Was it any use for jesus to die for sins?

syo said:

Jesus went to heaven as human. It means humans will join the Father.

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I find Jesus died as a sinless human, but his God resurrected Jesus back to his per-human heavenly spirit body.
Remember: Flesh and blood ( physical ) can Not inherit the kingdom as per 1 Corinthians 15:50.
Plus, the resurrected Jesus used different materialized bodies to appear to his disciples.
That explains why at first they did Not recognize the resurrected Jesus.

URAVIP2ME said:

Jesus sacrificed his perfect sinless human life for us. Hebrews 9:24 shows that God approved of Jesus.
If Jesus was still in the grave (Acts 2:27) then Jesus would be in the same boat, so to speak, as Adam.
A dead-in-the-ground Adam can't help us avoid sin with its bad consequence of death.
But a living resurrected sinless Jesus can resurrect us - Revelation 1:18.

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I do my very best to respect another's beliefs....however, when IMHO those beliefs are irrational/illogical, I feel compelled to speak up.
While God may very well have "approved" of Jesus, there is nothing about his having been crucified which affects US as being "sinners" before God.
And a "dead in the ground" Jesus can't help any of us to actually AVOID committing a sin, any more than an ABOVE ground Jesus could. We being free moral agents, are free to sin REGARDLESS of where Jesus is or is not.
Now in regards to a "resurrected Jesus"....I have no expectations of being "resurrected" after I die, for ANY reasons. Death being the final curtain call for us all.
IF I feel the need to be excused of my "sins", I can do that by beseeching God directly to forgive me, as it IS so stated in the bible...where in Hosea God declared HIMSELF as the ONLY God as well as the ONLY savior anyone shall EVER need.

ACEofALLaces said:

So, you believe that if Adam had NOT eaten that fruit, he would have lived 'forever'?
Besides, what exactly WAS the point and purpose of Jesus "dying" if he didn't REALLY die and is now at God's right hand, as if nothing had EVER happened? Simply a lot of "theatrics and superfluous melodrama?

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Does it say in the Bible narrative he would have lived forever?

Landon Caeli said:

Fom my understanding, Jesus, being both fully God and Fully man, was forced to enter into hell, like every other human being... because he was a man. And because of original sin.
...Once he descended into it, he took many souls out of there with him and they ascended out of there, and the chains were broken.
I guess Jesus could have waited until he died a natural death, assuming he could die a natural death. By that seems less interesting and undevoted to his mission.

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Since the sinless do Not die, there would be No natural death for Jesus.

Forced into what hell ________
I find there is a BIG difference between the 'Bible's hell' and a 'religious-myth hell' just taught as being Scripture.
Jesus and the OT both teach: the dead are in a sleep-like state, Not in a pain-like state
- John 11:11-14; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
So, while dead Jesus was in biblical hell he was in an un-conscious sleep-like state until his God resurrected him.
Thus, the Bible's hell is simply mankind stone-cold temporary grave for the sleeping dead until Resurrection Day.
If biblical hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be in hell.- Revelation 1:18
Also, a permanent place can Not end, whereas biblical hell comes to a final end as per Revelation 20:13-14.
Please notice that after everyone in hell is ' delivered up ' ( meaning resurrected out of hell ) then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell / grave.

Those ' spirits ' of 1 Peter 3:18-19 are the 'fallen spirit angels' of Noah's day as per 2 Peter 2:5; Jude 1:6.
By Jesus appearing to them in ( tartarus ) shows those demons that Jesus was successful, and their days like Satan are numbered - Revelation 20:1-3

Remté said:

Does it say in the Bible narrative he would have lived forever?

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I find mortal Adam was offered 'everlasting life on Earth' as long as he did Not break God's law.- Genesis 2:17.

ACEofALLaces said:

I do my very best to respect another's beliefs....however, when IMHO those beliefs are irrational/illogical, I feel compelled to speak up.
While God may very well have "approved" of Jesus, there is nothing about his having been crucified which affects US as being "sinners" before God.
And a "dead in the ground" Jesus can't help any of us to actually AVOID committing a sin, any more than an ABOVE ground Jesus could. We being free moral agents, are free to sin REGARDLESS of where Jesus is or is not.
Now in regards to a "resurrected Jesus"....I have no expectations of being "resurrected" after I die, for ANY reasons. Death being the final curtain call for us all.
IF I feel the need to be excused of my "sins", I can do that by beseeching God directly to forgive me, as it IS so stated in the bible...where in Hosea God declared HIMSELF as the ONLY God as well as the ONLY savior anyone shall EVER need.

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I find, those who have expectations of being resurrected are those who follow Jesus - see 1 Corinthians 15:12-17.
No resurrection then one's 'faith' (confidence in Jesus) is in vain and to be pitied.

Sure, we are all free to sin, as we are all free to act responsibly toward God.
I also find ' death ' is Not the final curtain call for those people of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
At this coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth those counted as humble 'figurative sheep'-like people can remain alive on Earth.
They can continue to live on Earth right into the start of Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth. During that thousand-year day ' enemy death ' will be No more as per 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8.

Remté said:

What is it supposed to change? Personal responsibility remains.

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Bible tells Jesus came to declare the forgiveness of the sins.


"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19


He said to them, "Let's go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this reason I came forth."
Mark 1:38

But he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent."
Luke 4:43

And Jesus forgave before his death:

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

And reason why he died:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24

By dying Jesus got a chance to rise from death and show death has no power over God. It gave his disciples courage to continue, which was important.

Remté said:

What is it supposed to change? Personal responsibility remains.

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Jesus had a mission. He came to bring a new Revelation and establish Religion of God. He taught a new way of life. A spiritual life so, people may learn to live spiritually and not sinfully. To do all this, He had to sacrifice His life. Because, the Jewish leaders did not want someone comes to take their place, so, they killed Him. Instead Jesus left a Holy Book among people, containing His teachings, by its teachings people can save themselves from Sin. Thus Jesus died for the Sins. It does not mean if Christians do not follow teachings of God, they will be saved though, as Jesus asked everyone to do the commandments of the Father. It is not enough to just believe in Jesus, and His sacrifice.
But if we imagine, Jesus left the world, and His Book also got corrupted, it means we are saying God was defeated, and there was no benefit from Jesus to humanity. That would be a false idea.

InvestigateTruth said:

Jesus had a mission. He came to bring a new Revelation and establish Religion of God. He taught a new way of life. A spiritual life so, people may learn to live spiritually and not sinfully. To do all this, He had to sacrifice His life. Because, the Jewish leaders did not want someone comes to take their place, so, they killed Him. Instead Jesus left a Holy Book among people, containing His teachings, by its teachings people can save themselves from Sin. Thus Jesus died for the Sins. It does not mean if Christians do not follow teachings of God, they will be saved though, as Jesus asked everyone to do the commandments of the Father. It is not enough to just believe in Jesus, and His sacrifice.
But if we imagine, Jesus left the world, and His Book also got corrupted, it means we are saying God was defeated, and there was no benefit from Jesus to humanity. That would be a false idea.

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What book do you suppose Jesus left? He certainly didn't write the Bible.

Remté said:

What book do you suppose Jesus left? He certainly didn't write the Bible.

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He did not write it Himself, but God revealed to His apostles. That is what the Quran says. Do you know the verse?

If God wanted the Book be written by Jesus, He could have. He is omnipotent, is not He?

InvestigateTruth said:

He did not write it Himself, but God revealed to His apostles. That is what the Quran says. Do you know the verse?

If God wanted the Book be written by Jesus, He could have. He is omnipotent, is not He?

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I don't know which verse you mean but for some reason I have feeling we've been through it before...

Remté said:

I don't know which verse you mean but for some reason I have feeling we've been through it before...

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Verse 5:111

And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'".


The verse confirms there was a special communication with Disciples, as God had inspired them. This is compatible with the Gospels accounts, as the Gospels say All scriptures are inspired by God.
The Revelation of Christ was written by the Disciples, rather than by Jesus, as there is a Wisdom in it. In this way, The Disciples appear to be Witnesses of Jesus. Christians believed in the stories, because Jesus had witnesses. But it contains the teachings of Jesus, and that is what matters.

InvestigateTruth said:

Verse 5:111

And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'".


The verse confirms there was a special communication with Disciples, as God had inspired them.

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No it doesn't. It only means they have faith and God inspired the faith in them.

blü 2 said:

One name for them is 'pie in the sky when you die'.

Who made that promise? Jesus (not least John's Jesus) and the Christians to this day.

And in return, I ask you: assuming there was an historical Jesus, what was different in reality after his death?

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In reality?
Well the Old Testament stated that after the death of the Messiah there
would be an end to Israel. Moses and Jacob spoke of the exile of the Jews
and Daniel spoke of the destruction of the temple. Jesus spoke of both
the end of Jerusalem, the destruction of the temple and wrath upon the
Jewish nation.
So the bible isn't about 'pie in the sky'

Secondly it was said that after the Visitation of the Messiah the Gentiles
would believe in Him. Those Jews who did believe in Jesus left the Jewish
nation and became Gentiles, so to speak.

And after His death the Gentile world forsook paganism.

Epic Beard Man said:

I really see the crucifixion of Jesus as an evolving theology that has been interpreted and re-interpreted

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By the bible, or by the 35,000 'Christian' denominations?

Remté said:

What is it supposed to change? Personal responsibility remains.

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Due to inherited sinMan is in need of atonement (1Ki 8:46;Ps51:5;Ro3;23) Adam, who lost everlasting life in human perfection bequeathed sin and death to his offspring, therefore all of Adams offspring came under condemnation of death.
By his death Jesus atoned for our "inherited sin" and gave us the opportunity to regain the hope of everlasting life.
As you correctly point out however accountability for our personal actions still remains.

Remté said:

What is it supposed to change? Personal responsibility remains.

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1 Corinthians 15:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Christ death is the fulfillment of the Scriptures and an example of which is:

Isaiah 53:4-6 New International Version (NIV)
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Now before I continue, who is "our" in Christ died for our sins
who is "our" in he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities

Whose sins are those by the way?
Is it the Buddhists also? [6th century BC to the present] Who do not even know the Lord Jesus Christ?
Is it the Hindus also? [1600 BC to the present] Who have varied and diversified beliefs about gods?
Is it for the Animist and Pagan also? Is it for the rapists, the drug dealers, and the bad hombres?



If a man continues to be a bad hombre, what is the end result?

1 John 3:7-9 New International Version (NIV)
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

But wait!

Which or who exactly did the Lord Jesus Christ died for their sins and was pierced for their transgressions and was crushed for their iniquities?

From the Bible, not from opinions:

Ephesians 5:25 New International Version (NIV)
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

If a person is not a member of the church which Christ loved, then we could say Christ didn't die for.

Nowhere Man said:

So, is Christ alive or dead then?

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He had better be alive

if someone of His ability should fail to continue beyond the last breath
the rest of us are screwed

Neuropteron said:

Due to inherited sinMan is in need of atonement (1Ki 8:46;Ps51:5;Ro3;23) Adam, who lost everlasting life in human perfection bequeathed sin and death to his offspring, therefore all of Adams offspring came under condemnation of death.
By his death Jesus atoned for our "inherited sin" and gave us the opportunity to regain the hope of everlasting life.
As you correctly point out however accountability for our personal actions still remains.

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you think the forbidden fruit was a pop quiz?
and the first couple failed to get the right answer?

I don't think so

Remté said:

What is it supposed to change? Personal responsibility remains.

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it offers us forgiveness if we repent and not just for us but for all who came before. They could not be forgiven if Jesus did not come. Their animal sacrifices only looked forward to Jesus who is the real sacrifice. And there were no animal sacrifices for great sins like murder for example. In The 51st Psalm David in a moment of Divine inspiration says that God doesn't want (animal)sacrifices but a broken and contrite heart. This proves that the sacrifices were of no use to forgive his great sin(adultery and murder). The Jews to this day cannot really explain why God wanted animal sacrifice for small sins, but just forgave great sins without sacrifice. It's because God forgave them looking forward to Jesus Christ the real sacrifice.