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To kill or not to kill?

1nharmony

A Coco-Nut
Early on in the Bible (Exodus 20)God gives Moses ten commandments for his people to live by. Among them is this - "Thou shalt not kill." It sounds pretty straight forward. Not up for discussion and no exceptions, right?

Yet, what follows throughout the rest of the Old Testament is a gory plethora of peoples wiped out by the Israelites. How can God tell you not to kill, and then lead you into battle over and over again???? :confused:

I'm still on the lookout for a religion, belief system or whatever that teaches people to be nice to each other.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
1nharmony said:
I'm still on the lookout for a religion, belief system or whatever that teaches people to be nice to each other.

They all teach that more or less. It doesn't stop human beings being mean to each other.

As for the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" the OT God might have added "unless I say so". There exists in religions as in law the concept of a "lawful" killing, and the wars of the Israelites would have been covered in this, especially as divine ordnances, as would the Vietnam war for different reasons.

The main idea is not to kill you neighbour. But its impossible not to do that when conquering lands for the Lord as well. The Jews were His first tribe, but the Christians and Muslims carried on the torch of conquest in His name. Hence, "Thou shalt not kill", but killing all the same.
 

may

Well-Known Member
1nharmony said:
I'm still on the lookout for a religion, belief system or whatever that teaches people to be nice to each other.
it would be those who listen to Jesus instruction.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
1nharmony said:
Early on in the Bible (Exodus 20)God gives Moses ten commandments for his people to live by. Among them is this - "Thou shalt not kill." It sounds pretty straight forward. Not up for discussion and no exceptions, right?

Yet, what follows throughout the rest of the Old Testament is a gory plethora of peoples wiped out by the Israelites. How can God tell you not to kill, and then lead you into battle over and over again???? :confused:

I'm still on the lookout for a religion, belief system or whatever that teaches people to be nice to each other.
All Christs teachings do this.
In the real world I think the Quakers take it the furthest.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
1nharmony said:
Early on in the Bible (Exodus 20)God gives Moses ten commandments for his people to live by. Among them is this - "Thou shalt not kill." It sounds pretty straight forward. Not up for discussion and no exceptions, right?
Wrong. Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17 are more properly translated "You shall not murder".
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
1nharmony said:
Early on in the Bible (Exodus 20)God gives Moses ten commandments for his people to live by. Among them is this - "Thou shalt not kill." It sounds pretty straight forward. Not up for discussion and no exceptions, right?

Yet, what follows throughout the rest of the Old Testament is a gory plethora of peoples wiped out by the Israelites. How can God tell you not to kill, and then lead you into battle over and over again???? :confused:

I'm still on the lookout for a religion, belief system or whatever that teaches people to be nice to each other.

I have also wondered about this account. The two most disturbing aspects about this story is why people:

1. Haven’t wondered why God would give this commandment to His chosen people but not do the murdering Himself. At the Red Sea it is said that God killed the Egyptians when they tried to pursue the Israelites. Why make the Israelites do His dirty work?

2. Have accepted, supported and followed this God and this account without question or reason (this is the most scariest of the two).
 

ayani

member
but a life is still taken, regardless. is it "murder" to kill a clansman, and permitted if you kill a "foreigner"?

re: looking for a religion in which people are instructed to be nice to one another. Quakers, UUs, and Buddhists are the most solid folks on this principle i have yet met.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
gracie said:
but a life is still taken, regardless. is it "murder" to kill a clansman, and permitted if you kill a "foreigner"?

re: looking for a religion in which people are instructed to be nice to one another. Quakers, UUs, and Buddhists are the most solid folks on this principle i have yet met.

Strangely enough, the above was the status Quo in Central Africa (hopefully now it is something that is no longer applicable); Cannibals (which included many tribes) considered it quite 'O.K' to kill a human from another tribe for food although they would never kill one of their own tribe.
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
1nharmony said:
I'm still on the lookout for a religion, belief system or whatever that teaches people to be nice to each other.

I may be able to suggest something to you but I need you to provide two pertinent pieces of information.
PM me if you prefer to keep this information from the public.

1) What is your name?
2) Have you ever demonstrated extreme cruelty towards another fellow Being in the name of God?
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
Jay said:
Wrong. Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17 are more properly translated "You shall not murder".
Excellent point! :clap
1nharmony said:
How can God tell you not to kill, and then lead you into battle over and over again?
I don't recall if this was originally mistranslated in the King James Edition of the Bible or earlier, but there's such a major difference between murder and kill that the error distorts the meaning of this Commandment. Killing in times of war or in defense of on innocent does not constitute murder.
 

retrorich

SUPER NOT-A-MOD
Godlike said:
The main idea is not to kill you neighbour. But its impossible not to do that when conquering lands for the Lord as well.
"Conquering lands for the Lord"? What a dreadful concept! Probably more a case of conquering lands for reasons of hatred and greed. "Onward, Chistian soldiers," my butt. :eek: :eek: :eek:
 

retrorich

SUPER NOT-A-MOD
jmoum said:
I think he was reffering to the Jews in the old testament.
Jews, Christians, Muslims, whatever. It's still of case of killing for reasons of hatred and greed--and using God as an excuse.
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
Examples of God asking people to “murder” but not in defense.

Genesis
15:9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
15:10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.

22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

Exodus
21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

24:5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.
24:6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
24:5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.
24:6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

Leviticus
12:4 And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying
be fulfilled.
12:5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.
12:8 And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.

20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
20:4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:

20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

20:27 Stone to death any witches or wizards "Their blood shall be upon them."
Same as above.

24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

Numbers
1:51 And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
Jmoum writes: Nice, I'll see with what I can work with here. I'll just go through a few things. First, I can't really comment on Genesis 15:9-10 because that's taken out of context and I have no idea what's going on.
The example in Genesis has to do with the murder of animals. Jehovah LOVES issuing the murder of defenseless animals and is obsessively detailed on what to do with the remains of such dead animals.

Jmoum writes:Second, Genesis 22:2 and such, God is testing Abraham.
Testing Love and devotion with deadly commitments of murder, very nice.

Jmoum writes:Third, Exodus 21:17 was a means of maintaining social order. A lot of jewish laws are like that. Hence, the popularity with stoning. Exodus 22:18, the original word for "Witch" was a type of person who poisoned people through the use of herbs. However, when they translated the word, they didn't have a term for that, so they used the best word that fit, which was a Witch, because back then, they grew their own gardens and were very familiar with herbs. Exodus 22:19, once again, social order. Beastiality is just plain wrong, to the Nth degree. Therfore, they need to be punished. Exodus 22:20, that's worshiping another god before the one true God. Refer to my earlier post about the threat of other religious cultures to the Jewish people and you'll understand why that's there.
Excommunication and disfellowship must not have been invented yet.
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
cardero said:
Examples of God asking people to “murder” but not in defense...
Abraham did not kill Isaac as this was a test of faithfulness. Killing an animal for food or sacrifice is not murder. The killings specified in Leviticus and Numbers are nor murder because the 'evil doers' would not be innocents. As jmoum said, they "lived in a much harsher and brutal world", and that is reflected in the OT.
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
CaptainXeroid said:
Abraham did not kill Isaac as this was a test of faithfulness. Killing an animal for food or sacrifice is not murder. The killings specified in Leviticus and Numbers are nor murder because the 'evil doers' would not be innocents. As jmoum said, they "lived in a much harsher and brutal world", and that is reflected in the OT.
Murdering for food I can understand but making sacrifices of animals because a woman gave birth (Leviticus 12:6-8) might be hard for me to wrap my mind around. Who knows, like jmoum says, it may have been the cultural practices of the time.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Hi!

>I'm still on the lookout for a religion, belief system or whatever that teaches people to be nice to each other.

As a Baha'i, I can assure you that such religions exist! :)

All the best, and I wish you good hunting!

Bruce
 

may

Well-Known Member
"By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."—JOHN 13:35. True christians live in all parts of the world and they would never kill their own , so this would mean that they would not fight against another country because they may just kill their brother or sister in another land. and Jesus said to love your enemy also . so true christians would not learn how to kill people. they are taught by THE PRINCE OF PEACE
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
CaptainXeroid said:
Abraham did not kill Isaac as this was a test of faithfulness. Killing an animal for food or sacrifice is not murder. The killings specified in Leviticus and Numbers are nor murder because the 'evil doers' would not be innocents. As jmoum said, they "lived in a much harsher and brutal world", and that is reflected in the OT.

The problem is there are many Christians and even more Jews who take the old testament words to have validity today.
I can understand the Jews doing this.
What I can't understand is Christians doing it, when they know Jesus gave a new covernant.
 
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