LMAO
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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints vs the Westboro Baptist Church
- Thread starter Katzpur
- Start date
It's almost spring.
Isn't that the time of year you traditionally revert to Catholicism?
Tom
You need to ditch your nasty little attitude because I didn't make any personal comments about you. I was solely replying to your comment, so don't start.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You may find this interesting: QB Steve Young and his wife come out strong for gay rights. I found it encouraging. Sometimes Mormons are hesitant to stand up for what they believe when it's in opposition to Church policy. A few of us aren't, and it's especially good to hear when a prominent member of the Church takes a stand.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Apparently Fred himself was eventually cast out by his own church/family toward the end of his life:
"According to Phelps' grandson and former church member Zach Phelps-Roper, Phelps was voted out of the church after undergoing a "change of heart" regarding his religious beliefs. Zach reported that Phelps had spoken in support of the members of Equality House across the road from the church, which was regarded as "rank blasphemy" by the church.
On March 15, 2014, Nathan Phelps, Phelps' estranged son, reported that Phelps was in very poor health and was receiving hospice care.He said that Phelps had been excommunicated from the church in August 2013, and then moved into a house where he "basically stopped eating and drinking". His statements were supported by his brother, Mark.
Church spokesman Steve Drain declined to answer questions about Phelps' excommunication, and denied that the church had a single leader. Drain said that "the church of Jesus Christ doesn't have a head" and "the Lord Jesus Christ is our head". Referring to the church having a defined leader, he said that "for a very long time, we haven't been organized in the way you think". The church's official website said that membership status is private and did not confirm or deny the excommunication.
Phelps died of natural causes shortly before midnight on March 19, 2014. His daughter, Shirley, stated that a funeral for her father would not be held because the church does not "worship the dead". According to Nathan Phelps, Fred Phelps' body was immediately cremated and no information about the disposition of his ashes has been released." - Wikipedia
I remember hearing about that. He apparently also wanted them to be kinder to each other.
I see the Westboro group as poison. Luckily they're only a small dose, mildly uncomfortable. God forbid they ever got any power or critical mass of followers.
I don't see the Latter Day Saints as anything like that. But they do have followers, some power, organisation. So their beliefs and choices can actually make a difference. And there are times I really don't like the direction or intent of that difference.
That's as near to a clear answer as I can give.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
That was actually a perfect answer, IMO. I agree with you 100%.
Good advice.
Jesus set the example there.The Bible encourages unity. The apostle Paul likened the Christian congregation to a human body, each member being “harmoniously joined together and being made to cooperate.” (Ephesians 4:16) Similarly, the apostle Peter urged his fellow believers: “All of you be like-minded.”—1 Peter 3:8.
The early Christians lived in a multicultural and multireligious world. Yet, when writing about the mingling of different religions, Paul asked: “What portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?” Then he warned Christians to “get out from among them.” (2 Corinthians 6:15, 17) Clearly, Paul was speaking against interfaith. Why did he do so?
The apostle explained that spiritual fellowship between one who is a true Christian and one who is not would be an uneven yoke, a misfit. (2 Corinthians 6:14) It could result only in harm to the Christian’s faith. Paul’s concerns were like those of a father who knows that some children in his neighborhood behave badly. As a concerned parent, he wisely sets limits on whom his child should play with. His restrictions may be unpopular. Under the circumstances, however, being separate would protect his child from bad influences. Similarly, Paul knew that being separate from other religions would protect Christians against their harmful practices.
In taking that stand, Paul was imitating Jesus. While Jesus set the greatest example in promoting peace among people, he did not practice interfaith. Many religious groups, such as the Pharisees and the Sadducees, were active during Jesus’ earthly ministry. In fact, these religious factions joined forces to challenge Jesus, going as far as to plot his death. Jesus, on the other hand, directed his followers to “watch out . . . for the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”—Matthew 16:12.
What about today? Is the Bible’s warning against interfaith still valid? Yes, it is. This is because differing religious beliefs cannot bond through interfaith any more than oil and water can mix simply by putting them together in a pot. For instance, when people of different religions come together to pray for peace, which god is being petitioned? Christendom’s Trinitarian God? Hinduism’s Brahma? The Buddha? Or someone else?
The prophet Micah foretold that “in the final part of the days,” people from all nations would say: “Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” (Micah 4:1-4) The result would be peace and unity on a worldwide scale, not because all faiths are somehow joined, but because all people accept the one true faith."
Taken from "Interfaith" JW.ORG
Good advice.
The Bible encourages unity. The apostle Paul likened the Christian congregation to a human body, each member being “harmoniously joined together and being made to cooperate.” (Ephesians 4:16) Similarly, the apostle Peter urged his fellow believers: “All of you be like-minded.”—1 Peter 3:8.
The early Christians lived in a multicultural and multireligious world. Yet, when writing about the mingling of different religions, Paul asked: “What portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?” Then he warned Christians to “get out from among them.” (2 Corinthians 6:15, 17) Clearly, Paul was speaking against interfaith. Why did he do so?
The apostle explained that spiritual fellowship between one who is a true Christian and one who is not would be an uneven yoke, a misfit. (2 Corinthians 6:14) It could result only in harm to the Christian’s faith. Paul’s concerns were like those of a father who knows that some children in his neighborhood behave badly. As a concerned parent, he wisely sets limits on whom his child should play with. His restrictions may be unpopular. Under the circumstances, however, being separate would protect his child from bad influences. Similarly, Paul knew that being separate from other religions would protect Christians against their harmful practices.
In taking that stand, Paul was imitating Jesus. While Jesus set the greatest example in promoting peace among people, he did not practice interfaith. Many religious groups, such as the Pharisees and the Sadducees, were active during Jesus’ earthly ministry. In fact, these religious factions joined forces to challenge Jesus, going as far as to plot his death. Jesus, on the other hand, directed his followers to “watch out . . . for the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”—Matthew 16:12.
What about today? Is the Bible’s warning against interfaith still valid? Yes, it is. This is because differing religious beliefs cannot bond through interfaith any more than oil and water can mix simply by putting them together in a pot. For instance, when people of different religions come together to pray for peace, which god is being petitioned? Christendom’s Trinitarian God? Hinduism’s Brahma? The Buddha? Or someone else?
The prophet Micah foretold that “in the final part of the days,” people from all nations would say: “Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” (Micah 4:1-4) The result would be peace and unity on a worldwide scale, not because all faiths are somehow joined, but because all people accept the one true faith."
Taken from "Interfaith" JW.ORG
We've had this conversation before
There is no mention of the word interfaith to be found anywhere in the bible. Two thousand years ago when Paul provided his advise to a church in Corinth (Greece) the concern would have been the polytheism of the Greeks along with their idol worship.
Paul said:
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2 Corinthians 6:14-16
However the story about the good Samaritan is all about cutting across cultural barriers as it was 'theologically incorrect' Samaritan that helped the 'theologically correct' Jew in his time of need, while his fellow Jews shunned him.
Given Paul also affirmed slavery and male domination as part of the established social order, I'd be a little circumspect applying everything Paul said to the modern age.
The people I met in the Solomon Islands from the LDS Church, who were doing what they could to help, were all good people.
Regards Tony
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We've had this conversation before
Funny that.
Nothing has changed then.....?Absolutely correct, but sectarianism was eating away at Judaism in those day, nonetheless. Regardless of their internal bickering within Judaism, Jesus condemned them all because none of them were teaching what God's word said. They had added their own spin to everything, hence his condemnation of the religious leaders at large. (Matthew 23)
Interfaith for Christians would be sharing religious fellowship with any religious 'denomination' whose doctrines do not originate from the Bible, but which were adopted from pagan religions. Christendom has many sects, but none of them teach what Jesus did.
He did not teach about a trinity, or immortality of the soul, or hellfire....these are the core doctrines of all religions who have strayed off the path of truth as Jesus said they would. Non-Christian religions also teach these things.
Paul's words apply to all those who have yoked themselves to paganism in any way. The ones who pretend to be Christians will be the first in the firing line. You cannot mix true worship with false worship.
"But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but let him keep on glorifying God while bearing this name. 17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God? 18 “And if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, what will happen to the ungodly man and the sinner?” 19 So, then, let those who are suffering in harmony with the will of God keep on entrusting themselves to a faithful Creator while they are doing good." (1 Peter 4:16-19)
So because Jesus foretold that Christianity was to become corrupted by apostasy, Paul's words apply....what we also see in Christendom is disunity and disagreement. (1 Corinthians 1:10) You see, there is only one truth, (Ephesians 4:5).....there cannot be many versions of it without deviation into falsehood.
Thankfully Jesus knows who is teaching the truth.....he is the judge. (Matthew 7:21-23)
Yes, it was a lesson in humanity. Jesus made the Pharisees angry because a hated Samaritan was the hero of the story. He used the Jews as an example of what not to do. He never missed an opportunity to show them up for what they were....hypocrites of the worst order.
Because the man who fell among the robbers was stripped of his garments, there was no way to tell if he was a fellow Jew, (as they wore distinctive garments) so they ignored him just in case. The Samaritan didn't care about this man's religion or his nationality but simply gave aid to a fellow human in need. This has nothing to do with interfaith. It was about being human and being compassionate, regardless of any ethnic or religious difference. It is what any decent person would do.
When Gentiles were added to the Christian congregation, the Jewish Christians had to take the "good news" to people of all faiths. There could be no partiality based on race or creed. (Acts 10:34-35) Their mission was not to share the faith of those to whom they preached, but to win them over to Christ. (Matthew 10:11-15)
Given Paul also affirmed slavery and male domination as part of the established social order, I'd be a little circumspect applying everything Paul said to the modern age.
OMGoodness
....where can I find any Christian of the day being offended by what Paul said?Slavery in Israel was a fact of life. It was a means to pay off a debt without going to jail.....or a means to earn a place to live and eat in exchange for services rendered. It was not the kind of slavery practiced by the pagan nations...it was more like employment.
Male dominated societies still survive to this day, especially in Muslim countries. Headship was God's arrangement as demonstrated by the Patriarchs. But headship did not mean dictatorship. We still operate under that headship arrangement and it works well when you don't have people competing for the top job.
In my mother's era, women were the home makers who stayed home to raise the children and keep house, whilst the men were the bread winners......no one expected anything else. It was just the social norm of the time.
That was less than a hundred years ago. Trying to put today's standards on yesterday's practices is pretty silly IMO.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I hope that's true of the LDS Church too!
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
@Deeje, your comments have absolutely nothing to do with my OP. I would appreciate it greatly if you would please stick to the topic at hand which, incidentally, is NOT what you appear to think it is. It's one thing to work with religions other than your own for the common good. Such efforts don't require that we accept one another's teachings or that we compromise our own beliefs. Jesus never told us to avoid all associations with people who do not share our beliefs.
Perhaps the Gospel of Matthew is the most Hebrew of the four Gospels and has some of the strongest language condemning the attitudes and behaviours of the Pharisees. However Christ's condemnation of the Pharisees doesn't give us personally, or the JW denomination as a whole, the right to condemn anyone let alone every group that isn't JW.
None of this really matters though. Interfaith isn't establishing a new religion. It is simply a space where peoples of differing faiths can meet together to safeguard the interests of all religion. We may not agree about too much but I hope we agree we have the right to practice our faith. It also provides an opportunity for faith adherents to get to know people from other faith groups and learn about their beliefs. In that sense interfaith isn't all that different to the mission of religious forum.
As a community of diverse cultural and religious backgrounds, our aim is to provide a civil environment, informative, respectful and welcoming where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate religion while engaging in fellowship with one another.
RF Rules
Once again interfaith is not specifically about worshipping together, although one of our annual events is prayers for world peace.
International Day of Peace 21 September
In the same Chapter St Paul also says:
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
Use hospitality one to another without grudging.
1 Peter 4:8-9
I agree that Christianity has become corrupt and filled with disunity and hatred. Only the Returned Christ can provide the remedy as Christ provided the remedy to corruption and disunity within Judaism centuries ago. You are waiting whereas the Baha'is are applying the remedy.
Much of what we inevitably do is interfaith these days. It is an inevitably that we will associate in some measure with people who have beliefs and views very different from our own. Our conversation on this thread is interfaith.
OMGoodness
Slavery in Israel was a fact of life. It was a means to pay off a debt without going to jail.....or a means to earn a place to live and eat in exchange for services rendered. It was not the kind of slavery practiced by the pagan nations...it was more like employment.
Male dominated societies still survive to this day, especially in Muslim countries. Headship was God's arrangement as demonstrated by the Patriarchs. But headship did not mean dictatorship. We still operate under that headship arrangement and it works well when you don't have people competing for the top job.
In my mother's era, women were the home makers who stayed home to raise the children and keep house, whilst the men were the bread winners......no one expected anything else. It was just the social norm of the time.
That was less than a hundred years ago. Trying to put today's standards on yesterday's practices is pretty silly IMO.
I have no criticism of Paul. The time was not right to abolish slavery or establish the equality of men and women. These are however core teachings of the Baha'i Revelation, not that of the Christian era.
The promotion of peace and tolerance in the world is the responsibility of us all though. Even the JWs are playing their part whether or not you acknowledge it.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
That is absolutely true!
Oh dear. Well I'm sure that if that's the case, it's completely inadvertent.Even the JWs are playing their part whether or not you acknowledge it.
As you will appreciate the JWs never participate in any interfaith activities, have a disparaging view of all other faiths and see themselves as the only true Christians.
That being said they are still Christians IMHO.
idea
Question Everything
I don't feel like I was misrepresenting anything.
Polygamy is very real -
D&C 131:2-4
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase. (This pertains to eternal marriage, whether to one wife or several.)
The current President - Nelson is sealed to more than one wife. Marriage vows in the temple are polygamy vows.
The family proclamation is in full force outlining Mormon beliefs about male and female roles - females are supposed to take care of kids, submit to their husbands in everything, and males are supposed to preside and hold down careers.
Yes - 1 out of 4 females has been sexually assaulted. Fight, flight, freeze, ignore? I choose fighting. The bishopric member who abused our kids is in jail for the rest of their life. **** with me and I will take you out. Being empowered, strong, self-reliant, dependent on no one and nothing - that is what feels healthy to me.
You are SO misrepresenting everything.
Being eaten alive by rage is not healthy at all.
And rage is unrelated to being empowered, strong, and self-reliant. Part of those is learning how to process through emotions, rather than having them consume us. Again, I've been there.
Please seek counseling for your trauma @idea
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