Christians -- unconditional grace?

OK. I'll define my position very clearly for you. All humanity are God's children. Even unrepentant sinners. Even Muslims and Hindus and Pagans. I have a feeling we may disagree about this.

sojourner said:

OK. I'll define my position very clearly for you. All humanity are God's children. Even unrepentant sinners. Even Muslims and Hindus and Pagans. I have a feeling we may disagree about this.

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I agree with everything except the "unrepentant sinners" bit.

I heard an anecdote that illustrates my point. A family were going to have a portrait made. Shortly before time to leave for the studio, the doorbell rang. There stood a neighbor with the family's little boy, covered head to toe in mud. "I caught him playing in my new flowerbeds. Does he belong to you?" The parents answered, "Yes." And apologized.

They claimed him, even though he was dirty and in a foul mood, and bathed him, and included him in the portrait. I feel that God claims even those of us who are dirty, cleans us up and makes us part of the family.

sojourner said:

I heard an anecdote that illustrates my point. A family were going to have a portrait made. Shortly before time to leave for the studio, the doorbell rang. There stood a neighbor with the family's little boy, covered head to toe in mud. "I caught him playing in my new flowerbeds. Does he belong to you?" The parents answered, "Yes." And apologized.

They claimed him, even though he was dirty and in a foul mood, and bathed him, and included him in the portrait. I feel that God claims even those of us who are dirty, cleans us up and makes us part of the family.

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I agree. And further, even when he sees us all muddy we are still beautiful to Him. He sees the real us under all the mud.

luna

sojourner said:

I heard an anecdote that illustrates my point. A family were going to have a portrait made. Shortly before time to leave for the studio, the doorbell rang. There stood a neighbor with the family's little boy, covered head to toe in mud. "I caught him playing in my new flowerbeds. Does he belong to you?" The parents answered, "Yes." And apologized.

They claimed him, even though he was dirty and in a foul mood, and bathed him, and included him in the portrait. I feel that God claims even those of us who are dirty, cleans us up and makes us part of the family.

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And what would a good family do but take him and clean him?
"But nothing unclean shall enter it [heaven] . . ." (Rev. 21:27).

Our Father loves us unconditionally, but loves us too much to let us remain dirty. I think Luther had a more accurate representation of it when he said that we are "dung covered in snow". The self is what is truly dirty. If one thinks that one can remain dirty and have an eternal relationship with God then I can only say they are swaying away from Traditional Christianity.

Believers should always look to the one who has caused them to believe and give thanks.

You must alway remember who it is that cleans you. There is nothing you can do to clean yourself for all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags in the sight of God.
As for freewill, God calls it boasting and evil.
James 4:13-16
13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

As for choosing God, it is He that chooses you.
John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...

It is He that gives the hearing ear and seeing eye.
Prov 20:12
12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

It is He that changes the heart of stone:
Ezek 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

God should get the glory for His work in you. If God has chosen you, realize it and give Him thanks.

Victor said:

And what would a good family do but take him and clean him?
"But nothing unclean shall enter it [heaven] . . ." (Rev. 21:27).

Our Father loves us unconditionally, but loves us too much to let us remain dirty. I think Luther had a more accurate representation of it when he said that we are "dung covered in snow". The self is what is truly dirty. If one thinks that one can remain dirty and have an eternal relationship with God then I can only say they are swaying away from Traditional Christianity.

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Yikes! I should think it would be the other way round! We are snow, covered in dung.

If we are made in God's image, then we are made pure. It's our sin that covers our true selves in dung.

Of course God loves us too much to let us remain dirty. That's why God came to us in our form, to reconcile us to God. We have been made clean, by the Christ-event.

sojourner said:

Yikes! I should think it would be the other way round! We are snow, covered in dung.

If we are made in God's image, then we are made pure. It's our sin that covers our true selves in dung.

Of course God loves us too much to let us remain dirty. That's why God came to us in our form, to reconcile us to God. We have been made clean, by the Christ-event.

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I can already see my response turning into soteriological language that is outside the scope (although intertwined) of this thread. Nonetheless I was under the impression that you did not hold to OSAS (once-saved-always-saved). But I could be wrong. Just one question: Do you believe a person that was made clean by the Christ event can get completely dirty as if he was never cleaned? And if so, can a person who wishes to remain like that be in a relationship with God?

Victor said:

I can already see my response turning into soteriological language that is outside the scope (although intertwined) of this thread. Nonetheless I was under the impression that you did not hold to OSAS (once-saved-always-saved). But I could be wrong. Just one question: Do you believe a person that was made clean by the Christ event can get completely dirty as if he was never cleaned? And if so, can a person who wishes to remain like that be in a relationship with God?

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I think we're confusing the individual with the race of humanity here. It's not about me and you. It's about us together. My position is that the Christ-event placed all humanity in reconciliation to God. We, as a race, no longer have to worry about whether we are acceptable to God or not. We know we are. It is up to each individual to work out what that means for him or her, growing into that identity as being part of a group that has been reconciled to God.

I think those individuals that do not grow into that identity become covered with dirt. Even those of us that do grow still get dirty from time to time. But we are still worthwhile in God's eyes. God's grace is for all of us, and God's not going to be happy until we've all crossed the "finish line" together.

Humanity still has a long way to go before we, as a group, have fully lived into that identity. God's got eternity on God's side to wait for us at the door, until we make the turn in the road. Then, God will run to meet us, bring us in, put the finest robes on us, and give us a feast.

To answer your question about OSAS, I believe that I was saved 2000 years ago, when Christ became incarnate and died for humanity. I believe that salvation is always available to me, no matter how dirty I get. That's not an open invitation to go out and get dirty. Rather, it's a responsibility that is placed upon me to "toe the line." If I'm acceptable to God, I'd better live like I'm acceptable to God.

sojourner said:

So much of Christian energy and activity is spent in deciding who's in and who's out -- and then in keeping out those who "don't belong."

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Do you mean "NetDoc?"

sojourner said:

OK. I'll define my position very clearly for you. All humanity are God's children.

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By this do you mean that they are saved and on their way to heaven?

sandy whitelinger said:

By this do you mean that they are saved and on their way to heaven?

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I don't understand your question. "On their way to heaven?" Do you mean right now, or that a place is reserved for them when they die? What, precisely, do you mean by "saved?"

I believe that all humanity has been reconciled to God, and that all humanity stands in a state of grace. God has set a place at the table for each person.

sojourner said:

I don't understand your question. "On their way to heaven?" Do you mean right now, or that a place is reserved for them when they die? What, precisely, do you mean by "saved?"

I believe that all humanity has been reconciled to God, and that all humanity stands in a state of grace. God has set a place at the table for each person.

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That's not a Biblical position.

sandy whitelinger said:

That's not a Biblical position.

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Of course it's a Biblical position. It's a stance predicated upon a studied interpretation of the Biblical message.

sojourner said:

Of course it's a Biblical position. It's a stance predicated upon a studied interpretation of the Biblical message.

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The Biblical position is that you become a child of God by belief in His Son. John 1:12: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name..."

sandy whitelinger said:

The Biblical position is that you become a child of God by belief in His Son. John 1:12: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name..."

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That may be the way you interpret what you read. It's not the way I interpret what I read. To me, the Biblical position is that God created humanity, humanity fell from grace, and Jesus became incarnate to restore humanity to grace. That humanity now stands in a state of grace is evidenced by those who choose to respond to that grace by remaining faithful to God.

sojourner said:

That may be the way you interpret what you read. It's not the way I interpret what I read. To me, the Biblical position is that God created humanity, humanity fell from grace, and Jesus became incarnate to restore humanity to grace. That humanity now stands in a state of grace is evidenced by those who choose to respond to that grace by remaining faithful to God.

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I suppose thats what happens when you give scripture any old meaning you want. That passage (others as well) give a clear meaning as to the method of becoming a child of God. But, hey, good luck with what you think it menas.

when you give scripture any old meaning you want.

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This has nothing to do with giving scripture "any old meaning." It has to do with prayerfully and faithfully applying understanding to a very old and foreign document. Which isn't nearly as irresponsible as simply reading what's written on the page and assuming that it means exactly what you think it means.

sojourner said:

This has nothing to do with giving scripture "any old meaning." It has to do with prayerfully and faithfully applying understanding to a very old and foreign document. Which isn't nearly as irresponsible as simply reading what's written on the page and assuming that it means exactly what you think it means.

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There are too many verses pointing to to nescessity of believing on Christ in order to become a child of God to dismiss it as an error of translation.