Maximilian
Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
Have a look at my signature. Can you see why you continue to fail to persuade?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
I have some deep question about God, help!
- Thread starter A94
- Start date
Have a look at my signature. Can you see why you continue to fail to persuade?
Maximilian
Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
And? What's your point?
Btw: "Wikipedia is not a reliable source." -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use
Maximilian
Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
Thank you for sharing that. Now, please explain how this biblical prophecy was actually fulfilled in Baha'u'llah?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What is your game?
Whatever it is I do not want to play it anymore.
I like direct communication only.
What you are implying is too absurd to even address.
Nobody can authenticate ANYTHING that is written in the Bible, the only authentic scriptures that have ever existed in the history of religion are the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
You cannot win this one, if that is your game.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
How do you know anything written in the Bible was written by any of the authors.
How do you know that Jesus said anything that was attributed to Him?
Answer the questions.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
My point is that there are so many English translations of the Bible that it impossible to know which one is correct.
I could find that information about the number of translations on any internet site, not just Wikipedia.
Of course, since we never had any original Bible scriptures it hardly matters that there are so many translations.
Christianity is a faith-based religion, a religion without any real evidence to support it. By contrast, the Baha'i Faith has real evidence that can be verified. There is no comparison.
Maximilian
Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
Since Bahá'u'lláh purportedly wrote concerning the Bible that "the words of the verses themselves eloquently testify to the truth that they are of God" I'm forced to ask, do you pose such a question because you actually want to learn or is this just so you can keep an echo chamber going?
Maximilian
Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
My point is that there are so many English translations of the Bible that it impossible to know which one is correct.
I could find that information about the number of translations on any internet site, not just Wikipedia.
Of course, since we never had any original Bible scriptures it hardly matters that there are so many translations.
Christianity is a faith-based religion, a religion without any real evidence to support it. By contrast, the Baha'i Faith has real evidence that can be verified. There is no comparison.
Were you aware that there are literally thousands upon thousands of ancient Bible manuscripts - in the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine - available today in museums the world over? In fact, no other ancient writings are as well attested to as the Bible's. When you compare these manuscripts to modern Bibles it's unmistakable how accurately these render the ancient texts. As such, any fears of tampering or errata are unwarranted.
Maximilian
Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
Then it would seem you are fantastically uninformed:
“Some writers may toy with the fancy of a ‘Christ―myth,’ but they do not do so on the ground of historical evidence. The historicity of Christ is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Caesar. It is not historians who propagate the ‘Christ―myth’ theories.” ―The New Testament Documents, F. F. Bruce, Rylands Professor of Biblical Criticism and Exegesis at the University of Manchester, England
"No one. No one in scholarly circles dealing with ancient Judaism and early Christianity, of any religious or non―religious persuasion holds the view that Jesus never existed. You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own truth.”—Larry Hurtado, former Professor of New Testament Language, Literature & Theology (University of Edinburgh)
"Jesus did more than just exist. He said and did a great many things that most historians are reasonably certain we can know about today. .... A hundred and fifty years ago a fairly well respected scholar named Bruno Bauer maintained that the historical Jesus never existed. Anyone who says that today ― in the academic world at least ― gets grouped with the skinheads who say there was no Holocaust and the scientific holdouts who want to believe the world is flat." ―M A Powell
"Socrates taught for 40 years, Plato for 50, Aristotle for 40, and Jesus for only 3. Yet the influence of Christ's 3―year ministry infinitely transcends the impact left by the combined 130 years of teaching from these men who were among the greatest philosophers of all antiquity." ―Unknown
"There is something so pure and frank and noble about Him that to doubt His sincerity would be like doubting the brightness of the sun." ―Charles Edward Jefferson
Here are but a few of the historical facts these allude to.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
excuse me.....
there is a text I found in a hospital waiting room
it strikes the name of Moses as well as the title....Genesis
the first page goes straight to verse
Chapter Two begins with a declaration.....
this is a retelling of Chapter One
obviously a creationist's bible
and a corruption
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It had been prophesied that when the Messiah came, the desert would blossom as the rose. Isaiah foretold clearly:
"The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose." (Isaiah 35:1)
It is in the next verse of this prophecy that Isaiah says that when this happens, Carmel and Sharon shall see the Glory of the Lord.
“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2)
Carmel and Sharon had seen the appearance of Bahá'u'lláh, the Glory of the Lord, but had the desert blossomed as the rose? My study revealed that the followers of Bahá'u'lláh came from as far away as his native land even while he was yet in prison. They knew that Bahá'u'lláh loved children, green fields, trees and flowers. They were heavyhearted because of the nine years he had to spend in the prison-city surrounded by the sandy plain and the fetid atmosphere of that 'foul city'. Bahá'u'lláh's followers brought flowers and plants from Persia, and his son, Abdu'l-Bahá planted a lovely garden nearby. An eye-witness to the events of those days has written: "These wonderful pilgrims! How they came on that long toilsome journey on foot, braving numberless dangers, malignant human enemies and bad weather, and through all the fatigue, carrying, as the greatest treasure, some plant for their adored one's garden. Often the only water, which the devoted pilgrims so urgently needed for themselves, was given to the plant." The Chosen Highway, Lady Blomfield, p. 96.
I made a personal visit to that garden on the island of Na'mayn outside the city of Akká. The land is arid, thirsting for water; yet, in the midst of this desert grows a magnificent garden. Laurence Oliphant refers to it in his book on Israel. He says: "This island (garden), which is about two hundred yards long by scarcely a hundred wide, is all laid out in flower-beds and planted with ornamental shrubs and with fruit-trees. Coming upon it suddenly it is like a scene in fairy land." Haifa, or Life in Modern Palestine, Lawrence Oliphant, 1887, pp. 103-104.
In another place, Oliphant says of this garden: "The stream is fringed with weeping willows, and the spot, with its wealth of water, its thick shade, and air fragrant with jasmine and orange blossoms, forms an ideal retreat from the heats of summer. The sights and sounds are all suggestive of languor... The senses are lulled by the sounds of murmuring water, the odours of fragrant plants, the flickering shadows of foliage, or the gorgeous tints of flowers..." Haifa, or Life in Modern Palestine, Lawrence Oliphant,1887, p. 104.
From the sandy plain of Akká, I drove to the rocky side of Mount Carmel. There on the side of this sacred mountain, were lovely gardens, walks and paths of magnificent beauty virtually carved out of the rock. Even while I was flying from Rome en route to the Holy Land, the beauty of this spot was called to my attention. I was given a folder from the British European Airways. On the cover was a picture of the entrance to the gardens of the Bahá'í Faith on Mount Carmel. The folder described it as: "The most beautiful spot in the Middle East."
Between the two great Bahá'í gardens that go halfway up the mountainside, runs a broad highway. Through the gates leading from this highway stream pilgrims and visitors from all parts of the world. They come with hearts full of joy and gladness, and the sound of their beautiful chanting can be heard on that mountainside. This, too, was foreseen by Isaiah:
"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8).
"And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10).
Surrounding these beautiful Shrines and gardens are orange, lemon and pomegranate trees. Beautiful coloured paths of red and white stone wind through multi-coloured flowers, graceful lawns and dark green hedges. Wherever the feet of Bahá'u'lláh walked can be found these lovely gardens.
The Shrine of Bahá'u'lláh, the sanctuary where he is buried, is a place of great beauty and peace. It lies in the centre of a giant circle with many walks leading to it. This land was once an arid desert, but now it blossoms out in splendour. It is perfumed by rose, hyacinth, jasmine and geranium. Smooth white stones from the Sea of Galilee make a pathway directly to the door of his Shrine. Three hills carpeted in crimson shelter his sanctuary from wind and storm. These sacred Shrines are surrounded by cedars of Lebanon, fir trees, pine trees, cypress, box, and olive trees.
Isaiah had foretold: "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." (Isaiah 11:10)
In still another chapter, Isaiah prophesies: "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee." (Isaiah 60:1)
And a few verses later he foresees the following: "The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious." (Isaiah 60:13)
Bahá'u'lláh's name means 'the Glory of the Lord'. The place of his 'rest' had been made glorious, as well as the place where his feet had walked.
From: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
Maximilian
Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
Are you suggesting, then, that Christ Jesus was not the promised Messiah but it was in fact Bahá'u'lláh?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
These questions were for YOU, not for me. I know what you just quoted, so that is how I know the Bible is "His most great testimony amongst His creatures" as Baha'u'llah wrote in The Kitab-i-Iqan.
My question was how a Christian would know, not how a Baha'i would know.
That they are "of God" can mean different things to different people. Obviously, it does not mean God wrote them because God does not write.... The general Baha'i position is the the authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
The original context of this discussion was how I know Baha'u'llah authored His Tablets.... So my questions to you still stand:
How do you know anything written in the Bible was written by any of the authors.
How do you know that Jesus said anything that was attributed to Him?
Answer the questions.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Are you referring to the Old Testament?
In the old synagogue in Cairo were discovered 260,000 Hebrew manuscripts, 10,000 of which are biblical manuscripts. There are more than 200 biblical manuscripts among the Dead Sea Scrolls, some of them were written in the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet. They were written before the year 70 AD.
List of Hebrew Bible manuscripts - Wikipedia
Or were you referring to the New Testament?
The original manuscripts of the New Testament books are not known to have survived. The autographs are believed to have been lost or destroyed a long time ago. ... Generally speaking, these copies were made centuries after the originals from other copies rather than from the autograph.
Biblical manuscript - Wikipedia
Even if there were original scriptures there is no way that they could possibly be authenticated to have been authored by any individuals who claim to have authored them. And you are saying we cannot authenticate the Writings of Baha'u'llah that were written in the 19th century? Do you understand the problem?
Maximilian
Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
Thank you for clarifying
To answer your questions, indirect evidence is frequently and consistently relied upon to ascertain the reality of our world. As a case in point, it's long been widely used to show that our Sun generates power via nuclear fusion, hydrogen is present in it or that our planet features an iron core. In like manner, the fact that there are dozens upon dozens of fulfilled Bible prophecies constitutes probative evidence of the existence of its author, Jehovah God.
This fact is, by far, the most compelling logical reason why millions upon millions of rational people today the world over only accept the Bible as the Inspired Word of Jehovah God. Simply no other book – religious or not – comes with such illustrious prominence. Because it's impossible for any person to foresee with complete precision what's sure to occur from one hour to the next, there's no two ways about it: Bible prophecies are not of natural origin.
It necessarily follows, then, that everything, every single last detail recorded with its pages is the truth.
Does this answer your questions?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Funny thing, most atheists I know do not agree with you that Jesus could be proven to exist, at least not the Jesus depicted in the NT.
Anyone can write anything about Jesus but I was not referring to what others wrote about Jesus...
I said: Nobody can authenticate ANYTHING that is written in the Bible. That means you cannot prove who wrote it.
JChnsc19
Member
I see you cited 2 Peter so I’m assuming you’re not arguing this as a Jew or Muslim but instead as a Christian? How did you know which one to pick?Again?
...and you used so little. Why so few? Can I help?
How about we start from the beginning.
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals...So it said to the woman:
What? A talking serpent? The Bible has snakes talking human language. Not to mention talking donkeys and burning bushes.
2 Peter 2:16 . . .A voiceless beast of burden speaking with a human voice.... (Numbers 22:28) . . .Jehovah caused the donkey to speak, and it said....?”
The man talks back to both the donkey, and the bush. So the Bible has accounts of men who either lost it, or thought that speaking to objects was normal. Yup... pretty much - they lost it. Whoa.
Moving along, we have...
Joshua 10:12-14 ...So the sun stood still and the moon did not move...
The sun and moon stood motionless together. So what's not moving? Skeptics... any ideas?
Judges 14:8, 9
8 Later when he was going back to take her home, he turned aside to look at the dead body of the lion, and there in the lion’s carcass was a swarm of bees and honey. 9 So he scraped the honey out into his hands and ate it as he walked along. When he rejoined his father and mother, he gave them some to eat. But he did not tell them that he had scraped the honey out of the carcass of a lion.
What...?
The Bible has a man scraping honey from the carcass of a lion... with swarming bees. Oh dear.
This same man lifted an entire city gate, off the walls - hinges and all, and walked up a hill with it. He also push down an entire palace with his bare hands... among other extraordinary things. ....???
Psalm 19:4 In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun;
Psalm 19:6 It emerges from one end of the heavens, And it circles to their other end;. . .
People thought that the sun is in a tent, and the heavens has ends. Oh my.
Psalm 58:8 May they be like a snail that melts away as it moves along; Like a woman’s stillborn child who never sees the sun.
Ha Ha. People thought that snails melted as they moved. They probably thought the sun melted them, so where the trail ended, that must be where the snail ended - gone. Poor snail... lol.
Psalm 74:17 You set up all the boundaries of the earth; You made summer and winter.
The writers believe there are lines around the earth. ...What am I reading?
Psalm 84:11 For Jehovah God is a sun and a shield;. . .
God is a sun. Okay then. So all the scientists have to do now, is find all the suns in the universe. Just find the one that has a shield... or look like a shield... maybe, they find God. Whoa... my head.
Actually, it seems they don't have to search that far. They only have to scour above the clouds.
Psalm 104:3 He lays beams of his upper rooms in the waters above, Making the clouds his chariot, Moving on the wings of the wind.
Um... but haven't they done that?
Waaahhh There didn't find God where he was supposed to be. Waaahhhh There must be no God. Waaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Oh no.
Psalm 104:6, 7
6 You covered it with deep waters as with a garment. The waters stood above the mountains. 7 At your rebuke they fled; At the sound of your thunder they ran away in panic
The water ran away from thunder and lightning, so that mountains could form.
Stars fought against a man. (Judges 5:20) From heaven the stars fought; From their orbits they fought against Sisera.
Psalm 136:6 He spread out the earth over the waters,. . . What? I'm done.
Sorry. That was a lot.
Maximilian
Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
"Wikipedia is not a reliable source." -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use
JChnsc19
Member
God gave everyone the freedom to chose their own destiny. So when a devout believer develops Alzheimer’s or schizophrenia does this still apply? If after developing that disease, they think they are a Martian, they are god and everyone who doesn’t like spaghetti needs to be slaughtered - are they truly & genuinely exercising that free will, freedom to chose?
What about after a lobotomy or a traumatic brain injury when afterwards the persons personality completely changes and they are a militant atheist- still apply then?
Maximilian
Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
Even if that were actually the case, and it's not, that's wholly irrelevant. Irrespective of who God's amanuenses were, the Bible expresses God's thoughts, not man's; it is the Word of God, not man.
Accordingly, every single detail it contains is complete and absolute truth.