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Biblical Slavery - How Could A Loving God Condone It?

Stanyon

WWMRD?
I love when some Caucasians use this "blame Africans as well" argument:

Here is a map of modern day slavery, do you find it odd that the vast majority of slaves are concentrated in African and in Muslim majority nations?
This map shows where the world’s 30 million slaves live. There are 60,000 in the U.S. - The Washington Post

Slavery in Africa Is Alive, Well and Ignored | HuffPost Canada

Shameful and striking: Slavery is alive and beating in the Middle East | Al Bawaba
 
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Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Here is a map of modern day slavery, do you find it odd that the vast majority of slaves are concentrated in African and in Muslim majority nations?
This map shows where the world’s 30 million slaves live. There are 60,000 in the U.S. - The Washington Post

I find it funny you mention only one continent which is Africa but according to your source:

"The rate of slavery is also alarmingly high in Haiti, in Pakistan and in India, the world's second-most populous country. In all three, more than 1 percent of the population is estimated to live in slavery."

Stop trying to continually demonize Africa as if other nations aren't practicing it.
 

Stanyon

WWMRD?
I find it funny you mention only one continent which is Africa but according to your source:

"The rate of slavery is also alarmingly high in Haiti, in Pakistan and in India, the world's second-most populous country. In all three, more than 1 percent of the population is estimated to live in slavery."

Stop trying to continually demonize Africa as if other nations aren't practicing it.

Don't point out the obvious facts that slavery is alive and well in many African nations and in Muslim majority countries and the fact that those countries are reported to have the highest concentrations of modern day slaves in the world.
- got it!
 

Stanyon

WWMRD?
Telling people to love their enemies is stupid too!

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Remté

Active Member
ISIS has completely bastardized Islam.. and most of them are uneducated and drug addicts or drunks.
I wouldn't blame ISIS for that. People choose to educate themselves about the subject or not. For some reason those who choose not to also choose to run their mouths about it. :shrug:
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Don't point out the obvious facts that slavery is alive and well in many African nations and in Muslim majority countries and the fact that those countries are reported to have the highest concentrations of modern day slaves in the world.
- got it!

Right but you forgot India which has the highest or second highest number of people in the world. That nap was dark brown as well so what do you say about India being up there with sex trafficking?
 

Remté

Active Member
How is that germane to the reality of Islam's evil?
It's germane to evaluating your sense of reality. It doesn't seem to have a very strong base. Someone thought that perhaps asking some questions that make you evaluate your process of thinking would help fix that base. They were overly optimistic obviously.
 

Stanyon

WWMRD?
Right but you forgot India which has the highest or second highest number of people in the world. That nap was dark brown as well so what do you say about India being up there with sex trafficking?

India, the country with the second largest Muslim population in the world after Indonesia?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
An Atheist how has never personally perlustrated the Holy Scriptures is going to decide what Christianity is and who actually exemplify it?

Yes. I define Christian for myself. I use one of the commonest definitions available, which is apparently the one that people who tell us how many Christians there are in the world use - if call yourself Christian and believe it, then you are one. Nothing need be exemplified. No particular behavior is required, and no behavior disqualifies one. There are no true Christians or false ones - just Christians.

I realize that Christians quibble among themselves attempting to disqualify one another for not being sufficiently Christlike or for holding a particular doctrine like the worshiping saints, but that isn't relevant to the unbeliever any more than doctrinal differences between Shia and Sunni Muslims are relevant to the non-Muslim when deciding who is a Muslim. Nor are the criticisms that Muslims offer one another about who is a true Muslim.

So you can't actually prove God does not nor cannot exist

That depends what you mean by "God." If you mean any deity or deities, then you are correct, although the point is irrelevant, since there is no need to prove that gods do not or cannot exist. Nor leprechauns, nor vampires, and all for the same reason. There are no empiric disproofs of the existence of any of these, nor need there be. It's sufficient to live as if none of these things exist until a good reason can be provided to do otherwise.

But if by "God" you mean a specific god, it may be possible to rule out its existence logically, that is, if it is logically impossible for it to exist as described, it doesn't exist. For example, one fairly popular god is said the be perfect, but still managed to create what it considered a defective race of creatures that it regretted creating and which it felt the need to nearly exterminate. That is, we are told about a perfect yet imperfect god - a logical possibility according to the Law of Noncontradiction, which informs us that nothing can be in both of two mutually exclusive states at the same time.

How about a god that is said to possess and grant free will, but also knows in advance everything that will transpire? Those are mutually incompatible qualities as well. That god also doesn't exist.

But then why are you Atheist and not Agnostic?

Most atheists are both - agnostic and atheist, or agnostic atheists. I include myself among them. It's an apt description of a person who does not believe in any gods, but also does not claim to have a way to rule out the possibility - a very sensible position for a critically thinking rational skeptic.

Some theists tend to get testy at this kind of usage. They will attempt to force others to conform to their preferred usage, but to no avail, since nobody has power over how others choose to use language, not even the lexicographers, whose job is to find out how people are using words and reporting it in their dictionaries.

No kidnapping means no forced labor means no slavery.

No kidnapping doesn't mean no slavery. It means no kidnapping. You forgot the buying and selling people that others might have kidnapped, which doesn't seem to be forbidden. You'd think that a god that is said to be moral perfection would include an admonition not try to own people somewhere in his very long list of proscriptions that included what fabrics not to mix, but nothing on slavery.

What do you suppose the following means? From Numbers 30:

10 All their cities in the places where they lived, and all their encampments, they burned with fire, 11 and took all the spoil and all the plunder, both of man and of beast. 12 Then they brought the captives and the plunder and the spoil to Moses, and to Eleazar the priest, and to the congregation of the people of Israel, at the camp on the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho.


That sounds like kidnapping to me.

Why else do you think Jesus was brutally murdered despite being the greatest man who had ever lived?

Here's another claim that doesn't bear close scrutiny. Why do we keep reading this? I'm assuming that Jesus was a historical figure who actually spoke the words and did the deeds attributed to him except the magical stuff like being born of a virgin, raising the dead, etc.. Is what remains still the greatest man who ever lived, or are the miracles required to be considered that.

Because without the walking on water and similar feats, and being in the right place at the right time to have others build a religion around you, the life of Jesus seems pretty ordinary to me. I know dozens of people whose lives are as exemplary or more so than that of an itinerant preacher who really didn't do much but wander and exhort people to abandon unholy practices and return to a more original understanding and devotion to the Hebrew scripture with a few modifications of no significance to anybody outside the religion.

Without Paul and Constantine, who would have ever heard of Jesus? What evidence would there have been that He lived? Probably about as little as there is for the thousands of other people doing the same thing, but with nobody to preserve and disseminate their words, and also leaving nothing behind. How is that a great man?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Believe it or not, Christ Jesus actually prophesied this would happen:

"Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" -Matthew 7:22, 23 (Emphasis mine.)

This is a fine example of low quality prophecy. It is nonspecific and predicts nothing unexpected. And, of course, it can convince nobody that its author had special knowledge of the future.

High quality prophecy is unambiguous, specific, and detailed - often specifying time and place. It predicts things not commonplace nor expected. It is all accurate, that is, not mixed with errors. The prophecy must precede that which was predicted, but cannot be self-fulfilling.

Maybe an example of high quality prophecy will help to illustrate.

There was a movie called Frequency some years back in which Dennis Quaid's character’s son contacts his father from his father's future by ham radio. To convince his father that he, the son, really is calling him from the father's future - from 1998 back to 1969 - the son discusses the outcome of game five of what is for the father the as-yet unfinished 1969 World Series, which the father is watching live in 1969 on TV in a local pub :

"Well, game five was the big one. It turned in the bottom of the 6th. We were down 3-0. Cleon Jones gets hit on the foot - left a scuff mark on the ball. Clendenon comes up. The count goes to 2 and 2. High fastball. He nailed it. Weis slammed a solo shot in the 7th to tie. Jones and Swoboda scored in the 8th. We won, Pop."

Then the father watches it happen on TV.

That's high quality "prophecy." That's a convincing knowledge of future events, once fraud such as a tape-delayed broadcast of an already played game is ruled out. Extremely specific and unexpected, and accompanied by no error. Biblical prophecy like the example you provided just can't compare to that. It doesn't convince.

The prophets of science also outperform biblical prophecy. Early last century, Einstein predicted that gravity bends light, something that turned out to be correct, but was not known to be true at the time, nor expected. And he provided specifics on how much it would bend. A clever experiment involving distant starlight grazing by the edge of the eclipsed sun on its way to earth demonstrated that the sun caused a deviation in the path of that distant starlight causing the star to appear to be in a position in the sky in which it was known not to be, Einstein also accurately predicted to what degree the curving of the starlight would displace the apparent position of the star, that is, how far from the star's know position its apparent position would be.

That's high quality prophecy.

The Big Bang theory predicted that because there had been a time in the early universe's past when it cooled enough to allow electrons to join protons and neutrons and form neutral atoms, we should find the ghost remnant of the decoupling of light from matter that then occurred, a faint electromagnetic radiation coming from every direction in space at a fixed intensity and wavelength ought to be present in our universe. Once again, this was unexpected. A few years later, the cosmic microwave background was found, and it was at the precise frequency (temperature) predicted.

That's also high quality prophecy. Note the specificity and the highly unlikely nature of the prediction. Compare that with what you provided - some day, people will come to me claiming to know me and I will disavow them. As I said, vague and trivial.

The recent find of the Higgs boson at precisely the energy predicted, and with the other characteristics predicted (charge, spin, parity) is the latest triumph in scientific prophecy. So great was the scientific community's and its underwriters’ confidence in science and its ability to prophecy, and incredibly large, powerful, and expensive device, the Large Hadron Collider was built to find the particle, which was right where it was predicted to be.

More high quality prophecy specifying details of something

Even so, scientist do not claim to possess superhuman knowledge, and do not offer their prophecies and their confirmations to be evidence of more than quality thinking by human beings, not divine knowledge. If believers are presenting their biblical prophecies as support for a superhuman element in the authorship of those prophecies, they shouldn't expect much success outside of their gatherings with fellow believers.

That citation from the movie Frequency would convince nearly any skeptic, or at the least leave them scratching their heads wondering how somebody could provide the details of a baseball game that hadn't been played yet. They'd be demanding answers.

Low quality prophecy like biblical prophecy simply lacks the power to persuade that high quality prophecy offers, and, as you are seeing here, piques little interest in unbelievers.

Those who yearn for the truth are drawn to the Scriptural truths I've been energetically proclaiming.

Sorry, but I don't find much truth in scripture even when it is energetically proclaimed. I've asked the following of several other posters in the past. Maybe you can help. Can you offer me any words attributed to Jesus that are original to Him and that are morally profound or excellent advice fit for a deity to deliver? If you can, please do.

Allow me to illustrate : Consider "Blessed are the meek." As far as I know, that sentiment is original to Jesus. Nobody said it before, and those who have said it since were usually quoting scripture.

Is that an example of the kind of truth that you claim draws those yearning for it? I presume that we are being advised to be meek, and that if we are, that something good called a blessing will follow.

But why? Who does that serve? Certainly not the meek one. It's great for somebody trying exploit another person who the exploiter doesn't want to see rise up to resist him. But there's nothing good about meekness for the meek one.

Meekness is a character flaw - a failure of the spirit - a failure to assert oneself in defense of his legitimate interests. A meek person is a doormat that lets others walk over him and those he's charged to protect.

Now perhaps you are about to confuse being humble with being meek. They are not the same thing. A person can be very confident - assertive, even - and still be humble, but not meek.Meek is like the character Milton from Office Space. Please tell me what is blessed about this:


I realize that you probably consider comments like these about prophecy, biblical truth and wisdom, and the life of Jesus all being mundane blasphemous or hostile, but keep in mind, it is you claiming that biblical prophecy, biblical truth, and the life of Jesus are not just impressive, but unique, superlative, and exemplary. Sorry, but I don't see it. Maybe you can help.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Jesus was speaking of the strange ideas from the Old Testament.
One of these was the acceptance of divorce. He said it was for
"the fathers" that these laws were written. Another example was
the Jewish king - God gave the people a king, but it was offensive
to God that the people wanted this. Same too with polygamy.

We don't live under the Old Testament. The singular example I
can think of concerning slavery was Paul's letter to Philemon.
This letter set in train a move within the Roman Empire later on
to get rid of slavery. Under Christ all are brothers.

If God insipired the OT, and God is triune, then what was Jesus doing while the Father was inspiring that?

Ciao

- viole
 

sooda

Veteran Member
This is a fine example of low quality prophecy. It is nonspecific and predicts nothing unexpected. And, of course, it can convince nobody that its author had special knowledge of the future.

High quality prophecy is unambiguous, specific, and detailed - often specifying time and place. It predicts things not commonplace nor expected. It is all accurate, that is, not mixed with errors. The prophecy must precede that which was predicted, but cannot be self-fulfilling.

Maybe an example of high quality prophecy will help to illustrate.

There was a movie called Frequency some years back in which Dennis Quaid's character’s son contacts his father from his father's future by ham radio. To convince his father that he, the son, really is calling him from the father's future - from 1998 back to 1969 - the son discusses the outcome of game five of what is for the father the as-yet unfinished 1969 World Series, which the father is watching live in 1969 on TV in a local pub :

"Well, game five was the big one. It turned in the bottom of the 6th. We were down 3-0. Cleon Jones gets hit on the foot - left a scuff mark on the ball. Clendenon comes up. The count goes to 2 and 2. High fastball. He nailed it. Weis slammed a solo shot in the 7th to tie. Jones and Swoboda scored in the 8th. We won, Pop."

Then the father watches it happen on TV.

That's high quality "prophecy." That's a convincing knowledge of future events, once fraud such as a tape-delayed broadcast of an already played game is ruled out. Extremely specific and unexpected, and accompanied by no error. Biblical prophecy like the example you provided just can't compare to that. It doesn't convince.

The prophets of science also outperform biblical prophecy. Early last century, Einstein predicted that gravity bends light, something that turned out to be correct, but was not known to be true at the time, nor expected. And he provided specifics on how much it would bend. A clever experiment involving distant starlight grazing by the edge of the eclipsed sun on its way to earth demonstrated that the sun caused a deviation in the path of that distant starlight causing the star to appear to be in a position in the sky in which it was known not to be, Einstein also accurately predicted to what degree the curving of the starlight would displace the apparent position of the star, that is, how far from the star's know position its apparent position would be.

That's high quality prophecy.

The Big Bang theory predicted that because there had been a time in the early universe's past when it cooled enough to allow electrons to join protons and neutrons and form neutral atoms, we should find the ghost remnant of the decoupling of light from matter that then occurred, a faint electromagnetic radiation coming from every direction in space at a fixed intensity and wavelength ought to be present in our universe. Once again, this was unexpected. A few years later, the cosmic microwave background was found, and it was at the precise frequency (temperature) predicted.

That's also high quality prophecy. Note the specificity and the highly unlikely nature of the prediction. Compare that with what you provided - some day, people will come to me claiming to know me and I will disavow them. As I said, vague and trivial.

The recent find of the Higgs boson at precisely the energy predicted, and with the other characteristics predicted (charge, spin, parity) is the latest triumph in scientific prophecy. So great was the scientific community's and its underwriters’ confidence in science and its ability to prophecy, and incredibly large, powerful, and expensive device, the Large Hadron Collider was built to find the particle, which was right where it was predicted to be.

More high quality prophecy specifying details of something

Even so, scientist do not claim to possess superhuman knowledge, and do not offer their prophecies and their confirmations to be evidence of more than quality thinking by human beings, not divine knowledge. If believers are presenting their biblical prophecies as support for a superhuman element in the authorship of those prophecies, they shouldn't expect much success outside of their gatherings with fellow believers.

That citation from the movie Frequency would convince nearly any skeptic, or at the least leave them scratching their heads wondering how somebody could provide the details of a baseball game that hadn't been played yet. They'd be demanding answers.

Low quality prophecy like biblical prophecy simply lacks the power to persuade that high quality prophecy offers, and, as you are seeing here, piques little interest in unbelievers.



Sorry, but I don't find much truth in scripture even when it is energetically proclaimed. I've asked the following of several other posters in the past. Maybe you can help. Can you offer me any words attributed to Jesus that are original to Him and that are morally profound or excellent advice fit for a deity to deliver? If you can, please do.

Allow me to illustrate : Consider "Blessed are the meek." As far as I know, that sentiment is original to Jesus. Nobody said it before, and those who have said it since were usually quoting scripture.

Is that an example of the kind of truth that you claim draws those yearning for it? I presume that we are being advised to be meek, and that if we are, that something good called a blessing will follow.

But why? Who does that serve? Certainly not the meek one. It's great for somebody trying exploit another person who the exploiter doesn't want to see rise up to resist him. But there's nothing good about meekness for the meek one.

Meekness is a character flaw - a failure of the spirit - a failure to assert oneself in defense of his legitimate interests. A meek person is a doormat that lets others walk over him and those he's charged to protect.

Now perhaps you are about to confuse being humble with being meek. They are not the same thing. A person can be very confident - assertive, even - and still be humble, but not meek.Meek is like the character Milton from Office Space. Please tell me what is blessed about this:


I realize that you probably consider comments like these about prophecy, biblical truth and wisdom, and the life of Jesus all being mundane blasphemous or hostile, but keep in mind, it is you claiming that biblical prophecy, biblical truth, and the life of Jesus are not just impressive, but unique, superlative, and exemplary. Sorry, but I don't see it. Maybe you can help.
You have misunderstood blessed are the meek. It was a strong character traits in non violent resistance to the Roman occupation.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Kidnapping anyone and then selling them was punishable by death in ancient Israel-

Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves. -Exodus 21:16

In a similar manner, Christianity also condemns slavery-

We know that the law is good when used correctly. For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders.

The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God. -1 Timothy 1 :8-10

Given the reality that slaves were always kidnapped or the children of kidnapping victims, exactly why, then, do Anti-Christians continue to confuse the consensual program of personal debt settlement utilized in ancient Israel with slavery?

I think they're confused because of spiritual blindness.

I think they repeat slavery canards because they are opposed, enemies of truth (as I understand truth).
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Now you're just being mendacious. Carrying away any individual against their will was kidnapping which was strictly proscribed in ancient Israel under pain of death and slave trading is proscribed at 1 Timothy 1:8-10. (cf. Exodus 21:7; Leviticus 25; 2 Kings 4:1-7)

Look how simple it could have been:

Commanment 11: you shall not own any human being as a property. Period. For they are in my image and it would be like owning me as your property. That is an abomination to the Lord; much worse than eating shrimps or collecting sticks on Saturday.

And if you realy want to keep the number of commandments to 10, that could have easily replaced some of the useless first ones.

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I think they're confused because of spiritual blindness.

I think they repeat slavery canards because they are opposed, enemies of truth (as I understand truth).

Spiritual blindness? Lol, what on earth is that? The contrary of natural hallucinations?

Is that the new defense against God indulging in slavery and genocide in the Bible? Running out of arguments, arent we?

Ciao

- viole
 

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
I make no distinction between a Catholic and a Christian considering the main belief is that they both believe in the divinity of Jesus, son of Mary.





And with the code of conduct he supplied his loyal ones, Christ drew a bright line and then announced that absolutely everyone on the other side is not a Christian.

So wholly devoted to this code would these be that all non-Christian world-views/conduct would be effortlessly recognized. (Malachi 3:18 cf. Titus 1:16)

These preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.

Meaning that, just as we are able to distinguish genuine legal tender apart from Monopoly money, any sincere person can make a distinction between a Christian and an Anti-Christian (Satanist).

So if those of any Christian sect are sedulous disciples of Christ then Muhammad was Jewish . . .
 
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