The Christian Contradiction, An Example

joe1776 said:

When the baptism I attended was made part of the regular Protestant service, I was in the audience when the minister and a 20 year-old woman, who wanted to be a minister, performed a question and answer session.

The minister began by admitting that churches faced the problem of dwindling interest by the younger generation and wondered how his young protege might deal with it.

Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell. So, she explained that she would follow the teaching of Jesus and learn to love even atheists regardless of their beliefs. Both she and the minister then reinforced their message of unconditional love.

If either of them realized it, neither mentioned the contradiction in their message. They were both imagining that they were capable of a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the God they worshipped who would send those atheists to Hell to suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

Your thoughts?

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My main thought:

Whoever told you God would send atheists to hell for any reason?

That’s a bid pile of religious rubbish.

It’s actually impossible for God to send atheists to hell for ANY reason.
(I can make this statement because I can prove it using the Bible)

God actually does have a special place, though, for people who spread such lies about Him.

joe1776 said:

There is no doubt whatsoever that the decision to reject the Christian message of salvation is an act of free will. There is also no question that we should suffer the consequences of our mistakes or immoral acts.

However, the question on the table is: If we mistakenly reject Christianity, and if God loves unconditionally, would eternal punishment in Hell be a fair result?

My position is that Christianity can't take the position that Jesus teaches unconditional love and then, in the next breath, claim that God's love is conditioned upon the acceptance of Jesus as savior from the eternal punishment of Hell.

To put it another way, you can't offer Jesus as an exemplar of unconditional love while worshipping a god who acts more like a vengeful human king.

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Again... that looks more like a perspective to me.

The Dad loved the child unconditionally but they decide their destination.

I think the problem lies in the judgment call of, as you put it, "God's love is conditioned upon the acceptance of Jesus as savior from the eternal punishment of Hell".

I remember various stories of people on the way to Hell when they cried out to Jesus and were pulled out. Who really knows how God justly determines the heart?

As humans, we are placing ourselves in the position of deciding who is and who is not going when that is in the sole possession of God who knows the real heart decision and which can change in a second even after physical death, apparently.

What we do know is that God does love unconditionally and yet we still have the unconditional capacity to reject it. Not God's fault but ours.

Or, to put it in another way, there is an inheritance for everyone but you have to claim it. It is given with unconditional love yet we have the power to reject His unconditional love.

Not so much a vengeful human king but rather an ungrateful, spoiled and back stabbing people who then want to play the victim and say "It is God's fault I don't love Him".

Or, to put it the way Moses said:

Deut 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;... ...
therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

So... we have a plate to choose. A person chooses death and evil when the loving God, the Father, says "please choose life" and then we want to blame Him for our choice?

To me, it just doesn't sound right.

joe1776 said:

They were both imagining that they were capable of a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the God they worshipped who would send those atheists to Hell to suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

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The doctrine that God demoniacally tortures billions of immortal spirits for all eternity in a blazing sea of perpetual fire is a Satanic Antichrist mendacity that defames God.

As a God of justice and love, he would never create such a vicious and barbaric realm much less prescribe infinite punishment for a finite crime no matter how wicked.

Justice demands, nevertheless, that the evil be brought to account for their evil:


‘“As surely as I am alive,” declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that someone wicked changes his way and keeps living. Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why should you die?"

"When I say to someone wicked, ‘Wicked one, you will surely die!’. . . He will die as a wicked man because of his own error."-Ezekiel 33:11, 8

joe1776 said:

When the baptism I attended was made part of the regular Protestant service, I was in the audience when the minister and a 20 year-old woman, who wanted to be a minister, performed a question and answer session.

The minister began by admitting that churches faced the problem of dwindling interest by the younger generation and wondered how his young protege might deal with it.

Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell. So, she explained that she would follow the teaching of Jesus and learn to love even atheists regardless of their beliefs. Both she and the minister then reinforced their message of unconditional love.

If either of them realized it, neither mentioned the contradiction in their message. They were both imagining that they were capable of a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the God they worshipped who would send those atheists to Hell to suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

Your thoughts?

Click to expand...

The same old question, in different phraseology

I love dogs, I have five. Yet, if one became rabid, I would destroy it.

Does destroying it means I ceased loving it ?

Because I love it, should I let it live on, till it eventually dies of the disease ?

God love all humans. However, humanity is out of harmony with Him, and He has provided one, and only one, way to return to harmony with him, through Christ.

If a person chooses to not take advantage of thus opportunity, there is an inevitable result of that choice.

God will respect that choice, though He loves the chooser.

They will ultimately cease to exist

joe1776 said:

When the baptism I attended was made part of the regular Protestant service, I was in the audience when the minister and a 20 year-old woman, who wanted to be a minister, performed a question and answer session.

The minister began by admitting that churches faced the problem of dwindling interest by the younger generation and wondered how his young protege might deal with it.

Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell. So, she explained that she would follow the teaching of Jesus and learn to love even atheists regardless of their beliefs. Both she and the minister then reinforced their message of unconditional love.

If either of them realized it, neither mentioned the contradiction in their message. They were both imagining that they were capable of a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the God they worshipped who would send those atheists to Hell to suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

Your thoughts?

Click to expand...

The same old question, in different phraseology

I love dogs, I have five. Yet, if one became rabid, I would destroy it.

Does destroying it means I ceased loving it ?

Because I love it, should I let it live on, till it eventually dies of the disease ?

God love all humans. However, humanity is out of harmony with Him, and He has provided one, and only one, way to return to harmony with him, through Christ.

If a person chooses to not take advantage of thus opportunity, there is an inevitable result of that choice.

God will respect that choice, though He loves the chooser.

They will ultimately cease to exist

Punishment and love do not contradict each other.

joe1776 said:

When the baptism I attended was made part of the regular Protestant service, I was in the audience when the minister and a 20 year-old woman, who wanted to be a minister, performed a question and answer session.

The minister began by admitting that churches faced the problem of dwindling interest by the younger generation and wondered how his young protege might deal with it.

Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell. So, she explained that she would follow the teaching of Jesus and learn to love even atheists regardless of their beliefs. Both she and the minister then reinforced their message of unconditional love.

If either of them realized it, neither mentioned the contradiction in their message. They were both imagining that they were capable of a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the God they worshipped who would send those atheists to Hell to suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

Your thoughts?

Click to expand...

Doesn’t Jesus teach to love all men even our enemies? That looks a lot like unconditional love to me so I don’t see the contradiction.

The clergy have taken versus out of context and taught exclusivism and superiority to Christians but that’s not what Jesus taught. He taught to love all men and to be all embracing. That’s what Jesus taught from my reading of the Gospels.

joe1776 said:

When the baptism I attended was made part of the regular Protestant service, I was in the audience when the minister and a 20 year-old woman, who wanted to be a minister, performed a question and answer session.

The minister began by admitting that churches faced the problem of dwindling interest by the younger generation and wondered how his young protege might deal with it.

Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell. So, she explained that she would follow the teaching of Jesus and learn to love even atheists regardless of their beliefs. Both she and the minister then reinforced their message of unconditional love.

If either of them realized it, neither mentioned the contradiction in their message. They were both imagining that they were capable of a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the God they worshipped who would send those atheists to Hell to suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

Your thoughts?

Click to expand...

Where does Jesus say atheists will go to hell? I think that hell is farness from God not a place. So if we disbelieve in Jesus we condemn ourselves to the hell of disbelief which leads us to follow a moral and ethical code far inferior to Jesus which has caused wars, sorrow, unhappiness and bloodshed( a hell on earth of our making) but to my knowledge hell is not a place but a state of mind that we create.

loverofhumanity said:

Where does Jesus say atheists will go to hell? I think that hell is farness from God not a place. So if we disbelieve in Jesus we condemn ourselves to the hell of disbelief which leads us to follow a moral and ethical code far inferior to Jesus which has caused wars, sorrow, unhappiness and bloodshed( a hell on earth of our making) but to my knowledge hell is not a place but a state of mind that we create.

Click to expand...

I come from arguably one of the most secular countries in the world. I think in Sweden believers in a personal God are about 20%. Still a lot, but we are improving (if it wasnt for immigration from Muslim countries).

I don’t see any of this unhappiness, sorrow, bloodshed you are talking about.

Ciao

- viole

loverofhumanity said:

Where does Jesus say atheists will go to hell? I think that hell is farness from God not a place. So if we disbelieve in Jesus we condemn ourselves to the hell of disbelief which leads us to follow a moral and ethical code far inferior to Jesus which has caused wars, sorrow, unhappiness and bloodshed( a hell on earth of our making) but to my knowledge hell is not a place but a state of mind that we create.

Click to expand...

Can anyone think of anyone righteous who went to hell __________
Where does the Bible say dead Jesus went to hell ________________-> Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Since dead Jesus went to hell the day he died, then what is biblical hell _____________
The world teaches a religious-myth hell as being Scripture but it is not.
I find the Bible's hell is simply mankind's stone-cold temporary grave for the sleeping dead, Not burning dead.
In order for the dead to fell pain the dead would have to be conscious.
What we can learn from the Bible is that the 'dead know nothing' according to Ecclesiastes 9:5.
So, dead Jesus would have been in an unconscious or sleeping state while he was in biblical hell.
Thus, it is No wonder Jesus taught the dead are sleeping at John 11:11-14.
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach ' sleep in death' .
( Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18 besides Ecclesiastes 9:5 )
Since the dead are sleeping according to Jesus, then all dead, atheist or otherwise, sleep in death.
When King James translated the word "Gehenna" into English as hell fire that put the flames in hell.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and Not kept burning.
So, Gehenna is a fitting word for being: destroyed forever.
This is in harmony with Psalms 92:7 that the wicked will be 'destroyed forever' and Not burning forever.

joe1776 said:

...............Her answer began with her personal goal: She didn't want to go to Hell. So, she explained that she would follow the teaching of Jesus and learn to love even atheists regardless of their beliefs. Both she and the minister then reinforced their message of unconditional love.
If either of them realized it, neither mentioned the contradiction in their message. They were both imagining that they were capable of a higher grade of love (unconditional) than the God they worshipped who would send those atheists to Hell to suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus as their savior.
Your thoughts?

Click to expand...

I find we are to love our enemies ( Agape' love which is love based on principle )
One way that love is shown is by proclaiming God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 impartially to everyone we can,
just as Jesus instructed at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 to take the good news or gospel message to all nations.
So, in all nations live people of all beliefs and non-beliefs. God is Not partial so in that sense love without condition.
On the other hand, we are all free, if we wish, to act responsibly toward God. God's love has conditions.
For example: those who follow Jesus would obey his New commandment of John 13:34-35
We are to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
Since biblical hell comes to a final end as per Revelation 20:13-14, then there could be No eternal suffering.
Everyone in the Bible's hell is ' delivered up ' (meaning resurrected out of hell, the Bible's temporary grave)
Then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.

DavidMcCann said:

According to Matthew (11.23-24), Jesus cursed the people of Capernaum and threatened them with hell because they didn't accept him. He also spoke of hall having eternal fire. It would seem that if you don't believe in a burning hell, you don't believe that the gospels contain the teachings of Jesus.

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If you are reading the King James version then yes the English word hell does appear at Matthew 11:23-24.
Since Matthew was Not originally written in English, then we need to know what is biblical hell _________
What I find Jesus was saying was: brought down to the ' grave ' (biblical hell being mankind's grave)
So, it would be more endurable for the land or the people of Sodom and Gomorrah then it would be for those false religious leaders. Those 'wicked religious leaders' would be ' destroyed forever ' - Psalms 92:7.
That coming ' day of judgement ' is ' resurrection day ' meaning 'Jesus' coming millennium-long day' of governing over earth when there will be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous as per Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
The Gospel accounts do contain the teachings of Jesus, however, the teachings of Jesus and the false-clergy teachings are Not the same thing.
False clergy teach a religious-myth hell-fire teaching as being Scripture.
There is No fire in biblical hell because the 'dead know nothing' according to Ecclesiastes 9:5
Know nothing but unconscious sleep as per Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18
This is why Jesus also taught ' sleep in death ' at John 11:11-14.

KenS said:

OK... maybe my analogy is somewhat week...

Let's make it different:

A dad tries to stop his son/daughter from taking drugs. He loves her, tries to stop her, and does everything in his power to get him/her not to go that route... but he/she takes drugs anyway, get's addicted and lives a life of hell...

Did the Dad send him/her there? Or was it a self-will choice? Did he love his child?

Self determination and will has its blessings but it also has its consequences. Dad (God) had nothing to do with it... it was the persons choice.

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If we make the analogy completely in line with Christian theology, then:

- the Dad designed and made the drugs. He chose their properties, including their addictive nature and the suffering they cause.
- he could have stopped his child's dealer, but didn't (and some say that he arranged with the dealer to try to sell drugs to his child as a way to test his child).
- the "life of hell" isn't from the effects of the drug; it's from Dad continually beating his child for being an addict.

Gerry said:

My main thought:

Whoever told you God would send atheists to hell for any reason?

That’s a bid pile of religious rubbish.

It’s actually impossible for God to send atheists to hell for ANY reason.
(I can make this statement because I can prove it using the Bible)

God actually does have a special place, though, for people who spread such lies about Him.

Click to expand...

Gerry, you are not a mainstream Christian (not that there is anything wrong with that). My OP refers to the traditional mainstream belief.

shmogie said:

The same old question, in different phraseology

I love dogs, I have five. Yet, if one became rabid, I would destroy it.

Does destroying it means I ceased loving it ?

Because I love it, should I let it live on, till it eventually dies of the disease ?

God love all humans. However, humanity is out of harmony with Him, and He has provided one, and only one, way to return to harmony with him, through Christ.

If a person chooses to not take advantage of thus opportunity, there is an inevitable result of that choice.

God will respect that choice, though He loves the chooser.

They will ultimately cease to exist

Click to expand...

I think you've used a false analogy when you compare someone's rejection of Christianity to a sick, rabid dog.

Moreover, when you kill a rabid dog, you do it mercifully. You don't subject it to eternal suffering (the traditional Christian belief).

loverofhumanity said:

Where does Jesus say atheists will go to hell? I think that hell is farness from God not a place. So if we disbelieve in Jesus we condemn ourselves to the hell of disbelief which leads us to follow a moral and ethical code far inferior to Jesus which has caused wars, sorrow, unhappiness and bloodshed( a hell on earth of our making) but to my knowledge hell is not a place but a state of mind that we create.

Click to expand...

The OP points out a contradiction in the thinking of Christians who see Christ as an exemplar of unconditional love and the traditional mainstream belief about Hell. You are offering a different Christian position, not the traditional one.

Maximilian said:

The doctrine that God demoniacally tortures billions of immortal spirits for all eternity in a blazing sea of perpetual fire is a Satanic Antichrist mendacity that defames God.

As a God of justice and love, he would never create such a vicious and barbaric realm much less prescribe infinite punishment for a finite crime no matter how wicked.

Justice demands, nevertheless, that the evil be brought to account for their evil:


‘“As surely as I am alive,” declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that someone wicked changes his way and keeps living. Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why should you die?"

"When I say to someone wicked, ‘Wicked one, you will surely die!’. . . He will die as a wicked man because of his own error."-Ezekiel 33:11, 8

Click to expand...

Your position on Hell is different than the traditional Christian position that I refer to in the OP. So, the contradiction I mentioned doesn't apply.

I'll simply point out that if a Loving Creator exists, and I do allow that possibility, then the best evidence of it is conscience. And my conscience doesn't classify the rejection of JW message as "wicked."

My conscience, like that of most people, also doesn't inform me that a killing in self-defense or in a just war, like the Second World War, is wicked.

viole said:

I come from arguably one of the most secular countries in the world. I think in Sweden believers in a personal God are about 20%. Still a lot, but we are improving (if it wasnt for immigration from Muslim countries).

I don’t see any of this unhappiness, sorrow, bloodshed you are talking about.

Ciao

- viole

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Although Sweden is a wonderful nation I don’t think it’s realistic to say that you don’t have your fair share of problems such as violence and integration.

https://www.politico.eu/article/swe...ty-undoing-peaceful-self-image-law-and-order/

joe1776 said:

The OP points out a contradiction in the thinking of Christians who see Christ as an exemplar of unconditional love and the traditional mainstream belief about Hell. You are offering a different Christian position, not the traditional one.

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I wonder what the actual Christian traditional view is as there are over 40,000 sects each claiming to be the right one. I always refer to Jesus Himself not the clergy or individuals interpretations.

joe1776 said:

Your position on Hell is different than the traditional Christian position that I refer to in the OP. So, the contradiction I mentioned doesn't apply.

I'll simply point out that if a Loving Creator exists, and I do allow that possibility, then the best evidence of it is conscience. And my conscience doesn't classify the rejection of JW message as "wicked."

My conscience, like that of most people, also doesn't inform me that a killing in self-defense or in a just war, like the Second World War, is wicked.

Click to expand...

You make a good point. But conscience can be wrong and unreliable too I think.