The 5 Points of Calvinism

Like the Westminister Catechism, The 5 Points of Calvinism are almost like a guideline or summary of Christian belief/principle.
They are:
1. Original Sin (Total Depravity)
2. Unconditional Election (predestination)
3. Limited Atonement
4. Irresistable Grace
5. Perseverence of the Saints

I would like anyone who has knowledge of these 5 points to be involved in this thread, or if you have any points or questions to make make them, but please lets discuss this in order, starting with Original Sin.

My question is, what biblical evidence (NIV) is their to support these 5 points of calvinism, starting with Original Sin ?

My question is, what biblical evidence (NIV) is their to support these 5 points of calvinism, starting with Original Sin ?

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Just a quick question, do you mean we have to use the NiV to discuss this?

noob said:

Like the Westminister Catechism, The 5 Points of Calvinism are almost like a guideline or summary of Christian belief/principle.
They are:
1. Original Sin (Total Depravity)
2. Unconditional Election (predestination)
3. Limited Atonement
4. Irresistable Grace
5. Perseverence of the Saints

I would like anyone who has knowledge of these 5 points to be involved in this thread, or if you have any points or questions to make make them, but please lets discuss this in order, starting with Original Sin.

My question is, what biblical evidence (NIV) is their to support these 5 points of calvinism, starting with Original Sin ?

Click to expand...

I'd say that all five, particularly in the Calvinist context, are outright heresies derived by the distortion of Scripture and the exaggeration on the peculiarly western Augustinian strand of theology. I see basis for none of them in the plain text of Scripture and, though I know you will not accept this as a valid source, their utter contradiction by the Holy Tradition of the Church.

James

1 The 5 Points of Calvinism are almost like a guideline or summary of Christian belief/principle.
2 or 3 of 'em r at least points. But hardly complete or a summary

what biblical evidence Original Sin (Total Depravity)?
i may not b sure what the gentleman means by "total depravity." But anyway:
Just as through one man sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were constituted sinners...
I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me

Unconditional Election (predestination)?
He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

Limited Atonement?
Perhaps i'm unaware of what this purports to mean. It appears both absolutely false 'n absolutely disgustin.
Since: He Himself's the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for those of the whole world

Irresistable Grace
This's both true and untrue for me. Sorry to say. My experience. Don't grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption.
With several unbelievers, the gentleposter's above-phrase also's inaccurate.
Gentiles also walk in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance which's in them, because of the hardness of their heart, who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lasciviousness to work all uncleanness in greediness...
Not that they can't turn to the Lord if they choose

Perseverence of the Saints
What's that s'pose 2 mean? That they persevere? That some don't? That all need to?
If the latter: thas correct. In your endurance you will possess your souls.
Take care

noob said:

Like the Westminister Catechism, The 5 Points of Calvinism are almost like a guideline or summary of Christian belief/principle.
They are:
1. Original Sin (Total Depravity)
2. Unconditional Election (predestination)
3. Limited Atonement
4. Irresistable Grace
5. Perseverence of the Saints

I would like anyone who has knowledge of these 5 points to be involved in this thread, or if you have any points or questions to make make them, but please lets discuss this in order, starting with Original Sin.

My question is, what biblical evidence (NIV) is their to support these 5 points of calvinism, starting with Original Sin ?

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I would love to know what this is all about. It is like a foreign language to me.

It does not resonate with my beliefs at all.

okay okay sorry. Maybe they are not a guideline nor summary. but they are a source of much debate.

2 or 3 of 'em r at least points. But hardly complete or a summary

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Hey writer.. could you include citations or references next time. I would like to read them myself.

Just a quick question, do you mean we have to use the NiV to discuss this?

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sorry my bad. You don't have to use the Niv.

Original sin, or Total Depravity, is the idea that we as humans inherit the sin of Adam, and that we are, by nature sinners. That means as a baby you are born a sinner.

I really don't know what to say about Original Sin. I want to disagree with it. I think it is unfair and unjust to be be born a sinner just because Adam sinned. But than again we are all sinners and nobody is a perfect human being who has never sinned against God.
Does anybody know any biblical passages that support the idea of Original Sin?

Terrywoodenpic said:

I would love to know what this is all about. It is like a foreign language to me.

It does not resonate with my beliefs at all.

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Well that's good news.

I'm sure you know what Calvinism is, right? John Calvin... Geneva... the burning of Michael Servetus at the stake, using green wood so it goes extra slow... <shudder>

The five points of Calvinism or TULIP are the five main points of doctrine for Calvinists.

T - total depravity - Humans are so far gone that we are unable to do anything of ourselves to affect our own salvation. Even if we thought we were trying to be good, we're so removed from goodness that we would just be deluding ourselves.

U - unconditional election - God chooses who will be saved (elected), pretty much on His Divine whim. If you are not already on that list, there is nothing you can do to change His mind, no matter how sincere you are no matter how many good words you do (because of total depravity).

L - limited atonement - Only a very few people are going to heaven; everyone else is gonna fry.

I - irresistable grace - A denial of free-will. If God choses you to be saved, you wouldn't be able to reject it even if you wanted to.

P - perseverance of the saints - If you happen to be one of the lucky ones that God chooses for salvation, lucky you, you can't be "unchosen." There's nothing you can do that would cause you to lose your seat in heaven.


Loverly theology, ain't it? That's why it's not so popular any more. Tho I still run into the odd Calvinist occasionally.

6 citations
4's 2nd para: Paul's Romans 5:12, 19. David's Psalm 51:5
3rd para: his Ephesians 1:4-5.
4th: John's 1 John 2:2.
5th para: Paul's Eph 4:30, 17-19.
Las: Jesus in Luke's Luke 21:19

7 Does anybody know any biblical passages that support the idea of Original Sin?
The fact o' it, beside my personal experience: Romans 5:12, 19; Psalm 51:5

Terrywoodenpic said:

I would love to know what this is all about. It is like a foreign language to me.

It does not resonate with my beliefs at all.

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JamesThePersian said:

I'd say that all five, particularly in the Calvinist context, are outright heresies derived by the distortion of Scripture and the exaggeration on the peculiarly western Augustinian strand of theology. I see basis for none of them in the plain text of Scripture and, though I know you will not accept this as a valid source, their utter contradiction by the Holy Tradition of the Church.

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Well, it's nice to see that an Anglican, an Eastern Orthodox Christian and a Latter-day Saint can all agree that these five doctrines are not what Jesus taught!

I'm curious as to who on RF, if anyone, actually accepts these doctrines.

I've studied it alot from which I have greatly benefitted. Some of my favourite authors were calvinists. I started a debate with one once confident that I could show Him but he embarrassed me and I couldn't answer him at the time, however i'm not yet a calvinist, basically because of limited atonement and irresistable grace, i don't agree with what they mean by total depravity. And unconditional election seems incompatible with a God who is not willing that any should perish.

There are tons of Calvinists out there and it is a growing belief system again.

I just footnote the OP real quick with one footnote:

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_points_of_Calvinism

Well, it's nice to see that an Anglican, an Eastern Orthodox Christian and a Latter-day Saint can all agree that these five doctrines are not what Jesus taught!

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Maybe just maybe Thats because you guys don't know what jesus taught.


"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. "

noob said:

Maybe just maybe Thats because you guys don't know what jesus taught.


"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. "

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Well, noob, perhaps you can answer this for me: If Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of all mankind, how come you and I are being held responsible for what Adam did? When Jesus suffered so that your sins and mine might be forgiven, did He somehow miss Adam's sin in the process? As Adam's posterity, we have each inherited from him a sinful nature, or the propensity to sin. But if you can tell me what sin a newborn baby is guilty of, I'll give you a bunch of frubals. If you can tell me why a loving Father in Heaven would punish an infant for something he had no control over, I'll throw in a few coins for good measure.

If Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of all mankind, how come you and I are being held responsible for what Adam did?

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Because of Adam's sin, he was condemned to die. Because of Adam's sin, was separation from God. We as humans now, have a limited time on earth, and we too will die.

Jesus' atonement for the sins of mankind means that we can live now. Jesus took the responsibility of what Adam did by dying on the cross, thus he died for our sins. Now, if we believe in Jesus, (John 3:16), we can go to heaven instead of suffering in hell.

That's what the bible teaches.

We inherited death. And we by nature are sinners.

But if you can tell me what sin a newborn baby is guilty of, I'll give you a bunch of frubals

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I don't know. What sin is a newborn guilty of? I think the bible means that death will come to all of us, even infants, who have not broken a command.

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

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If you can tell me why a loving Father in Heaven would punish an infant for something he had no control over

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God is loving but also just. As to the question of whether it is just for God to punish an infant, I don't even know if God punishes infants. I know that all who sin will die. Does the bible say anything about that? Please reply if anybody knows.

noob said:

Because of Adam's sin, he was condemned to die. Because of Adam's sin, was separation from God. We as humans now, have a limited time on earth, and we too will die.

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We've had many discussions on RF regarding original sin. But in terms of this thread may I point out that Calvin's doctrine of "Total Depravity" was not just a concept of original sin. It was much stronger than that. The Catholics believe in original sin, and yet they don't believe in total depravity. Calvin basically said that there is nothing good about us whatsoever. Not just that we're born with an inclination to sin. Not just that we inherit the guilt of Adam. But that when Adam fell, our link to God was completely and utterly severed.

noob said:

Because of Adam's sin, he was condemned to die. Because of Adam's sin, was separation from God. We as humans now, have a limited time on earth, and we too will die.
Jesus' atonement for the sins of mankind means that we can live now. Jesus took the responsibility of what Adam did by dying on the cross, thus he died for our sins. Now, if we believe in Jesus, (John 3:16), we can go to heaven instead of suffering in hell.
That's what the bible teaches.
We inherited death. And we by nature are sinners.
I don't know. What sin is a newborn guilty of? I think the bible means that death will come to all of us, even infants, who have not broken a command.
God is loving but also just. As to the question of whether it is just for God to punish an infant, I don't even know if God punishes infants. I know that all who sin will die. Does the bible say anything about that? Please reply if anybody knows.

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This is a very good example why I do not believe in a literal Bible.
It can be interpreted in many ways, from complete nonsense to clear enlightment.

What a mythical Adam has to do with anything, is certainly not something I would base my understanding of Christianity on.

Calvanism to me, is a complete NO No.

Total Depravity says that man can do no good Godward, he can be good to his fellow men but the natural man who is dead in tresspasses and sins can do no good that will please God because it is not of faith, this depravity is so complete that the natural man can not come to God and exercise saving faith in Him until he is first soveriegnly regenerated (born again) only then can he believe and be saved. Such a person is one who God, based on no merits in the person elected before he was ever born to become a child for His own good pleasure.

Not just that we inherit the guilt of Adam. But that when Adam fell, our link to God was completely and utterly severed.

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Yes. And than Jesus came and died for our sins, and the link is re established througH Jesus Christ.

noob said:

Yes. And than Jesus came and died for our sins, and the link is re established througH Jesus Christ.

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Not according to Calvinism. According to Calvinism, Jesus' death had no effect on our nature. The only thing that Jesus' death accomplished was to appease God's righteous anger against us for the sin of Adam. But we are still cut off from God, totally depraved.