentiles" (Ezekiel 36:17 & 19), who have yet to be "gathered out" (Ezekiel 36:24).

Isaiah 56:6 And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD to minister to Him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be His servants— all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it and who hold fast to My covenant 7 I will bring them to My holy mountain and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on My altar, for My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations.”…
 
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