Good Question

According to the scriptures everyone knows, but choose to suppress the truth for the sake of their own godlessness and wickedness ...

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Romans 1:18-20

InChrist said:

Except that, according to the scriptures no one is truly good, all fall short of goodness, so all are bad in the sense that everyone does wrong to one degree or another. Any bad person can be forgiven and made a new creation in Christ, thus inheriting eternal life and heaven.

Click to expand...

Thus why a lot of christians don't value honesty and decency; why bother when you can simply pray away your douchebaggery at the end of the day?

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Again, you make our case for us: What sort of imperfect god created such a horrific and imperfect system?

That's tantamount to abuse. Deliberately created things such that, innocent get infinite torture, but the extremely guilty, with a last minute "confession" get infinite reward?

That's messed up.

Click to expand...

Isn't it that God placed the first man and the first woman in paradise [the Garden of Eden]?
And isn't it true that God only have one order, one command to them - "don't eat that fruit or you will die"?
But a lot of people do not believe that, right? Because they believe their ancestors came from the apes.
Well, that is their ancestors, not mine.

Adam and Eve, fouled up that only rule - "don't eat that fruit or you will die", so they got evicted.
It was simple and perfect because God is perfect Deuteronomy 32:4
So they got kicked out of paradise into a world which they would toil, a world filled with danger and sufferings and death. Romans 5:12

During the time of the patriarch [Patriarchal age - Wikipedia]. God spoke to these chosen select few people [Adam to Jacob] setting the foundation of salvation of man. While the rest of mankind who were preoccupied with wickedness [ like Sodomy and Gonorrhea - like those in Sodom and Gomorrah - Wikipedia ], deserve what was in store for them. Genesis 6:5

During the time of the prophets [from Moses to Malachi]. God chose the ancient nation of Israel to be his and promise to send the Messiah. Israel did not honor the covenant made with them at Mount Sinai - they violated every commandments. How about the rest of the nations? The barbarians of Europe, the various African tribes, the various kingdoms of Asia, the Mesoamerican civilizations? How about them? The rest of the world were pagan and only Israel was chosen. 2 Kings 5:15

During the Christian era [from Jesus Christ to the present], God chose His Son to speak for Him. The Son made a new covenant making the old covenant obsolete. The new covenant is for the Jews, the Gentiles and for the future people [people of the ends of the earth] Acts 2:39. The Lord Jesus Christ established his church Matthew 16:18 Romans 16:16 . It is his church where man is to find rest, better promises and salvation. The rest of the world, is pagan and only the Church of Christ [Zion] was chosen. Ephesians 2:12

Is that abuse? Ezekiel 18

God is good, upright, just and perfect Deuteronomy 32:4
The human heart is evil all the time Genesis 6:5

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Agreed. Which is why we require proof-- do you have any? Have your god show up and speak for itself. Using intermediaries isn't enough. In fact? It's immoral to do so-- as this creates Special Favorites, which is beyond unfair.


Correct. So, get back to us, when you can have your god show up and make it's own case.

I do not listen to minions--- especially self-created ones.



See above. Have your god say, "Hi!" to the whole world.



That does not say what you just claimed it says. ooops!


Don't care what your claims are-- you have never actually proven they are legitimate.

I can quote Harry Potter books, and my quotes would be JUST as Legitimate.



So your god is Pure Evil, and Sadistic too? For creating these people without any possibility of Hope? They are born, live and die, JUST to satisfy the sadistic need of your god to fill his Infinite Torture Pit with bodies?

Whatever you may claim? You have imagined a very evil being here...


See? Pure-D sadistic Evil.

Click to expand...

What did God first create? Genesis 1:3
Was it evil? Genesis 1:4
Same is true who came to be the light. John 8:12
The only thing one should do is believe in the light John 12:46

Thus the only way to have hope is to be "in Christ" and not separate from Christ
Because the world, which is roughly 8 Billion in population and maybe 100 Billion dead - do not have God
Ephesians 2:12

Only the children of God know God
The world does not know Him.
1 John 3:1

Going back to the Eskimo and the priest - for as long as they are alive, there is hope
Hope to find the only true God and know Him.
It is no use in pride Psalm 10:4
It is no use questioning God Romans 9:20
No use berating the God who will judge all secrets of the heart Isaiah 29:16

MJFlores said:

Isn't it that God placed the first man and the first woman in paradise [the Garden of Eden]?
And isn't it true that God only have one order, one command to them - "don't eat that fruit or you will die"?

Click to expand...

No, he also ordered the two to leave the Garden of Eden.

But a lot of people do not believe that, right?

Click to expand...

And with good reason. See my remark above.

Because they believe their ancestors came from the apes.
Well, that is their ancestors, not mine.

Click to expand...

Nope. It's because the whole A&E story is too silly to believe.

Adam and Eve, fouled up that only rule - "don't eat that fruit or you will die", so they got evicted.
It was simple and perfect because God is perfect Deuteronomy 32:4

Click to expand...

Is that why he created evil; he was perfect?

During the time of the patriarch [Patriarchal age - Wikipedia]. God spoke to these chosen select few people [Adam to Jacob] setting the foundation of salvation of man. While the rest of mankind who were preoccupied with wickedness [ like Sodomy and Gonorrhea - like those in Sodom and Gomorrah - Wikipedia ], deserve what was in store for them. Genesis 6:5

During the time of the prophets [from Moses to Malachi]. God chose the ancient nation of Israel to be his and promise to send the Messiah. Israel did not honor the covenant made with them at Mount Sinai - they violated every commandments. How about the rest of the nations? The barbarians of Europe, the various African tribes, the various kingdoms of Asia, the Mesoamerican civilizations? How about them? The rest of the world were pagan and only Israel was chosen. 2 Kings 5:15

During the Christian era [from Jesus Christ to the present], God chose His Son to speak for Him. The Son made a new covenant making the old covenant obsolete. The new covenant is for the Jews, the Gentiles and for the future people [people of the ends of the earth] Acts 2:39. The Lord Jesus Christ established his church Matthew 16:18 Romans 16:16 . It is his church where man is to find rest, better promises and salvation. The rest of the world, is pagan and only the Church of Christ [Zion] was chosen. Ephesians 2:12

Click to expand...

So the Bible story goes, I guess.

Is that abuse?

Click to expand...

Is what abuse?

God is good, upright, just and perfect

Click to expand...

Until he makes a mistake of two:
Then he's imperfect, just like the rest of us.

The human heart is evil all the time Genesis 6:5

Click to expand...

Vs.

So obviously there are some whose heart isn't evil all the time. But if this is true, what gives? Oh yes, it's one of those Bible contradictions most believers are loath to admit to: "Read Genesis 6:5. but Stay away from Matthew 5:8"- OR- if you want to assert how pure of heart humans can be, Read Matthew 5:8. but Stay away from Genesis 6:5"

Cherry picking is so cool, ain't it.

Going back to the Eskimo and the priest - for as long as they are alive, there is hope
Hope to find the only true God and know Him.

Click to expand...

And when that hope runs out---the guy dies before hearing about god's sin/salvation program---it's off to hell you go old man. Heh! Heh!


.

MJFlores said:

Even if he skin a thousand walruses or ride an orca, that wouldn't help.
Even if he builds a palace sized igloo, he achieved nothing.

Please refer to Matthew 7:13
since I am prohibited to quote a religious message in this religious forum
I intend to comply with house rules

Click to expand...

Theres no rule against quoting a religious message.

Epic Beard Man said:

Indigenous cultures shouldn't be bothered period. If indigenous cultures are flourishing then why bother them?

Click to expand...

yeah....but...

the Jews crossed the river Jordan
and American settlers crossed the mid-west
and so forth and so on

it seems crossing borders and territories is a man made dilema

Father Heathen said:

Thus why a lot of christians don't value honesty and decency; why bother when you can simply pray away your douchebaggery at the end of the day?

Click to expand...

But God sees and will not be mocked ( Galatians 6:7). Ultimately those who practice hypocrisy will face Him He does value honesty, as well as sincere repentance, though it appears many "Christians" today may not.

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:5-10

We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 1 John 2:3-4

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.1 John 2:9

Skwim said:

No, he also ordered the two to leave the Garden of Eden.


And with good reason. See my remark above.


Nope. It's because the whole A&E story is too silly to believe.


Is that why he created evil; he was perfect?


So the Bible story goes, I guess.


Is what abuse?


Until he makes a mistake of two:

Genesis :6
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

1 Samuel 15:35
And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul; and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.
​

Then he's imperfect, just like the rest of us.


Vs.

"Matthew 5:8
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."
​

So obviously there are some whose heart isn't evil all the time. But if this is true, what gives? Oh yes, it's one of those Bible contradictions most believers are loath to admit to: "Read Genesis 6:5. but Stay away from Matthew 5:8"- OR- if you want to assert how pure of heart humans can be, Read Matthew 5:8. but Stay away from Genesis 6:5"

Cherry picking is so cool, ain't it.





And when that hope runs out---the guy dies before hearing about god's sin/salvation program---it's off to hell you go old man. Heh! Heh!


.

Click to expand...

A few days ago, some premium member sent me a PM telling me that I shouldn't quote bible text to an atheist because it is offensive. Told me the Forum Rule number which I believe he was reading between the lines. Now I see, an atheist who quotes the bible to me, I find that funny. But then again the guy who sent me a message is a Hindu. This really reminds me of a situation when a Christian, an atheist and a Hindu walks in a bar or some WWF match. Anyways, I find that day really weird.

If the A&E is hard to believe, then what is easy to believe?
Aliens re-engineered the Neanderthal and became Homo Sapiens
Humans are the lost tribe as depicted in Battlestar Galactica
Human came from the primordial pool
There is nothing to believe - that is a no brainer.

We are distancing away from the Eskimo, poor Eskimo. Did God create evil? No.
His creation made themselves evil.
It is like blaming the parents of Luis Garavito, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Chikatilo']Andrei Chikatilo, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy']Ted Bundy, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy']John Wayne Gacy[/URL][/URL][/URL]
Is it right blaming their parents or they became what they wanted to be?
The grief and the regret that the parents is the same grief and regret of the Lord God on mankind.

What is the reaction and the feeling of a mother when she hears her son say:

"Mama, just killed a man
Put a gun against his head
Pulled my trigger, now he's dead
Mama, life had just begun
But now I've gone and thrown it all away
Mama, oh oh
Didn't mean to make you cry
If I'm not back again this time tomorrow
Carry on, carry on, as if nothing really matters"
- Bohemian Rhapsody, Freddie Mercury 1975

I could have posted a music video of this but another guy sent me a PM telling me that showing videos on YouTube is considered spamming and advertisement.
Shiver me timbers, Skwim!

If you have a son like that, you would grieve and you would regret that you could have done something.
That feeling is not because the parent made a mistake but the grief and regret that it happened.
The issue is on the act and not the person.

That would address - 1 Samuel 15:35
What did King Saul commit that God regret making him king of Israel?
Disobedience 1 Samuel 15:11

That would address Genesis 6:6
What did mankind commit that God grieved creating them?
Great wickedness Genesis 6:5

Cherry picking?
There are no cherries where I am at. We have mangoes, papayas, bananas so I couldn't relate.
But I have seen bottled cherries and in fruit cocktails.

Did God create evil? No.
The first evil was from a cherub [angel] Ezekiel 28:14
He was created without sin but committed sin Ezekiel 28:15
And he was evicted because of his sin Ezekiel 28:16
Expelled to Earth Ezekiel 28:17

That is why I said we are our own making.
Like the cherub, he was created perfect until he fault was found in him, a sin which he himself committed.

lewisnotmiller said:

Theres no rule against quoting a religious message.

Click to expand...

With due respect - I was flagged for quoting the Bible.

I shouldn't quote the Bible if the person communicating is not a Christian, an Atheist or what have you.

It is a feeling, actually.

The staff felt this content was not in keeping with Rule 8 of our forums. In order to help you better understand why, here is a copy of Rule 8 for you to review:

8. Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching.

Please take a moment to read through this rule, as we will expect you to abide by this rule in the future. If you have any questions about the forum rules or staff actions, please create a thread in the Site Feedback forum. Threads you create there are visible only to yourself and the staff team, so we can discuss things confidentially.

Thank you for your cooperation,

-----------------------------------------------

A quote from the bible triggered that feeling.
1 Timothy 2:5

So instead of quoting, I rather referenced it and maybe that feeling would go away.
It's house rules, I'm just visiting so I have to comply with house rules.
It is strange but sometimes a cop would pull you over for no reason at all
Just show your license and registration so you can be on your way
If he issues you a ticket, just pay it

MJFlores said:

A few days ago, some premium member sent me a PM telling me that I shouldn't quote bible text to an atheist because it is offensive. Told me the Forum Rule number which I believe he was reading between the lines. Now I see, an atheist who quotes the bible to me, I find that funny. But then again the guy who sent me a message is a Hindu. This really reminds me of a situation when a Christian, an atheist and a Hindu walks in a bar or some WWF match. Anyways, I find that day really weird.

Click to expand...

I'm not an atheist.

.

MJFlores said:

With due respect - I was flagged for quoting the Bible.

I shouldn't quote the Bible if the person communicating is not a Christian, an Atheist or what have you.

It is a feeling, actually.

Click to expand...

So, I can't discuss anything about specific moderation, since that is against the rules.
But quoting a religious text isn't against the rules. Using it to proselytize is.

It's a fine line sometimes, which is why it requires 3 moderators to vote on any particular issue.

Anyways, all good, thanks for explaining the background. Your position makes more sense to me now.

lewisnotmiller said:

So, I can't discuss anything about specific moderation, since that is against the rules.
But quoting a religious text isn't against the rules. Using it to proselytize is.

It's a fine line sometimes, which is why it requires 3 moderators to vote on any particular issue.

Anyways, all good, thanks for explaining the background. Your position makes more sense to me now.

Click to expand...

Should I continue quoting the Bible or referencing the chapter and verse only?

If I could quote the Bible then what happens if another one say - I violated Rule 8 by quoting the bible?

You can check "the conversation" box of my account.
Whether it is unfair or not, what ever decision a moderator hands over, I just have to accept it.

Even posting old songs, let us say Elvis Presley song to elaborate the issue of "metaphor" was viewed as ADVERTISING or SPAMMING. Say what?

But rules are rules.
If a cop says "pull over"
I don't speed up but park on the shoulder and
Urban Dictionary: suck it up

Skwim said:

I'm not an atheist.

.

Click to expand...

ag·nos·tic
Dictionary result for agnostic
/aɡˈnästik/
noun
noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics

1. 1.
   a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
   synonyms: sceptic, doubter, questioner, doubting Thomas, challenger, scoffer, cynic; More
   unbeliever, disbeliever, nonbeliever;
   rationalist;
   rarenullifidian
   "he was an agnostic, but his notebooks reveal a kind of religious attitude to the universe"
   antonyms: believer, theist

adjective
adjective: agnostic

1. 1.
   relating to agnostics or agnosticism.
   synonyms: skeptical, doubting, questioning, unsure, cynical, unbelieving, disbelieving, nonbelieving, faithless, irreligious; More
   rationalist;
   rarenullifidian
   "a group of prominent agnostic scientists"
   antonyms: theist
   • (in a nonreligious context) having a doubtful or noncommittal attitude towards something.
     "until now I've been fairly agnostic about electoral reform"
   • Computing
     denoting or relating to hardware or software that is compatible with many types of platforms or operating systems.
     "many common file formats (JPEG, MP3, etc.) are platform-agnostic"

My apologies.

MJFlores said:

ag·nos·tic
Dictionary result for agnostic
/aɡˈnästik/
noun
noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics

1. 1.
   a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
   synonyms: sceptic, doubter, questioner, doubting Thomas, challenger, scoffer, cynic; More
   unbeliever, disbeliever, nonbeliever;
   rationalist;
   rarenullifidian
   "he was an agnostic, but his notebooks reveal a kind of religious attitude to the universe"
   antonyms: believer, theist

adjective
adjective: agnostic

1. 1.
   relating to agnostics or agnosticism.
   synonyms: skeptical, doubting, questioning, unsure, cynical, unbelieving, disbelieving, nonbelieving, faithless, irreligious; More
   rationalist;
   rarenullifidian
   "a group of prominent agnostic scientists"
   antonyms: theist
   • (in a nonreligious context) having a doubtful or noncommittal attitude towards something.
     "until now I've been fairly agnostic about electoral reform"
   • Computing
     denoting or relating to hardware or software that is compatible with many types of platforms or operating systems.
     "many common file formats (JPEG, MP3, etc.) are platform-agnostic"

My apologies.

Click to expand...

Thank you, but no apologies necessary.

.

Skwim said:

Nope. It's because the whole A&E story is too silly to believe.

Is that why he created evil; he was perfect?

So the Bible story goes, I guess.

Until he makes a mistake of two:

Genesis :6
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

1 Samuel 15:35
And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul; and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.
​

Then he's imperfect, just like the rest of us.

Vs.

"Matthew 5:8
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."
​

So obviously there are some whose heart isn't evil all the time. But if this is true, what gives? Oh yes, it's one of those Bible contradictions most believers are loath to admit to: "Read Genesis 6:5. but Stay away from Matthew 5:8"- OR- if you want to assert how pure of heart humans can be, Read Matthew 5:8. but Stay away from Genesis 6:5"

Cherry picking is so cool, ain't it.

And when that hope runs out---the guy dies before hearing about god's sin/salvation program---it's off to hell you go old man. Heh! Heh!
.

Click to expand...

As I see it, you hold a position of beliefs as a strainer and pour into it all the scriptures and when you strain out those scriptures that don't agree with your position, you ignore it.

vs

You put God's word as a stainer, put your beliefs in it and throw out what are wrong beliefs.

Henry Ford said: "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right". I think it has some application here.

PS... The story of A&E is not silly at all

Skwim said:

So if someone doesn't know about god and sin they go to hell. Gotcha

Think this is fair?

.

Click to expand...

Noone cares about God (not even God cares if people worship him). Sin is universal. An eskimo doesn't have to be christian to recognise right from wrong. Virtue is universal. Christianity just points out virtue, that's all. So the good eskimo won't go to hell, if he doesn't bow before christ.

syo said:

Noone cares about God (not even God cares if people worship him). Sin is universal. An eskimo doesn't have to be christian to recognise right from wrong. Virtue is universal. Christianity just points out virtue, that's all. So the good eskimo won't go to hell, if he doesn't bow before christ.

Click to expand...

No, that isn't all Christianity points out. It also points out the if you don't get with god's program, which includes the notion of sin and salvation, you'll end up in hell.


From the Catholic perspective:


From the Protestant perspective:





.

Skwim said:

No, that isn't all Christianity points out. It also points out the if you don't get with god's program, which includes the notion of sin and salvation, you'll end up in hell.


From the Catholic perspective:

To avoid Hell, it is necessary to obey the Church, the priests, one’s superiors, and one’s parents, even in little things.

To avoid Hell, it is necessary to be humble: dependant on God, making plans with reliance on His Will (“I will go here, if God wills it”, “I will do this, if God wills it”), praying without unceasing and giving thanks in all circumstances, mortifying oneself, accusing oneself of one’s sins, giving God the credit for all good things, thinking of others before oneself, being truthful and truly repentant in Confession, and changing one’s life after Confession.​

To avoid Hell, it is necessary to go to Confession and go to Mass, and receive Holy Communion as often as one goes to Mass.

Disobedience, pride, and neglientance are what cause many to go to Hell, and they lead to terrible sins, especially sins against the flesh. Obedience, humility, and charity are what save souls from Hell, and they lead to wonderful graces, especially purity of heart. The man who is dependant on God’s grace to do all things and trusts completely in His Mercy will never be sad, for God dose not disappoint: He will give much to the lowly man. Yet the man who is dependant on himself to do all things and trusts in himself will never be happy, for God dose not satisfy him: He will take much away from the proud man.
source

​

From the Protestant perspective:

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. —Romans 10:9-10, ESV
source​

And​

To be saved, a man must confess that Jesus is Lord, while acknowledging in his heart that Christ must have full rule over his life. This confession of Christ as Lord assumes that it is Christ who will work and fulfill His own righteousness within man, as man is unable to attain righteousness of his own accord.
source​

.

Click to expand...

These are priests' things, not God's.

syo said:

These are priests' things, not God's.

Click to expand...

Evidently then, you believe priests' have got it wrong. Fair enough.

.