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Do You Have a Problem with Infinity?

Thief

Rogue Theologian
We use observations to deduce things about the world using science. That's how we can say that there is plenty of evidence for space-time and there being no separation of the two.

No amount of unevidenced assertions can justify your claims that, on the one hand "space is real enough", and on the other, "time is all in your head".

The evidence flatly contradicts you.
nay .....at least once more

the calculations require a measure of distance
and a comparison of intervals displayed by manmade units

seconds, minutes, hours, .............eons.......
inches, feet, yards, miles........par secs......

all man made ideas
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
nay .....at least once more

the calculations require a measure of distance
and a comparison of intervals displayed by manmade units

seconds, minutes, hours, .............eons.......
inches, feet, yards, miles........par secs......

all man made ideas

All of which is totally irrelevant to the fact that space-time is one thing so to claim that space is "real enough" while time is "all in your head" is inconsistent nonsense.

One is as real (or not) as the other.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
All of which is totally irrelevant to the fact that space-time is one thing so to claim that space is "real enough" while time is "all in your head" is inconsistent nonsense.

One is as real (or not) as the other.
time is a quotient on a chalkboard

it cannot be found in reality
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
just viewed a you tube item.....the Banach/Tarski Paradox

but can you deal with such things?

These mathematical artifacts have to do with the semantics of language or qualities of human language and not with reality. Let me explain by analogy. When you go into McDonalds and buy a Big Mac, there's a pretty picture on the menu. When you sit down at the table and open your Styrofoam container what you look at is a blob of food that doesn't look like anything that was showing in the picture. What this means is our words are not the reality they represent. Words are like a map. No matter how much detail you add to the map, reality always has more detail. So this means our maps of reality are not the reality they represent.

The paradoxes listed in the video occur in mind-space even though by showing a sphere in the video the author was implying reality. In mind space, with semantics, semantic connections are being made because our minds flex. Our mind is closing meaning between two points by bending to make the connection. There is nothing in our imagination preventing us from making the connection between two points of meaning. Connecting the dots is easy in one's imagination. Reality, however, does not flex the same way.

Reality dictates what is real by uncountable waves of energy interacting in every possible direction. Rogue waves converge causing experimental errors and other unexplainable events in reality not in accordance to some language of mathematics we use to represent reality's behaviors.

Mathematics is just a language. Just like every language there are an unlimited amount of things you can say with words. There are an unlimited amount of things you can write about in mathematics. And just like words, in mathematics, there's a smaller subset of language that loosely maps with reality. The Banach–Tarski Paradox is a cute story. It may map to some part of reality in some limited context. But it most likely does not.

What I mean by loosely is in order for any mathematical pattern to be identified to exist in nature it always has to be bounded by a limited scope. Reality is so much more messy that our representations of it. Technology is great but it never lasts long and it's always breaking. If you really want to impress me take something with a thousand parts and predict exactly when it will break and exactly how it will break.

The problem with reality is it has no scope. If it did have scope then we could predict the exact moment when a particular radio active decay would occur with exact precision. Instead, what we have is everything is connected to everything else without any scope. Our imaginations have a limited scope created by our experiences which is very different than reality.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
These mathematical artifacts have to do with the semantics of language or qualities of human language and not with reality. Let me explain by analogy. When you go into McDonalds and buy a Big Mac, there's a pretty picture on the menu. When you sit down at the table and open your Styrofoam container what you look at is a blob of food that doesn't look like anything that was showing in the picture. What this means is our words are not the reality they represent. Words are like a map. No matter how much detail you add to the map, reality always has more detail. So this means our maps of reality are not the reality they represent.

The paradoxes listed in the video occur in mind-space even though by showing a sphere in the video the author was implying reality. In mind space, with semantics, semantic connections are being made because our minds flex. Our mind is closing meaning between two points by bending to make the connection. There is nothing in our imagination preventing us from making the connection between two points of meaning. Connecting the dots is easy in one's imagination. Reality, however, does not flex the same way.

Reality dictates what is real by uncountable waves of energy interacting in every possible direction. Rogue waves converge causing experimental errors and other unexplainable events in reality not in accordance to some language of mathematics we use to represent reality's behaviors.

Mathematical is just a language. Just like every language there are an unlimited amount of things you can say with words. There are an unlimited amount of things you can write about in mathematics. And just like words, in mathematics, there's a smaller subset of language that loosely maps with reality. The Banach–Tarski Paradox is a cute story. It may map to some part of reality in some limited context. But it most likely does not.

What I mean by loosely is in order for any mathematical pattern to be identified to exist in nature it always has to be bounded by a limited scope. Reality is so much more messing that our representations of it. Technology is great but it never lasts long and it's always breaking. If you really want to impress me take something with a thousand parts and predict when it will break and when.

The problem with reality is it has no scope. If it did have scope then we could predict the exact moment when a particular radio active decay would occur with exact precision. Instead, what we have is everything is connected to everything else without scope. Our imaginations have a limited scope created by experience.
ok.....in a quick knee jerk fashion....
you are attempting to express.....

you're not sure
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
the imagination is the problem solving part of the mind
and there are no problems you can solve without it

If you cannot imagine a solution
preparing a proving might never happen

calculations help
but that's just numbers

the physical reality doesn't need our measuring to be there

the movement goes on
even if no one takes a measure
even if no one observes the event

and the movement will go on .....infinitely
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
not unsupported

obvious

Not in the least bit obvious, quite the reverse, I would say it is obvious you are wrong. In fact I have no idea at all why you'd think that space is real and time not. It seems totally absurd to me. Thankfully we have objective evidence, so we don't have to rely on arguing about subjective assessments of how 'obvious' things are to different people.

The evidence tells us that you are wrong.

One thing that modern science has shown is that what is subjectively obvious to humans is often not actually the case.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Not in the least bit obvious, quite the reverse, I would say it is obvious you are wrong. In fact I have no idea at all why you'd think that space is real and time not. It seems totally absurd to me. Thankfully we have objective evidence, so we don't have to rely on arguing about subjective assessments of how 'obvious' things are to different people.

The evidence tells us that you are wrong.

One thing that modern science has shown is that what is subjectively obvious to humans is often not actually the case.

I do not agree with your point of view. Nothing is objective since what is objective is determined by subjective judgments.

I do not think language is as powerful as you seem to think when talking about reality.

It's funny how people use the phase "In fact" when they express and opinion.

Regardless, time is not real. Here's a really good article why time is like the concept of God. You can't prove time exists:

"There Is No Such Thing As Time"

"If you try to get your hands on time, it's always slipping through your fingers," says Barbour. "People are sure time is there, but they can't get hold of it. My feeling is that they can't get hold of it because it isn't there at all."
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
the movement goes on
even if no one takes a measure
even if no one observes the event

If no one is around to hear the tree fall the forest doesn't exist. Reality only exist because a conscious observer of reality exists.

Prior to the invention of the word of God, that is the use of language, the Universe did not exist. It was a nameless void of non-existence.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
If no one is around to hear the tree fall the forest doesn't exist. Reality only exist because a conscious observer of reality exists.

Prior to the invention of the word of God, that is the use of language, the Universe did not exist. It was a nameless void of non-existence.
can't agree with you at this crossroads.....

reality was here long before me
it will continue whether I observe (and measure) ....or not

the exception......God

reality is here for the Creator is the Cause
and I am willing to assume the Creator is still living

if the Creator is not ......observing....
the would be nothing to observe
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Nothing is objective since what is objective is determined by subjective judgments.

If you want to be pedantic about it, call it intersubjectively verifiable (Karl Popper).

I do not think language is as powerful as you seem to think when talking about reality.

I have no idea what this is about.

It's funny how people use the phase "In fact" when they express and opinion.

I used the phrase "In fact I have no idea at all why you'd think that space is real and time not." It is a fact that I have no idea why Thief thinks this - one I have direct access to.

Regardless, time is not real.

Your evidence for this statement is missing.

Here's a really good article why time is like the concept of God. You can't prove time exists:

"There Is No Such Thing As Time"

Yes, I have Julian Barbour's 1999 book on the subject (The End of Time). He doesn't seem to have convinced many of his peers about it in the last 20 years. Strictly, it doesn't really say that time doesn't correspond to anything external to the mind - it becomes a string of "nows". It is, of course, pure conjecture.

At the opposite end of the spectrum I could point you to another conjecture that absolute time being all that is fixed and permanent: Lee Smolin Time Reborn.

This doesn't change the fact (yes, it is a fact) that the evidence corresponds exactly with relativity and its view of space-time.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Digressing a little, given an infinite cosmos, is the substance of its omnipresence better described as zero point energy or the quantum vacuum. Iow, do these two concepts refer to the same 'thing'?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
the effect of motion will be there
time is a measure
that we understand the event

not a force
not a substance

Time is a measure, it's a measure of how much you have moved through the time dimension.
you can measure space as well.
So it's like saying "space is a measure".
It makes no sense with regards to modern science.

Movement through space slows you time movement down. Has nothing to do with measuring. You experience slower time and faster space.
At the fastest speed in space your time goes to zero.
You can't measure zero time from that reference frame. You have no time. Yet even without the measurement your still experiencing zero time.

You can measure the distance a photon travels. Yet it's time frame is frozen.

Or more exactly, a photon is experiencing zero time at light speed.
So clearly time is a dimension just like space. This was figured out by Minowski in 1906 right after Einstein produced his SR paper. Minowski was his instructor and understood the implications right off.

And again, in a black hole we know that the time and space dimensions reverse.
Clearly both are dimensions.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
^^ Time measurement is a human mind derived concept that involves the measurement of the relative movement of, or in, the measuring device, it is not some real tangible cosmic entity. Iow, the universe exists, and continues to exist. The concept of time is related to the proxy observation of finite segments of the continuity of things that exist.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I find it interesting that this thread has moved from a discussion of the infinite (and the Banach-Tarski paradox) to a discussion about the reality of time.
 
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