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Islam = peace

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
Mujahid Mohammed said:
Where is the tafsir of the ayat. Stop picking out single verses that support what you say according to your limited understanding of Islam.
Anastasios posted them a few posts back in this thread. They were very helpful in confirming that my own flawed understanding wasn't so different from what the comments stated. If you'll read my post again, you'll notice that I was trying to post passages in context rather than single verses. Before posting, I read the whole Surahs as well as at least some of the supporting Hadith.
Mujahid Mohammed said:
Are you a disbeliever. Do you do the things Quraish did to him to people you know. IF YOU DID YOU WOULD BE IN JAIL OR GIVEN CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. e
I am a Believer. I submit my soul and mind only to God, not to a religion and not to people. I am not a believer of Islam, so to you, yes I am a disbeliever/infidel. I do not submit to Muslims (including my own brother in law). So yes, if I were living in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia or any of the other primarily Islamic countries, I would likely be a martyr by now.
Mujahid Mohammed said:
If you sincerely want to know the reason I will help you but if not then you will as everyone else make claims unjustly for you do not have the proper knowledge and it is not your fault. You are not muslim so it is not important. And you probably get your information from a partially reliable source.
Why does not having the muslim label make it unimportant that my knowledge and understanding is not the same as yours? Don't you think it's just as important, if not even MORE important that an infidel who is learning about and challenging the PC claims of your religion to have a 'proper' understanding of the religion?

If I claimed to be a muslim and interpreted the Quran and supporting commentaries the same way I am now, which is very much in line with millions of Muslims worldwide, would that make my claims valid? You and other apologists are trying to refute those claims by saying that Islam is all about peace. Rather than correcting my flawed understanding, you just tell me that my knowledge is inclomplete. This does nothing to change my understanding, other than to confirm that I've hit a nerve.

I am claiming that the peace achieved by killing or forcing submission from those who don't believe in Islam is not just and it's not true peace. Peace under the threat of being blown up or beheaded or jailed or beaten is not peace. You and other apologists are trying to refute those claims by saying that Islam is all about peace.... so we go round and round and round. You pick out invidual verses that say Islam is peace and I refute them by picking out passages that show violence is justified and encouraged. I say neither is the whole picture. You say I'm making silly claims and attacking Islam. How can my understanding ever be complete when the only answers I can get from actual muslims are biased?

The information I'm getting is from reading the Quran (translations of course), hadiths, and now the commentaries as linked for me by Anastasios. If I read a claim on a website (whether pro- or anti-Islam), I go to the source texts (Quran and Hadith) to read the text for myself and come to my own conclusions based on what the text itself says. I have found that simply reading someone else's biased statements never explains the whole picture.
Mujahid Mohammed said:
I am ready to teach you if you are ready to learn the truth about Islam.
That's what I've been trying to do. Trouble is - everywhere I turn except for the Quran and Hadith themselves is biased. Those who want to tell me what the 'truth' really is either want to whitewash over the negative and only show me the PC parts that promote 'peace' or they only want to tell me how the Quran requires Muslims to fight the non-believers until the whole world is under Islamic rule. I don't think either biased view is the whole truth about Islam, though.

So MM - which 'truth' will you teach me? Is it the same politically correct 'Islam is peace' bias that so many apologists want me to believe. I want to learn what Islam is REALLY teaching and why those Muslims who want to see the entire world under Islamic rule find that so easy to justify by the teachings of the religion. If you want to be honest with me and show me ALL of the true Islam, then I'm willing to let you teach me. If you simply want to show me the PC Islam and gloss over or ignore the parts that justify attacking another nation (under the proper 'rules' of course), then how can I know that what you are teaching me is unbiased?
 

Ody

Well-Known Member
champion said:
What the....?? I believe that organizations like Hamas started becuase of Israel, and their acts. Would stop?? Now, you're just talking crazy. The state of Israel has done enough damage to the people of Palestine in a way that this war can almost never stop.

Not to mention the Jewish blood libel which has become a popular conception in the middle east...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=397500503034113739&q=jews

The above link is one the greatest arguement for modern secular zionism in video format.
 

AbuQuteiba

Active Member
jewscout said:
well since neither side has actually stopped fighting there's no way of determining who's opinions are right or wrong on this point, is there? but, again, there have been about 1000 threads on the evils of israel and Israelis and i have no doubt 1000 more will emerge before i leave in December. So these old arguements can wait for another day.



very...was that so hard?:rolleyes:

I've been saying that the whole time. I guess by standing up and yelling it out is the only way that some people understand. (Btw, nothing has stopped, between Palestine and Israel..:rolleyes: )
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
champion said:
I've been saying that the whole time. I guess by standing up and yelling it out is the only way that some people understand. (Btw, nothing has stopped, between Palestine and Israel..:rolleyes: )

i never expected such a statement to end anything in the israeli-palestinian conflict.

secondly you probably do need to yell it out, since others who claim the title of "muslim" are yelling at the top of their lungs that which is the antithesis of Islam's teachings.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Snowbear said:
I am a Believer. I submit my soul and mind only to God.

Believe me that i'm so happy that you are submitting your soul and mind to God. We all are trying our best to be good servant of God. :)

I am claiming that the peace achieved by killing or forcing submission from those who don't believe in Islam is not just and it's not true peace. Peace under the threat of being blown up or beheaded or jailed or beaten is not peace.

I agree with you and i don't think anyone will disagree with what you said.

I want to learn what Islam is REALLY teaching and why those Muslims who want to see the entire world under Islamic rule find that so easy to justify by the teachings of the religion. If you want to be honest with me and show me ALL of the true Islam, then I'm willing to let you teach me. If you simply want to show me the PC Islam and gloss over or ignore the parts that justify attacking another nation (under the proper 'rules' of course), then how can I know that what you are teaching me is unbiased?

OK. Let us learn together. :)

Freeing people from tyranny

Allah admonishes Muslims in the Qur'an:

"And why should you not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? Men, women, and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You, one who will protect; and raise for us from You, one who will help'." 4:75

The mission of the Prophet Muhammad(S) was to free people from tyranny and exploitation by oppressive systems. Once free, individuals in the society were then free to chose Islam or not. Prophet Muhammad's(S) successors continued in his footsteps and went to help oppressed people. For example, after the repeated call by the oppressed people of Spain to the Muslims for help, Spain was liberated by Muslim forces and the tyrant rulers removed. After the conquest of Syria and Iraq by the Muslims, the Christian population of Hims reportedly said to the Muslims:
"We like your rule and justice far better than the state of oppression and tyranny under which we have been living."

The defeated rulers of Syria were Roman Christians and Iraq was ruled by Zoarastrian Persians.

For more details about the concept of Jihad please read this thread.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37700

This one is well.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996015820

In brief, Islam believes in freedom of choice. Faith itself is a choice in Islam. The Qur’an states: [No compulsion in religion…] (Al-Baqarah 2: 256). All have the freedom to practice their own faith without harassment or any kind of threat.

Now tell me why you think this is not a peaceful religion after all these facts?

No body deny that sometimes force have to be used in order to gain peace but what i don't understand is that why such a thing is considered to be somthing not peaceful when there is no violation for the rights of the individuals under islamic rule.

The history of Islam proves this very well when Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived together in dominant Islamic societies. We can contrast this to the Muslims who lived in Christian Spain when they were persecuted and prejudiced against on account of their faith.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Snowbear said:
Anastasios posted them a few posts back in this thread. They were very helpful in confirming that my own flawed understanding wasn't so different from what the comments stated. If you'll read my post again, you'll notice that I was trying to post passages in context rather than single verses. Before posting, I read the whole Surahs as well as at least some of the supporting Hadith.
You need to know the reason for the revelation and the history of Islam ie. what was going on at the time and what led up to the revelation.

I am a Believer. I submit my soul and mind only to God, not to a religion and not to people. I am not a believer of Islam, so to you, yes I am a disbeliever/infidel. I do not submit to Muslims (including my own brother in law).
As I said you cannot submit to a muslim. This is not permissible. Second the only one who defines who is a disbeliever is Allah. Not me, not any muslim living today.

Why does not having the muslim label make it unimportant that my knowledge and understanding is not the same as yours? Don't you think it's just as important, if not even MORE important that an infidel who is learning about and challenging the PC claims of your religion to have a 'proper' understanding of the religion?
You do not need to be muslim to have the same understanding as long as you understand it the way the Messenger and his companions did. They are the ones who gave us the message. Yes it is important for you to understand it properly that is why I and many others are telling you to read the tafsir of the Quran. STOP CALLING YOURSELF AN INFIDEL. You are not one unless you die in a state of disbelief or you are doing the things that the Quraish pagans did. Because they knew Muhammed was a messenger but out of arrogance they rejected the message.

If I claimed to be a muslim and interpreted the Quran and supporting commentaries the same way I am now, which is very much in line with millions of Muslims worldwide, would that make my claims valid?
What muslims where. Are they scholars of the religion. Many muslims themselves do not understand the relgion as this is what the prophet said the state of the muslims would be in the end of times. Their knowledge of it would be seriously depleted.

You and other apologists are trying to refute those claims by saying that Islam is all about peace. Rather than correcting my flawed understanding, you just tell me that my knowledge is inclomplete. This does nothing to change my understanding, other than to confirm that I've hit a nerve.
I am not an apologists. I do not condone the actions of muslims who go outside of the religion nor interpret it the way the see fit. As i told you in another post I will give you tafsir of the verses. Just be patient. And you are not hitting a nerve.

I am claiming that the peace achieved by killing or forcing submission from those who don't believe in Islam is not just and it's not true peace.
Exactly and htis is not Islam.

Peace under the threat of being blown up or beheaded or jailed or beaten is not peace.
Again this is forbidden in Islam. Read the hadiths about the punishment for killing yourself or killing unjustly.

You and other apologists are trying to refute those claims by saying that Islam is all about peace.... so we go round and round and round. You pick out invidual verses that say Islam is peace and I refute them by picking out passages that show violence is justified and encouraged. I say neither is the whole picture. You say I'm making silly claims and attacking Islam. How can my understanding ever be complete when the only answers I can get from actual muslims are biased?
They are only biased because you refuse to interpret our religion in the context of the messenger and his companions.

The information I'm getting is from reading the Quran (translations of course), hadiths, and now the commentaries as linked for me by Anastasios. If I read a claim on a website (whether pro- or anti-Islam), I go to the source texts (Quran and Hadith) to read the text for myself and come to my own conclusions based on what the text itself says. I have found that simply reading someone else's biased statements never explains the whole picture.
Exactly that is why you need the companions and the messenger to explain it.

That's what I've been trying to do. Trouble is - everywhere I turn except for the Quran and Hadith themselves is biased. Those who want to tell me what the 'truth' really is either want to whitewash over the negative and only show me the PC parts that promote 'peace' or they only want to tell me how the Quran requires Muslims to fight the non-believers until the whole world is under Islamic rule. I don't think either biased view is the whole truth about Islam, though.
Not true. Read the tafsir.

So MM - which 'truth' will you teach me? Is it the same politically correct 'Islam is peace' bias that so many apologists want me to believe. I want to learn what Islam is REALLY teaching and why those Muslims who want to see the entire world under Islamic rule find that so easy to justify by the teachings of the religion. If you want to be honest with me and show me ALL of the true Islam, then I'm willing to let you teach me. If you simply want to show me the PC Islam and gloss over or ignore the parts that justify attacking another nation (under the proper 'rules' of course), then how can I know that what you are teaching me is unbiased?
There are many things you must know first. I will start a post insha Allah and give you the history of it because this coincides with the verses revealed then I will teach you some of the tafsir. It is alot 10 volumes of books. (that may take some time) And then the way the messenger dealt with people will help you as well. I just want you to understand what they were going through and who they were going against. People forget many times about what the muslims went through in the beginning and certain instances that happened. The life of Muhammed would help you first. And then the tafsir and then a proper study of what is the hadith how we got it and what is accepted and what is rejected and how do we know. This will take some time but if you are willing I will start with what we call the Seerah or the way or path of the Messenger. The post will be called either the Sealed nectar (more detailed) or the Splitting of the Moon. Sunday insha Allah I will have the time.
 

lets_debate

Member
Islam is the only religion which guarantees peace in every aspect of our life. Peace in everything and anything; security, spirituality, mind etc. Now concerning the issue of 'terrorists' and 'world peace'; what people don't understand is that there in every religion there are three kinds of people (even in Islam). The three kinds of people are: 1. People who call themselves believers just for the sake of it. 2. People who follow the authentic and right path. 3. People who make misconceptions in religion or interpret religion wrongly and use it in doing wrong (a.k.a Extremists).
You all can notice that 1 & 3 are two extremes, 1 consists of people who have a weak faith and can be deterred easily. 3 consists of people who may or may not have a strong faith but are interpretting the knowledge of religion in the wrong way eg. Islam says that you can defend yourself against the enemy. And it also says that the women and children are not be harmed in ANY CASE. The extremists take this in the wrong sense or use it for their advantage inorder to propogate their own political ideas. The extremists slaughter women and children inorder to 'defend themselves'. Islam also says that no man/woman can be forced into accepting the religion. The extremists forget this and hence terrorist activities etc.
The best are the people who follow the authentic teachings and in Islam it is obviously the Qur'an and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H).
 

AbuQuteiba

Active Member
jewscout said:
i never expected such a statement to end anything in the israeli-palestinian conflict.

secondly you probably do need to yell it out, since others who claim the title of "muslim" are yelling at the top of their lungs that which is the antithesis of Islam's teachings.

Then why have you been asking for it for so long?? 2nd paragraph= :cover:
 
I feel sorry and furstrated because this thread changed into a fight while I wanted it to be a logical depate

we reached a closed path that we cant go forward in this discusion by the time we are insulting each other

as I started this topic and this thread I want it to come to an end right now because I dont want to creat a hatred between the poeple in this forum by the time we all should be friend whatever our religions are

and let me move the depate to this new thread :

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39600


I cant hardly wait for your replys .


 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
The Truth said:
As a result for bringing up Hamas and the rest on the table.

i think a debate entitled "islam=peace" should include a discussion of those who claim to be adherents to such a faith yet act in contradiction to it's message of peace.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
jewscout said:
i think a debate entitled "islam=peace" should include a discussion of those who claim to be adherents to such a faith yet act in contradiction to it's message of peace.

:confused:

Did i hit you or somthing?

What are you talking about?
 

AbuQuteiba

Active Member
jewscout said:
i think a debate entitled "islam=peace" should include a discussion of those who claim to be adherents to such a faith yet act in contradiction to it's message of peace.

Actually, i think this your suggestion is totally incorrect. I think its what started the whole argument in the first place. Plus, as people on this forum, we can only justify that which is part of the religion (scriptures), not the acts of extremists (whether they are muslim or not) some place else where. As we should not blame Judaism for some of the acts of the "Jews" in Israel, we should not blame Islam, for some of the so called "muslim" acts.

Thank you.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
however one can be a Jew and have absolutely no connection to Judaism or the Torah (they are called secular or non-religious Jews). Israel does not claim to be a Torah government nor a representative of Judaism as a faith.

this is in contrast to hamas and hezbullah which invokes the name of G-d and quran to justify actions which are in contradiction to Islam.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I would show you that Israel meant to be a Jewish state based on religious scriptures which instruct all Jewish to gather in one place but i don't want to turn this thread to Israeli-Palestinian one because we have got many in the political forum about it.

Let it be about Islam solely. :)
 

AbuQuteiba

Active Member
jewscout said:
however one can be a Jew and have absolutely no connection to Judaism or the Torah (they are called secular or non-religious Jews). Israel does not claim to be a Torah government nor a representative of Judaism as a faith.

this is in contrast to hamas and hezbullah which invokes the name of G-d and quran to justify actions which are in contradiction to Islam.

Yes, thats true.But once, you showed us that many "orthodox" jews do agree to the state of Israel (like yourself i assume). You even showed a pic where one guy (sorry, you mentioned his name, but i forgot) was parading around with the Israeli soldiers. So are you saying that you do not think that the current Israel is a jewish state?

I've said before. It does'nt really matter in who's or whats name terrorists use to justify their acts. So what they say its in the name of Islam, or Allah. Does that mean it really is? And is there in Islam a basis for this terrorism (within its holy scriptures)?
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
I've said before. It does'nt really matter in who's or whats name terrorists use to justify their acts. So what they say its in the name of Islam, or Allah. Does that mean it really is? And is there in Islam a basis for this terrorism (within its holy scriptures)?
That's one question. The other question is "is there a relationship between the religion and terrorism".

For example. There's no neccessity within a dictatorship that it limit freedoms, yet there's certainly a tie between the two. The envyronment of a dictatorship lends itself to limitations of liberty.

Is there a similar relationship between Islam and terrorism and why? I could certainly guess at some possabilities (the dangers of fundamentalism, especially for a follower-mentality; the dangers of advocating conformity, etc).

Let's face it: Osama won't be strapping a bomb to himself anytime soon. It is the followers, not the leaders, who are killing themselves. Does the nature of the religion lend itself to creating such "total ruler-blind follower" relationships. Certainly the spectre of God and punishment/praise from him creates a situation where "because someone wants it" is worth dying and killing for.
 
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