"Chicago Billboard Urges Catholics to 'Value Children Over Dogma' and Quit Church"

Musing Bassist said:

Confession isn't a blank cheque to do what you like. (That's an idiotic strawman)

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Not a blank check nor a strawman at all. It all comes down to rationalization. Rationalizations that can include:

I'm not saying any of this, including the use of confession, is in line with Catholicism, but when rationalized it becomes true to the abuser. Unlike most other abusers, priests have the luxury of a belief in immediate forgiveness---true or not., and the blind eye of the Church that will protect them.

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Salvador said:

In a study of U.S Priests., about 1/2 percent of them were pedophiles in comparison to an estimated 3-7 percent of the overall male U.S. population being pedophiles.

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You're about 800% off.

Salvador said:

Pedophiles sexually abuse prepubescent children; whereas sexual offenders may or may not be pedophiles. If a sex offender only sexually abuses people who are past puberty, then he isn't a pedophile.

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Yes, but the topic was sexual abuse be priests, it was not restricted to pedophilia.

Skwim said:

Not a blank check nor a strawman at all. It all comes down to rationalization. Rationalizations that can include:

It doesn't harm the child so it's not molesting.
Bobby likes it
Other priests do it so it must be alright
Even if it is bad confession will absolve me of it
If found out the church will protect me (which it has)
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I'm not saying any of this, including the use of confession, is in line with Catholicism, but when rationalized it becomes true to the abuser. Unlike most other abusers, priests have the luxury of a belief in immediate forgiveness---true or not., and the blind eye of the Church that will protect them.

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According to the 2002 John Jay Report over about 70 years, "Only 96 of the 4,329 priest offenders were classified by John Jay report as true pedophiles". Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Clergy

" .... one can say there were over 100,000 newly ordained and existing Roman Catholic clergy (109,694 John Jay p. 4) in the USA over the fifty-year period of the John Jay Report "

John Jay Report - Wikipedia

96 out of over 100,000 equals less than 0.1 percent of Priests who are true pedophiles, this is way less than the at least 3 percent of the overall male population who are pedophiles.

Skwim said:

You're about 800% off.

"According to the best available data (which is pretty good, coming from a comprehensive report by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2004, as well as several other studies), 4 percent of Catholic priests in the U.S. sexually victimized minors during the past half century."
source

The 4,392 priests who were accused amount to approximately 4% of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time.[between 1950 and 2002: ]
Source: Wikipedia

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I'm not talking about sexual abuse of minors who are past puberty, I'm talking about sexual abuse of prepubescent children.

Subduction Zone said:

Yes, but the topic was sexual abuse be priests, it was not restricted to pedophilia.

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Ok...but I'm pointing out the fact that priests are way less likely to be pedophiles than the overall male population.

If you don't please mind me moving the goal posts for the topic of this discussion. ....

Skwim said:

Not a blank check nor a strawman at all. It all comes down to rationalization. Rationalizations that can include:

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No, it is a stawman. You cannot walk into confession and expect absolution without the serious commitment to change. Not that long ago, I was listening to a online sermon by a traditionalist priest who stated that under the old rules a seminarian who confessed to serious sexual misconduct was to be denied absolution until he dropped all intentions of entering the priesthood.

Now imagine if that was enforced? If these men were weeded out as they should have been the whole sex abuse scandal would have been much more limited in scope. The issue was never the tenets of Catholicism. The problem was the disregard of those tenets. (One of which is that all forms of sexual activity outside of marriage constitutes grave sin).

The other issue is as Salvador points out, that the scandal has been framed as an issue of pedophilia. Actually, instances of true pedophilia were a minority of cases. The majority of cases involved either pubescent boys in their teens or rampant adult homosexual activity among seminarians. But neither the Church or the mainstream media will acknowledge that outright because the implications are uncomfortable for those concerned with being PC. That the Church has been complicit in a cultivated culture of homosexuality within its clerical ranks and that the consequences of this have been devastating.

Salvador said:

According to the 2002 John Jay Report over about 70 years, "Only 96 of the 4,329 priest offenders were classified by John Jay report as true pedophiles". Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Clergy

" .... one can say there were over 100,000 newly ordained and existing Roman Catholic clergy (109,694 John Jay p. 4) in the USA over the fifty-year period of the John Jay Report "

John Jay Report - Wikipedia

96 out of over 100,000 equals less than 0.1 percent of Priests who are true pedophiles, this is way less than the at least 3 percent of the overall male population who are pedophiles.

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That is misleading . The question is not how many pedophiles, but rather how many sexual abusers. Most of the victims of priests are underaged post pubescent boys. That technically is not pedophilia but it is still rape.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Well said. As an atheist myself, I could never make the argument that a few bad officers means that the entire organization should be boycotted. That would result in far too many innocents being punished for the misdeeds of the few.

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I can only kind of see the merit of this position, because meanwhile, innocents were already being hurt in droves.

Put it this way... If I worked for an organization and at some point during my tenure it was discovered that some of the very foundations of the organization allowed for child-sex predators to conduct their horrific business almost entirely undetected, and then further found out that up into the higher echelons of leadership it had been known and hushed up... then if the public came knocking in the door and demanding that this establishment be torn asunder... do you know what my response would be? "Let this piece of crap burn to the ground."

Skwim said:

To tell the truth I have absolutely no idea what goes through a priest's head, but I'm pretty sure they find absolution for the abuse somewhere in their faith. Again . . . . and again . . . . and again. . . .

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So there's no rational reason to believe this, it's just your personal guesswork that Catholic dogma tells priests children are sex toys and to do with them as they please?

Any evidence that priests are even more likely to abuse children than other clerics? teachers? care workers? men in general?

It's a disgrace that the church covered up these issues and they should be held to full account for this and prosecuted to the full extent of the law, but any sufficiently random population of men will commit some sex crimes over time. Why should we believe Priests are specifically driven to abuse kids because of Catholic dogma?

Subduction Zone said:

Most of the victims of priests are underaged post pubescent boys. That technically is not pedophilia but it is still rape.

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The 4% figure represents priests who sexually abused children, only a minority of victims were raped. Sexual abuse covers all inappropriate behaviour: exposure, touching, rape, etc.

Augustus said:

The 4% figure represents priests who sexually abused children, only a minority of victims were raped. Sexual abuse covers all inappropriate behaviour: exposure, touching, rape, etc.

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It depends upon how one defines rape. And I would like to see some statistics on that. I noted that the statistics had quite a range.

I'm genuinely unsure how any parent can be comfortable with their child attending a Catholic church regularly considering the way the Church has and continues to act in relation to the child abuse scandal. They seem thoroughly unrepentant and not the slightest bit interested in doing anything substantial to make things better.

I question the ethical nature of continuing to support an organisation which has been found to be complicit in criminal behaviour. Why wouldn't you want to remove your child from the auspices of an organisation like this?

Salvador said:

I'm not talking about sexual abuse of minors who are past puberty, I'm talking about sexual abuse of prepubescent children.

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... because you're okay with sexual abuse of adolescents and adults?

The Emperor of Mankind said:

I'm genuinely unsure how any parent can be comfortable with their child attending a Catholic church regularly considering the way the Church has and continues to act in relation to the child abuse scandal. They seem thoroughly unrepentant and not the slightest bit interested in doing anything substantial to make things better.

I question the ethical nature of continuing to support an organisation which has been found to be complicit in criminal behaviour. Why wouldn't you want to remove your child from the auspices of an organisation like this?

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They could believe that things have improved.

Subduction Zone said:

It depends upon how one defines rape. And I would like to see some statistics on that. I noted that the statistics had quite a range.

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http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...nd-Deacons-in-the-United-States-1950-2002.pdf

Skwim said:

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"A new billboard in Chicago encourages people to leave the Catholic Church and “value children over dogma.”

The Freedom From Religion Foundation’s text may not even be the most interesting thing about the ad. It was actually paid for by a victim of sexual abuse at the hands of a Catholic priest… with the settlement money he received from his diocese.

The billboard went up yesterday on the Kennedy Expressway west of Montrose and will be up for another month.

It couldn’t come at a better time. As we learned in December, the Attorney General’s office is investigating abuse in the Church and announced that the state’s six dioceses had been covering up allegations involving more than 500 priests and other clergy members. Another 185 priests credibly accused of abuse had already been publicly identified by the Church.

Since the Church can’t police itself, it’s up to Catholics to force their hand by walking out and taking their money with them. It’s the only way the harm against children will ever be taken seriously.
source
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WOW!

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It seems to be the top of the pile who seem to be the problem. Many Catholics are normal people who like their religion . Maybe they should all dismiss all of the leaders and form their own Catholic churches with clergy being the local members of their church.

Iow, fire the top brass who are the bad actors. A local priest within a local church won't last long if they molest their flock.

The people who love their religion and church shouldn't be equated with the freaks in charge doing the abusing.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

... because you're okay with sexual abuse of adolescents and adults?

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Of course, any sexual abuse is wrong; I'm just pointing out the fact that 99.9 percent of American Catholic Priests aren't pedophiles in comparison to the 97 percent of the overall general male American population, at best, who aren't pedophiles. We should be aware that pedophile is at least 30 times more pervasive among the general American male population than it is within the U.S. Catholic Church.

Subduction Zone said:

It depends upon how one defines rape. And I would like to see some statistics on that. I noted that the statistics had quite a range.

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I'm just adding highlights of the article instead of posting the whole thing. Those interested can go read it.

"National Sexual HealthSurvey (NSHS), a large, comprehensive study of American sexuality based on in-depth interviews in 1996 with a representative sample of 8,400 Americans, age 18 to 88.

Under "other," the NSHS asked: Who? Surprisingly, not one victim mentioned a priest. Most of the abusers in this category were teachers, neighbors, doctors, grandparents, a parent's friend or coworker, or an adult around the house: a gardener, or repairman.

Not a single priest. I emphasize this not to exculpate pedophile priests, but rather to elucidate the reality of this crime. While celibacy and sexual repression may contribute to Catholic priests' risk for pedophilia, child sexual exploitation is most often triggered by proximity to children and the opportunity to exercise authority over them. It's more likely to happen in the child's home than outside it. The perpetrator is most likely to be someone the child and parents know, for younger children, a caregiver, for teens, a social contact.

https://www-psychologytoday-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/201003/beyond-bad-apple-priests-who-the-pedophiles-really-are?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQCCAE=#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/201003/beyond-bad-apple-priests-who-the-pedophiles-really-are

Skwim said:

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"A new billboard in Chicago encourages people to leave the Catholic Church and “value children over dogma.”

The Freedom From Religion Foundation’s text may not even be the most interesting thing about the ad. It was actually paid for by a victim of sexual abuse at the hands of a Catholic priest… with the settlement money he received from his diocese.

The billboard went up yesterday on the Kennedy Expressway west of Montrose and will be up for another month.

It couldn’t come at a better time. As we learned in December, the Attorney General’s office is investigating abuse in the Church and announced that the state’s six dioceses had been covering up allegations involving more than 500 priests and other clergy members. Another 185 priests credibly accused of abuse had already been publicly identified by the Church.

Since the Church can’t police itself, it’s up to Catholics to force their hand by walking out and taking their money with them. It’s the only way the harm against children will ever be taken seriously.
source​

WOW!

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The RCC needs to go the way of the dinosaur, same as Islam.



Every Catholic is complicit in the rape and sexual abuse of children by their predatory priests. After all, don't they still pay their salaries?