OK, I disagree. I think it makes a *huge* difference.
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The flaws in Intelligent design
- Thread starter Bear Wild
- Start date
OK, I disagree. I think it makes a *huge* difference.
Audie
Veteran Member
Is it.
It is well to study words, and think about nuance,
as John Kerry might put it. There is much to consider.
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - faith
Consider degrees of faith, and faith in what.
Surely you see a distinction between faith in "god",
and in a hooker.
Audie
Veteran Member
If someone's faith in god is in no way different from
their faith that the bus will come on time, that is their
deal.
I it unsuitable to speak for everyone in this regard.
I've actually said something about this before, but it's worth repeating, I think.
Very often, what religious folk call "faith" really doesn't seem to be what they think it means. For example, I belief with perfect "faith" that both Pi and the square root of 2 are irrational numbers, and that there is no largest prime number. That last one is a pretty tough belief, too, since that means that not only are there are infinite number of numbers, there is also an infinite number of prime numbers. That stretches my poor abilities quite a bit, yet I believe it.
I believe in the power of gravity to kill me if I'm not careful. I believe that the theory of evolution is correct in its essence, while there may be questions about many details, and I believe those things because I've studied the sciences behind them, again to the best of my poor abilities.
What I never, ever do, however, is to weekly chant a mantra or recite my beliefs in order to make myself feel more secure in them. I don't need to, because I do, in fact, believe them.
And yet what happens in every religious service, daily or weekly or whenever, all around the world, in pretty much all religions? Exactly that! A recitation of the things that the religion is supposed to believe with perfect faith. repeated aloud by entire congregations, as if they need to bolster their belief, to convince themselves that they really do believe it. When I was young, and was taken to church, it was the Apostles' Creed, but other faiths and denominations have their own.
And I tell you truly, that is one of the things that make me sure that most people of religion really don't believe in the way that the word "faith" implies, what they like to say they believe. That, and the fact that so many of them act in ways that are completely contrary to what they say their religion is all about. Mahatma Gandhi got it quite right when he said, "I like your Christ very much...it's your Christians I do not like." He meant by that that very few so-called Christians do so much that Christ charged them to, love each other, forgive each other, take care of each other, and stop judging each other, no matter who.
We Never Know
No Slack
Having faith God exists or having faith the hooker doesn't have aids are both believing without knowing.
Just because it's coupled to religion or something else doesn't change what faith is.
For example telling a child you have faith in them as they are heading out to take their board exams is encouraging them as "I believe you will pass" when in reality it isn't known for sure.
We Never Know
No Slack
You can have a basketball, a soccer ball, a baseball, a golf ball, a beach ball, a football, etc. No matter what they are used for, they all are balls.
You can have faith in God, faith the hooker is clean, faith the bus will come on time, faith in your child, etc. No matter what it is used for, faith is believing without knowing.
It's all about labels. Labels don't change the core of what something is. That's my opinion and I don't expect you to have the same.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
A bit of an equivocation fallacy there since those are different sorts of "faiths".
We Never Know
No Slack
Faith is believing without knowing. They are not different faiths, they are faith in different things.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, they very different. For example one has "faith" in the bus because it has a published schedule and it is fairly reliable Hardly faith at all. Faith in one's child can vary wildly depending upon a parent's relationship to that child. One may know one's child extremely well or in the case of a father that has abandoned his child not at all. And I don't have that much experience with hookers, that seems to be a rather risky crapshoot to me.
This sort of proves my point. Don't try playing soccer with a baseball. They may both be 'balls', but the effects are very different.
And yet, they are still quite different in the evidence for them and their effects. Sort of like trying to play soccer with a baseball, don't tery to use religious faith to decide a question about science.
Fair enough. But I think it misses some important distinctions to put all those types of 'faith' together under one label.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
Why? Because you want Him to? I don't think that God worries all that much about what you want.
................ok, that came out wrong. I don't think that God worries all that much about what any of us, individually, wants. Including you, or me, or...Joe Blow down the street, insofar as proving that He is, anyway.
I've only written that in almost every post I've written on this thread. The thing is, I don't think that 'subjective' is a dirty word. There's nothing wrong with dealing subjectively with religion or philosophy. In fact, anybody who lives his life demanding objective proof for any and everything is going to live a very circumscribed and lonely life.
He will never love, or have friends...or enjoy things around him simply because of their beauty. He'll never understand most of the things that humans find necessary to life.
True, someone who lives entirely in the world of subjective experiences is nutso....but I truly pity those who really do refuse to admit subjective experiences and learning into their lives.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
It's 'faith' as long as there is even the slightest chance that the bus won't show up on time. Since most city bus lines have, er, variable schedules, someone who shows up to the bus stop 'in the nick of time' is going to have his expectations disappointed more times than he will appreciate.
"Faith" is, basically, acting as if the things one believes to be true IS true. Faith and belief are NOT synonyms, no matter how many people want to make them such. One can believe something to be true and have no faith in it....and one can have little belief in something, logically, and still behave as if that something were true.
Two examples: my sister won't cross a bridge. For any reason. You can inundate her with data, engineering reports...shoot, her husband worked for JPL as a metal fatigue expert. HE can tell her that the bridge is fine. She won't cross one. She believes all the comforting information....but she has no faith.
Hundreds of thousands of people buy lottery tickets (Millions, perhaps...) understanding quite well that the odds of their winning are infinitesimal; millions to one, sometimes. They buy anyway. They have very little belief...but they have faith, by George; they buy the ticket.
I haven't read the post to which yours is a response, so I'm not going to address the 'hooker' comment.
I will say this; religious faith isn't any different from faith anywhere else; it simply means 'trust.' One has faith in one's beliefs, whether religious or any other area of one's life. If you don't like the evidence upon which someone ELSE bases their beliefs, tough....I'm not all that approving of the 'evidence' you have in your lack of belief. Doesn't make a difference, though; you believe...and you have faith in your beliefs.
I believe, and I have faith in mine; that is, I will behave as if the God I believe in actually exists.
The one thing we can't say, though, is that because we don't like the evidence upon which someone else bases their beliefs (subjective, objective, imaginative, oral, whatever) the faith they have is bogus while our own is 'true.'
Oh, and "faith" isn't a dirty word, either. We all live according to faith, whether that faith is based upon objective evidence of which you might approve or not.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Nope, one must be consistent in a definition, otherwise the term not of much use. This is a case of a Tu Quoque fallacy. Theists realize that faith is not reasonable so they accuse others of having it too.
I haven't read the post to which yours is a response, so I'm not going to address the 'hooker' comment.
I will say this; religious faith isn't any different from faith anywhere else; it simply means 'trust.' One has faith in one's beliefs, whether religious or any other area of one's life. If you don't like the evidence upon which someone ELSE bases their beliefs, tough....I'm not all that approving of the 'evidence' you have in your lack of belief. Doesn't make a difference, though; you believe...and you have faith in your beliefs.
I believe, and I have faith in mine; that is, I will behave as if the God I believe in actually exists.
The one thing we can't say, though, is that because we don't like the evidence upon which someone else bases their beliefs (subjective, objective, imaginative, oral, whatever) the faith they have is bogus while our own is 'true.'
Oh, and "faith" isn't a dirty word, either. We all live according to faith, whether that faith is based upon objective evidence of which you might approve or not.
Since the hooker comment was part of the previous response perhaps you should have read it. And no, you may define it that way, but the Bible clearly does not. Not all of us live according to faith. One should not project one's own sins upon others.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
You really need to revisit the 'Logical fallacy' page on Google.
The bible clearly DOES define it that way.
James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
As you can see, the Bible very clearly differentiates 'belief' and 'Faith.' Faith is not faith (dead faith, being alone) without the 'works,' that is, behaving as if what one beliefs is true is true.
Because 'even the devils believe, and tremble." Nobody can accuse devils...as described in the Bible...of doing the works associated with that belief. They don't have faith.
Because faith without works is dead faith, being alone. Belief is simply belief. Faith is belief plus works (or the behavior that proves one really does believe something enough to act upon that belief).
And yes, we all live on faith, whether it is religious faith or trust in the information we have in other matters. One poster here, I think, alluded to the FACT that we do not KNOW that the sun will rise....but it's a pretty good bet.
Still, one of these days, far down (or up...I can never get that straight) some critter will poke his head out of his home and see the sun...not knowing that four minutes ago it exploded.
We only know that the sun was shining eight minutes ago, when we look out the window at a sunny day. Until then we only have faith that it is still shining. Faith based on really solid evidence, of course, but it's still faith.
Scientists have put great trust (i.e. faith) in many theories over the centuries. Misplaced faith in many instances. Even now, though 'theory' doesn't mean 'guess' in any way, those theories get revisited, and updated, frequently. That's faith/trust, not absolute knowledge.
It doesn't matter what area of life one is speaking about; if there is any hint...any possibility at all...that one could be wrong about something, it's 'faith,' not knowledge...because faith is what one does about one's opinions and beliefs, not what those beliefs are.
Timothy Spurlin
Active Member
Subjective is not a dirty word. But, subjective evidence or experiences will never prove a god exist. For that you need objective evidence, something from outside of the mind.
Timothy Spurlin
Active Member
I once was religious, was a christian, then I became a pagan. Then I became an Atheist, I outgrew the need for religion.
If I was god, I would leave objective evidence of my existence.
Timothy Spurlin
Active Member
Science is not based on faith. Science is based on objective evidence.
Religion is based on faith.
Faith = belief without evidence
We Never Know
No Slack
The schedule is what gives you faith the bus will be on time but you don't know. It might have a flat, get caught up in traffic, be in a accident, break down, etc.
Faith is believing without knowing.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Sorry, but your use of "faith" is not at all consistent.
We Never Know
No Slack
Why falsely accuse me of something when I've consistently said faith is believing without knowing.
The bus schedule gives you faith the bus will be on time but you don't know because it could have a flat, be in an accident, get stuck in traffic, etc. You can't refute it so you falsely accuse me of being inconsistent when you are the one that thinks faith comes in different ways. It's not my fault that you couple it with things and think it has a different meaning, more or less meaningful.
Again, faith is believing without knowing.