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Is the World out of Control or Not?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
...All we need to do is learn to control our environment, rather than our environment controlling us. And in time, we will do that.
In the end, we may be the longest living species. And we have enough time to go extra-terrestrial.

I find people have taken on such BIG ' Earth-Day issues ' to No avail.
They ' preach ' we have to do something to control pollution, etc. or doomed.
I suppose that 'doom' comes from man putting the hands of man's Doom's Day Clock set close to striking midnight.
There is such a broad spectrum list of issues including environment, diseases, etc., issues too BIG to solve.
Sound more like Earth-Day Worship over God.
In the past 6,000 plus years man has learned to litter and pollute his environment.
Even modern technology is a two-edged sword: Atomic Energy / Atomic Bomb.
I can agree that in the end we ' will ' be the longest living species.
This is because Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will be the one who will usher in global Peace on Earth.
That is when there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
In other words, their "love" in trying to save others, is not truly genuine. It may seem like being compassionate, on the surface, but it truly isn't about helping others, yet
What's it about, then?
Did they ask for money? No!

But they spent their time, and money (on gas, wear and tear on car, etc.), to bring you the "Good News of the Kingdom" (Matthew 24:14)....what God's Kingdom will do for mankind, is good news.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Since there is both a ' minor ' and a MAJOR fulfillment to Matthew 24:21-22, then who is it that forgot about verse 21 because the ' great tribulation ' of Revelation 7:14 did Not happen in the first century.
Today is the day, or time frame of Luke 17:28 being fulfilled in front of our eyes.
Matthew 24:27 did Not happen in the first century, but Revelation chapter 6 is for our day.
Thus, the ' modern ' tribulation - Matthew 24:29 - bridges from a long period of time since Jesus' day.
The ' immediately ' of verse 29 is meaning immediate in connection to Matthew 24:21 and Revelation 7:14.
Also, Matthew 25:31-33,37,40's coming ' time of separating ' is Not a failed prophecy.
Of course it is a failed prophecy. Just the form that it was given in alone makes it one. Excessively vague prophecies are by nature failed since sooner or later some event will occur that makes it "fulfilled". That the one part that was clear failed merely makes it doubly failed.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What's it about, then?
Did they ask for money? No!
Is asking for money the only other possible motive people have other than acting out of love?

Let's examine some possibilities. Let's take the one I gave in that post that you seem to have not seen. I gave the example of someone who goes to a therapist, has gotten a couple of insights into himself, sees himself as "fixed", or "saved" as the case may be for the religionist in this analogy, and now he sets out to save others, fix their problems, come to them with the solution he has found, because he is under the subtle illusion that he is fixed now. I then explicitly stated, "What all this is however, is a form of subtle avoidance of doing the real work that lays yet ahead for them."

What this means is that the motive is that by going out and knocking on doors, trying to "save" others, it's really just about themselves trying do something to fix others, motivated by a form of avoiding the deeper work necessary for a true spiritual realization in their lives. Ironically, in "serving God", they are actually avoiding God. It is spiritual avoidance, masquarding itself as "good works", or "witnessing".

That's one motive. Other motives might be a great need to inflate one's sense of self worth by "saving souls". If they can be a really productive soul-winner, they shall have many crowns laid up for them, not the least of which is the one they can get by how others will see them as some "spiritual warrior". Spiritual Pride is a way of subtly masquerading grandstanding, piling up expensive cars for the admiration of others, while is is all based on personal insecurities. Again, as in the other case, it is a form of spiritual avoidance too, because it takes "being good" as the source of self-worth and self-esteem.

There are of course other possible motives people may have behind these things, all of which are not truly genuinely out of pure unselfish love. In any organization with groups of people going out knocking on doors trying to "save the lost", individuals will be motivated by a spectrum of emotional and psychological needs, two examples of which I just gave. Just because someone appears to be doing a "good thing", does not mean the reasons are out of genuine love. I'd argue that only in the rarest of cases, might that possibly be true.

But they spent their time, and money (on gas, wear and tear on car, etc.), to bring you the "Good News of the Kingdom" (Matthew 24:14)....what God's Kingdom will do for mankind, is good news.
People spend huge amounts of their time and resources for personal gain all the time.

Personally, someone knocking on your door to tell you about their religion, is a simply just a salesman selling you a product. Many products for sale may be beneficial, but make no mistake, they are trying to get you as their customer. It's not about you as a person, ultimately. It's about selling a product that they have packaged and marketed you can learn more about by coming to one their storefronts, which are in effect their churches.

Adding:

To put a finer point on this in relation to the OP, it's like a insurance salesman talking about the horrible things that could happen to you, and you'd not be ready financially to deal with them. A fire, water damage, termites, boils, locusts plagues from God, apocalypse, antichrists, headless horseman and a parade of possible terrors, not the least of which would be an Angry God set to punish the wicked. All of that business is exploiting fear. Instead of home or life insurance, its God insurance.

But the problem core problem for this with a religion is that since Love is the exact opposite of fear, to use fear to sell Love, it cannot possibly result in Love. "Perfect love casts out all fear". Then why come to my door talking about fear?
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
When was the world in control?
If anything, I would argue that the world is more in control now than ever.
And that is exactly the problem.

It's in the control of billions of killer apes. Apes whose ability to think abstractly, along with their clever digits and vocalizing, have given us huge power of control.
Unfortunately, it's often used in the service of the instincts that are the products of a billion years of evolution. We sometimes learn to do better, but we are still born with the tendencies towards greed, lust, and murderous tribalism. The instincts that resulted in our forebears surviving to spread their genes.

Not to provide a fulfilling life, we must learn that. And frankly, we just aren't all that smart or perceptive.
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
And we have enough time to go extra-terrestrial.
This strikes me as a sciencey version of The Rapture.

The belief in a highly implausible, even miraculous, rescue from ourselves and our unsustainable ways. A higher power will take care of the results of the behavior we choose now. With the implications that we needn't change too much now. A very comforting belief, however poorly founded in reality.
Tom
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
This strikes me as a sciencey version of The Rapture.

The belief in a highly implausible, even miraculous, rescue from ourselves and our unsustainable ways. A higher power will take care of the results of the behavior we choose now. With the implications that we needn't change too much now. A very comforting belief, however poorly founded in reality.
Tom

Not at all, Sir.

With the AI revolution just around the corner, it will become possible to have AI bots transport frozen human embryos to other universes. With nuclear powered ships, and with advanced algorithms, we can not only transport frozen life for hundreds of years until another earthlike planets are discovered by the AI, but the AI can also incubate, and raise the toddlers. They can teach them our history, and tell them how to survive on their own, help them discover metals, and produce their own functioning world.

...I believe human life is worth preserving. Possibly even eternally.
 
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Cooky

Veteran Member
In fact, it could be that we are the master race of all future space life, that will evolve in their own directions over the millennias.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
THE year 2017 began with a dismal proclamation by the scientific community. In January a group of scientists declared that the world just got closer to the worst catastrophe ever. Using the symbolic Doomsday Clock to illustrate mankind’s proximity to a global disaster, scientists moved the clock’s minute hand forward by 30 seconds. The Doomsday Clock is now set at merely two and a half minutes to midnight—nearer to a global catastrophe than at any time in over 60 years!

In 2018, scientists plan to evaluate again how close we are to the end of the world as we know it. Will the Doomsday Clock still signal an impending and unprecedented catastrophe? What do you think? Is the world out of control? You might find the question somewhat difficult to answer. After all, even experts are divided on this subject. Not everyone believes in an inevitable doomsday.

Is the World out of Control or Not?

What do you believe?
years ago.....a two hour event on tv.....
ten know-it-alls
each with his own scenario

but the little guy in the middle....with only a five minute portion

The earth has enough chemistry to support 9billion people
that's it

almost there
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If I may address these points....

Personally, someone knocking on your door to tell you about their religion, is a simply just a salesman selling you a product. Many products for sale may be beneficial, but make no mistake, they are trying to get you as their customer. It's not about you as a person, ultimately. It's about selling a product that they have packaged and marketed you can learn more about by coming to one their storefronts, which are in effect their churches.

The fact is, we are not selling anything. We offer a message of "good news", which we believe is from God.

Jesus likens his return to "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37-39) From that perspective, the apostle Peter calls Noah a "preacher of righteousness", (2 Peter 2:5) so all the time that Noah was constructing the ark, he was preaching about God's intentions to bring that wicked world to an end. What good news did Noah have? What was he "selling"? What is the lesson?

The ark was a huge structure that could easily have carried more humans, but no one believed him. His small family out of the world of that time, were the only survivors. So again Jesus said to expect a similar scenario. We are again living at the end of another age according to the Bible. (Matthew 24:3)

To put a finer point on this in relation to the OP, it's like a insurance salesman talking about the horrible things that could happen to you, and you'd not be ready financially to deal with them. A fire, water damage, termites, boils, locusts plagues from God, apocalypse, antichrists, headless horseman and a parade of possible terrors, not the least of which would be an Angry God set to punish the wicked. All of that business is exploiting fear. Instead of home or life insurance, its God insurance.

I prefer to relate it to emergency service workers, going house to house to deliver a warning of a coming natural catastrophe. Do they exploit fear? Can people ignore them with impunity? What are they selling?

They cannot force anyone to believe them or to even act on their warning, but no one will be able to say that the warning was not given. Noah spent decades constructing his vessel, so it isn't that there was not enough time to warn the people. They simply chose not to believe him. And when popular opinion reigns, people feel confident that if everyone else is ignoring the warning then they can too. How many would have lamented their decision, do you think? Where would their confidence have gone? How many lived to regret their decision?

But the problem core problem for this with a religion is that since Love is the exact opposite of fear, to use fear to sell Love, it cannot possibly result in Love. "Perfect love casts out all fear". Then why come to my door talking about fear?

Love is exactly the reason why God must rid the earth of those who are destroying it. (Revelation 11:18)
Those who heed God's warnings are not fearful, but supportive of his actions. Jesus told us to go out with the message, which is the only testimony or witness that people living at this period time will get. (Matthew 24:14) The main thrust of the message is "good news"....it is only "bad news" for those who find themselves on the other side of it.

The message itself is what people either accept or reject.....no one is standing over anyone with a big stick....but no one will be able to say that they did not receive the warning. What they do with it, is up to them. Everyone has the same choice.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
It is spiritual avoidance....
There are multiple facets to our witnessing work...
One is helping others to apply the Scriptures in their own lives, experiencing the benefits that come with it such as developing a close relationship with Jehovah Himself...that’s the essence of being spiritual!

Just because someone appears to be doing a "good thing", does not mean the reasons are out of genuine love

What were Jesus’ reasons, you think? Did He make money? We don’t, either.
Why do we keep on, although most are apathetic and some are just mean?
There is no stronger motivator than love.
Then why come to my door talking about fear?

For 20 minutes, they talked about fear? I don’t think you really were hearing them. It’s all about teaching people how to develop a loving relationship w/ Jehovah, so they can avoid being fearful when His storm comes upon the Earth.
People spend huge amounts of their time and resources for personal gain all the time.

I almost missed this.

(Looking back up the thread, I just now saw @Deeje ’s reply to you. Her words I think fit better than mine. )


Look, we care about all people. That includes you. The gain can be all yours.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
THE year 2017 began with a dismal proclamation by the scientific community. In January a group of scientists declared that the world just got closer to the worst catastrophe ever. Using the symbolic Doomsday Clock to illustrate mankind’s proximity to a global disaster, scientists moved the clock’s minute hand forward by 30 seconds. The Doomsday Clock is now set at merely two and a half minutes to midnight—nearer to a global catastrophe than at any time in over 60 years!

In 2018, scientists plan to evaluate again how close we are to the end of the world as we know it. Will the Doomsday Clock still signal an impending and unprecedented catastrophe? What do you think? Is the world out of control? You might find the question somewhat difficult to answer. After all, even experts are divided on this subject. Not everyone believes in an inevitable doomsday.

Is the World out of Control or Not?

What do you believe?

Nope as there's nothing wrong with the world, it's the people in the world that's out of control
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are multiple facets to our witnessing work...
One is helping others to apply the Scriptures in their own lives, experiencing the benefits that come with it such as developing a close relationship with Jehovah Himself...that’s the essence of being spiritual!
That is the stated purpose, but I honestly question that those who do this are purely selfless.

You see, once upon a time in my life, way back, I was in a group that I could compare to the Jehovah's Witnesses, from a certain point of view. The thrust to make converts, witnessing, sharing the Gospel, etc., was a lot alike, but not in any high-level administrative program to do so, such as you see in the JWs. But we were so sure of ourselves as well, that we had the real truth and everyone else was wrong. They were born around the same time in American history as the JWs, under similar circumstances. Some revelation of restored truth, bringing the restored truth to the ages in the ends times, etc. Same lady, different day attire to attract customers, otherwise known as converts. ;)

Why do we keep on, although most are apathetic and some are just mean?
There is no stronger motivator than love.
Oh yes there is! Ego! :) That is true. Unless someone has experienced truly dying to the ego-self, then that and sex are the two biggest motivators. As long as the thing is based on some "reward" system, it's ego-driven. What is the real reason you do this? Because you are "supposed to" because that's what "saved" people do? You don't have to answer that.

For 20 minutes, they talked about fear?
No, actually, I talked most of the time! :) It was great. They shared a little of their thoughts, and I shared mine and they mostly listened. Though they of course couldn't agree because it's not inline with the standard doctrine, one could not deny the truth of Love, despite how I framed it. I knew they wouldn't understand the basis behind it, but I think I had hoped that they might be able to see that Light exists in others, whom their church would view as outside of God's Truth. I think that was done, whether they could cognitively reason it at that point. Love exists bright as the noonday sun, in those they would consider "lost".

And that, is the answer to what motivated Jesus. "Greater faith have I not seen in all of Israel!", cried Jesus of the Roman Centurion, or as the religious of his day would have been perceived him as "the lost".


I don’t think you really were hearing them. It’s all about teaching people how to develop a loving relationship w/ Jehovah, so they can avoid being fearful when His storm comes upon the Earth.
But you're saying right here, that a fearful God is sending a storm their way! That is what I'm talking about.

How can you preach love, while packaging it in the most possible form of dread fear there could possibly be? God destroying your world. What a horrible, terrifying thought. I don't see how that can lead someone to understand the nature of Divine Love, if the face you present is terror. "Yes daddy, I love you, please don't destroy me!" That's not Love, in the least.

Look, we care about all people. That includes you. The gain can be all yours.
Yet, you disfellowship and shun those who leave your ranks. That's not Love. That's not Compassion. That's something else. Agree?

The reason I ended up leaving that group was because the persistent repetition of the verse in my head as I looked at claims versus words and actions, "By their fruit you shall know them". Claim any restored truth or correct reading of scripture you want. "By their fruit you shall know them."
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
1. Most of the news we have is actually good news. Right now, at this moment, things are better than they have ever been. We live in a time of *relative* world peace. I know you are saying, "WHAT????" But think about things 1000 years ago, or even last century. Nations were constantly at war with each other. Today, there are NO nations at war with each other -- we have learned that it is better for business if we don't make war. Sure there are civil wars, and wars with non-governmental agencies such as ISIS, but that's a far cry from WWI and WW2. Secondly, ALL forms of violent crime is down in our major cities, from assualt to rape to murder, according to FBI statistics. Literacy is up world wide, which means that job skills are better and fewer people are living in abject poverty. Modern democracy with its emphasis on human rights is voluntarily spreading around the world little by little. Modern Medicine has increased everyone's lifespan and quality of life. Life has been made more comfortable by technological advances.

2. There are seeds that have been planted that are growing into problems greater than we will be able to handle unless we deal with things immediately. Among these problems are climate change, and the various problems associated with overpopulation (water and food shortage, species extinction, flooding, environmental pollution, etc.) Automation cannot be stopped, and cultural changes must be put into places to assure the health and well being of the significant minority permanently put out of work.

3. There are certain events that simply happen every now and again over time in the history of the earth due to the ebb and flow of nature. Some occur with general frequency and others are completely random. With all these apocalyptic events, the question is not "if" but "when." We must have plans in place for them. I am speaking of events such as the explosion of the mega-volcano under Yellowstone, the next Great Earthquake along the San Andreas fault in California, the Earth getting hit by an asteroid, the next deadly Flu Pandemic or other worldwide pandemic, etc.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If I may Windwalker.....

That is the stated purpose, but I honestly question that those who do this are purely selfless.

You see, once upon a time in my life, way back, I was in a group that I could compare to the Jehovah's Witnesses, from a certain point of view. The thrust to make converts, witnessing, sharing the Gospel, etc., was a lot alike, but not in any high-level administrative program to do so, such as you see in the JWs.

Since preaching the Kingdom message was a command from Jesus, I am not sure why you think it isn't just based on obedience to that command. (Matthew 28:19-20) After all, if I claim to be a follower of Christ, then I owe him my obedience. If I love people like Jesus did, then I am under obligation to warn them of God's intentions so that they can take the necessary action to avoid their own demise. If Jesus likens this period of time to the days of Noah, then I can clearly see the similarity. The world is again saturated with violence and immorality...not just in real life, but in all facets of entertainment as well. Can you find many movies or TV shows that don't feature either violence or immorality....or both?

But we were so sure of ourselves as well, that we had the real truth and everyone else was wrong. They were born around the same time in American history as the JWs, under similar circumstances. Some revelation of restored truth, bringing the restored truth to the ages in the ends times, etc. Same lady, different day attire to attract customers, otherwise known as converts.

Being sure of ourselves is called confidence. We are confident because we live our faith. It isn't something we DO...it is WHAT we are....24/7. What motivates eight and a half million people in every nation on earth to use their free time walking their neighborhoods looking for those who may respond to the Kingdom message?
What is the pay-off?...other than to see someone who was confused and hopeless, gain that confidence and join us in the search? Its what Jesus did and he told us to do the same. (Matthew 10:11-15)

Unless someone has experienced truly dying to the ego-self, then that and sex are the two biggest motivators. As long as the thing is based on some "reward" system, it's ego-driven. What is the real reason you do this? Because you are "supposed to" because that's what "saved" people do? You don't have to answer that.

I think I already answered that.

If an earthquake hit and it wiped out all communication but I I knew that a tsunami was coming and I failed to warn my neighbors when I had no excuse not to, how could I live with myself? We believe that something greater than the worst tsunami in history is coming and that, like the flood of Noah's day, it will leave no survivors unless people are evacuated to a certain location of safety.....

1) Is it wrong to want to warn people and save their lives?

2) Is it out of some kind of ego trip that I would do this?

Who are you to question my motives, just because you questioned your own?

No, actually, I talked most of the time! :) It was great. They shared a little of their thoughts, and I shared mine and they mostly listened. Though they of course couldn't agree because it's not inline with the standard doctrine, one could not deny the truth of Love, despite how I framed it. I knew they wouldn't understand the basis behind it, but I think I had hoped that they might be able to see that Light exists in others, whom their church would view as outside of God's Truth. I think that was done, whether they could cognitively reason it at that point. Love exists bright as the noonday sun, in those they would consider "lost".

I guess Jesus covered this in Matthew 7:21-23?

He also said...
"The lamp of the body is the eye. If, then, your eye is focused, your whole body will be bright. 23 But if your eye is envious, your whole body will be dark. If the light that is in you is really darkness, how great that darkness is!"

Just as well Jesus knows the kind of light we reflect.

And that, is the answer to what motivated Jesus. "Greater faith have I not seen in all of Israel!", cried Jesus of the Roman Centurion, or as the religious of his day would have been perceived him as "the lost".

You think Jesus doesn't know who belongs to him today? He can read hearts and minds, as he demonstrated with the Pharisees. Jesus is directing the preaching work, as he said he would. It was to be done right up to the end of the present system of things. (Matthew 24:14) So who is doing it? Actions speak louder than words, don't they?

But you're saying right here, that a fearful God is sending a storm their way! That is what I'm talking about.

Its true, according to the Bible.....would you rather we didn't tell you or anyone else? :shrug:

How can you preach love, while packaging it in the most possible form of dread fear there could possibly be? God destroying your world. What a horrible, terrifying thought. I don't see how that can lead someone to understand the nature of Divine Love, if the face you present is terror. "Yes daddy, I love you, please don't destroy me!" That's not Love, in the least.

On the contrary, I see it as the ultimate act of love to rid the world of those who don't want God in their lives and who have no respect for his laws or his property. That is what got us into this mess in the first place. Whether we like it or not, God is the one who dictates what is to be done here on this earth. He tells us what is acceptable to him and what isn't.

The Creator has allowed each one of us to make a choice about our worship. We are judged on that choice.
If Jesus likened the world circumstances of his return to the days of Noah...then here we are again. (Matthew 24:37-39) Just as the people of Noah's day chose not to take any notice of Noah's preaching, so the people of today feel safe ignoring our message too. God left it up to the people to decide whether or not to believe him and act on his warning. It isn't there in the Bible as a warning example for nothing. (2 Peter 2:4-6)

Yet, you disfellowship and shun those who leave your ranks. That's not Love. That's not Compassion. That's something else. Agree?

No, because to agree is to disagree with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles he mentored.

Paul wrote..."In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.” (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

There can be no toleration of any of these things unrepentantly. Jehovah forgives in a large way, as long as we are repentant, but those who offend God by their actions with no remorse will be expelled from the congregation. That is how God shows love for the ones who do not offend him. He has given authority to the shepherds to judge those "inside" the congregations, while he judges those outside. Either way...there is judgment.....like it or not.

The reason I ended up leaving that group was because the persistent repetition of the verse in my head as I looked at claims versus words and actions, "By their fruit you shall know them". Claim any restored truth or correct reading of scripture you want. "By their fruit you shall know them."

Which is why I chose to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses over 40 years ago. Having come out of the church system myself, the difference was very clear to me. I don't expect perfection from my spiritual family any more than Jesus expected perfection from his own apostles. But the 'fruitage' I saw was enough to convince me that these people were very different to the people of my former church....and I loved the difference. You either belong in Jehovah's family or you don't.
No one can come to the Son without an invitation from the Father anyway. (John 6:44) So God is choosing us as much as we think we are choosing him. If we want to follow our own way of thinking, then God will let us. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) He knows who belongs to him and who doesn't. Its really that simple....but we must give everyone the opportunity to either accept or reject the message. (Matthew 10:11-15) That way, their destiny is their own choice...no one else's.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
Years ago a couple of JWs told me that our adopted Down's Syndrome son, now nearly 34 but then 16 months old, would have been better off dead than have had the blood transfusion, which saved his life. I frogmarched that evil pair off our property. A cult which believes people are better off dead than have a blood transfusion is SICK! :mad:
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Nope as there's nothing wrong with the world, it's the people in the world that's out of control
I agree.

To me, this is the real Problem of Evil. The fact that humans are still being born with the violent instincts of our nonhuman ancestors, greed and lust and murderous tribalism, plagues us.

Either we are the products of undirected evolution or God deliberately makes us that way.

Tom
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
On the contrary, I see it as the ultimate act of love to rid the world of those who don't want God in their lives and who have no respect for his laws or his property. That is what got us into this mess in the first place. Whether we like it or not, God is the one who dictates what is to be done here on this earth. He tells us what is acceptable to him and what isn't.

The Creator has allowed each one of us to make a choice about our worship. We are judged on that choice.
If Jesus likened the world circumstances of his return to the days of Noah...then here we are again. (Matthew 24:37-39) Just as the people of Noah's day chose not to take any notice of Noah's preaching, so the people of today feel safe ignoring our message too. God left it up to the people to decide whether or not to believe him and act on his warning. It isn't there in the Bible as a warning example for nothing. (2 Peter 2:4-6)



No, because to agree is to disagree with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles he mentored.

Paul wrote..."In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.” (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

There can be no toleration of any of these things unrepentantly.
This is what I heard that was taught by the loving JW brothers which is that when someone leaves or is being put under notice to be ignored it was always because of sin. It was never explained to the obedient ones that the reason some people leave or are disfellowshipped is because of a difference of opinion about JW doctrine or about talking about his or her disagreement.


Jehovah forgives in a large way, as long as we are repentant, but those who offend God
I think you mean that they have offended the JW governing body.
by their actions with no remorse
and how can a person who disagrees with JW present "light" have remorse if he or she is actually right to disagree?
will be expelled from the congregation.
so to keep the JW govenring body in power.

That is how God shows love for the ones who do not offend him.
No! God can not get offended. Or maybe God is a fool, in your opinion. This is what God has us to know according to The New World Translation of the Bible
9 Do not be quick* to take offense,+ for the taking of offense lodges in the bosom of fools.

He has given authority to the shepherds to judge
I think you mean the interpretation of Bible Scripture has given the authority. I think you might have heard of some brothers who, according to you, were given their authority to be shepherds by God but who did more harm than good. So, how can you ever say they were placed there by God?


...... He knows who belongs to him and who doesn't. Its really that simple....but we must give everyone the opportunity to either accept or reject the message. (Matthew 10:11-15) That way, their destiny is their own choice...no one else's.
But, why can't you see the many people who will never become Jehovah's Witnesses because they obey God too? Psalms 146:3 Honest to God, I understand that an organization requires order so there have to be people to keep order, but keeping order and speaking what they call words of God are not the same.

Please look at it this way.

One way to see it is that the brothers are present to keep the order so that all can learn in a peaceful setting.

Or, your way, they are present to obey for what you must think and do to please God.

You make them out to be gods!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Years ago a couple of JWs told me that our adopted Down's Syndrome son, now nearly 34 but then 16 months old, would have been better off dead than have had the blood transfusion, which saved his life. I frogmarched that evil pair off our property. A cult which believes people are better off dead than have a blood transfusion is SICK! :mad:

We would never tell anyone that they were better off dead than receiving a medical treatment....so I am hoping that perhaps you misunderstood them.

Looking back over 30 years ago, things have definitely changed in the medical profession's attitude towards blood management. We do not tell people what to do with their own children. Just because we refuse blood transfusions, doesn't give us the right to tell others they can't do whatever is right according to their own conscience.

However it has been proven over the last few decades that the dangers of blood transfusions far out weigh the benefits. Bloodless surgery and treatments are gaining ground as they see the benefits of using alternative therapies.

For Media | National Blood Authority
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If I may Windwalker.....
Certainly. I can tell by the detail of your response that you are quite well-scripted in their doctrine. I respect the effort that goes into that.

Since preaching the Kingdom message was a command from Jesus, I am not sure why you think it isn't just based on obedience to that command. (Matthew 28:19-20) After all, if I claim to be a follower of Christ, then I owe him my obedience. If I love people like Jesus did, then I am under obligation to warn them of God's intentions so that they can take the necessary action to avoid their own demise.
I have no problem with the injunctions for Christians to let their Light shine before the world, which is the great commission. But "to warn them of God's intentions so that they can take the necessary action to avoid their own demise," does not do that. It is not letting the light of Joy, and Love shine forth. It's peddling fear to make converts.

I can pretty much summarize at the outset that to warn people about God, and that they better convert, or else, which is what you just said amounts to, that they should "avoid their own demise," in your words, is NOT an invitation of Love. It makes people come to God because they are afraid he'll destroy them. That is NOT Love. That is Fear. To come to God out of fear, is not a response to Love. It's about self-preservation. It's not about Love at all. There is no sugar-coating that.

I'll continue.....

If Jesus likens this period of time to the days of Noah, then I can clearly see the similarity. The world is again saturated with violence and immorality...not just in real life, but in all facets of entertainment as well. Can you find many movies or TV shows that don't feature either violence or immorality....or both?
This reading of what Jesus taught is just a rationalization for peddling fear. There are many ways to understand what Jesus' meant in this, but "go tell people to convert or I'll destroy them", is inconsistent with the Love that Jesus teaches. That Love is always an invitation, not a threat and a promise to escape their own demise, as you put it.

Being sure of ourselves is called confidence. We are confident because we live our faith.
No it's not. I do not believe either of what you just said. Being "sure of ourselves", can easily be understood as arrogance. It's looking to a set of beliefs as being "right", and then measuring yourself against this standard in order to look in the mirror and say, "I measure up". This is not God. At all.

Confidence, in God, not in yourself, is to say, "I do not know if any of what I believe is true, but none of that matters because I am not saved by beliefs. I rest in the Spirit, and trust in Love, without any understanding." Now that is Faith. That is confidence. Not in "ourselves", but in Spirit, and unknowing.

It isn't something we DO...it is WHAT we are....24/7.
If you found out today everything you believed was false, would you still have faith in God? Yes, or no? I would like an honest answer to this, if you would.

What motivates eight and a half million people in every nation on earth to use their free time walking their neighborhoods looking for those who may respond to the Kingdom message?
I gave several possible reasons to Hockycowboy, and I could offer more as well. As many personal motives as their are people. It's not hard to think of them.

If an earthquake hit and it wiped out all communication but I I knew that a tsunami was coming and I failed to warn my neighbors when I had no excuse not to, how could I live with myself?
Again, these are just rationalizations for peddling fear. That's not how, or why people should come to God. They come because they are drawn by Love, not driven to religion by fear. That is not what Jesus taught.

Who are you to question my motives, just because you questioned your own?
Have you examined your own motives, deeply? One can't easily answer that question, BTW. There are always deeper layers hiding behind what we like to tell ourselves. Try looking at it the way God would, without any masks we like to present to others and ourselves. Go deep enough, and you'll find selfish motives. They are there, unless you have been burned in the fires of the soul before the throne of God. They are there.

I guess Jesus covered this in Matthew 7:21-23?

He also said...
"The lamp of the body is the eye. If, then, your eye is focused, your whole body will be bright. 23 But if your eye is envious, your whole body will be dark. If the light that is in you is really darkness, how great that darkness is!"

Just as well Jesus knows the kind of light we reflect.
I understand that as shine, not "reflect". So you are saying you see that other faiths who shine this Light, are God's? Or do they need to convert to your particular version of faith? Are only those of your group, "saved"?

Its true, according to the Bible.....would you rather we didn't tell you or anyone else? :shrug:
God would rather you demonstrate Love, rather than peddling fear. Coming to God out of fear, does not lead to Love. It leads to being happy you'll survive. It has nothing to do with being transformed out of a desire for God alone, without any personal reasons behind it, such as saving your skin.

On the contrary, I see it as the ultimate act of love to rid the world of those who don't want God in their lives and who have no respect for his laws or his property.
I cannot begin to tell you how not God's Love what you said is. I honestly don't know what to say, other than, look within your heart. Is that really God? It sounds like something you want, to "get rid" of those who threaten you. That's highly immature in faith, and completely lacks an understanding of Divine Love.

That is what got us into this mess in the first place. Whether we like it or not, God is the one who dictates what is to be done here on this earth. He tells us what is acceptable to him and what isn't.
What I am hearing here is the Strict Father version of God. He "dictates", rather than "invites". This is an austere ruler of the household, who whips disobedient children. This is not the God that Jesus taught. It is not God. God is Love. Not LAW. "Love, is the fulfillment of the law".

I'll leave it there for the moment. I'll just say, I have experienced that Divine Love of God directly. None of the spirit of what you are saying here, is consistent with that. It comes from human fear.
 
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