Christian: Salvation

sojourner · Oct 4, 2006

People today are worshipping in many diffrent ways and doing things that are not even found in the scriptures.

The Church has always done that. Remember, the Bible was not yet written when Christians began to worship apart from their jewish progenitors.

If Jesus is the Head of the CHURCH and he is (Col.1:18) and the body makes up the church (individual members),the way it is supposed to work is that the head tells the body what to do. The body should ONLY DO what the head tells it to do.
(If) the head is leading all these denominations,WHY are they worshipping in so many different ways? And who DECIDED it was OK?

Because they worship and believe according to their interptetation of what Christ is telling them...just as you do. When my head says, "Ride your bicycle," my legs interpret that in one way. My hands, in another. My lungs, in yet another. Each has to work together in order to get the bicycle ridden. Maybe each individual grouping of the Church needs to work more closely together with other groups, identifiying and celebrating our unity, instead of disparaging our differences.

On top of all that they add to the word of God with their CREEDS BOOKS, which actually opposes the word of God (1Cor.4:6) (Rev.22:18,19) (Deut.4:2),THEN they ALL claim to be the ONE TRUE CHURCH following the HEAD (JESUS). Either Jesus did not give the instructions well enough or alot of people are worshipping and teaching the way they want (Rom.10:1-3). ALL these different churches cannot even agree how to get INTO the Lords Church. How does one explain all this? (John 17:21) says that we are to all be one (UNIFIED BY TRUTH) and that by this all the world will know that God sent Jesus.

All Churches agree that it is by faith in Jesus that we are identified as followers. John 17:21 says nothing about being "unified by truth." Many, manyof your scriptural references do not say what you claim they say. Truth is not the thing by which the world will know God sent Jesus. Unity is how the world will know.

My church doesn't have a "creed book." I'd be willing to bet that we worship differently than you do. I have been a member of the Episcopal Church, which uses a "Book of Common Prayer." It does not contradict the Bible. In fact, most of its contents are lifted directly from scripture. Episcopal worship is highly "Biblical" in nature. But I'd be willing to bet that they worship differently from you.

Alot of people are worshiping in ways that are meaningful for them, and in accordance with what constitutes proper worship, as they interpret that.

sojourner · Oct 4, 2006

From these verses it is clear we must do something to have our sins remitted.

So, you don't believe in the doctrine of grace, then?

What of Jesus' incarnation? What of his death on the cross? These acts of Jesus have no power, outside of what we do? In what way, then, can Jesus be said to be our Redeemer -- our Savior. In your scenario, it is we who redeem ourselves by our actions. It is we who save ourselves by our actions. These actions are the only way by which we can be saved. And if I mess up, through my own human frailty, and "do it wrong," God, who loves me infinitely, will send me to hell for ever. What kind of good news is this??? What happened to "O Love, how deep, how broad, how high!"? What's deep or broad or high about a love that says, "Oh, I'm sorry! Your answer was incorrect! But we have some lovely parting gifts for you! It's the home edition of 'Roast in eternal suffering for ever.' Buh-bye, now!"

This is the kind of stuff that cheapens God's gift of grace and causes people to run screaming from Christianity.

Baerly · Oct 5, 2006

sojourner said:
Neither did the early Church...until they were united under the bishops that became the leaders of the Roman Church and the Eastern Church. But that has no bearing upon whether they were "not the same Church among themselves."

By and large, the churches that celebrate the Eucharist at least weekly find in that celebration the glue that makes the Church one. The Eucharist has always bound the Church together, and has been the expression of that unity. Even in differences of local practice, or cultural norm, the Church has always been one -- and will continue to be.

One might wonder. But wondering on the part of one does not make it true. Each group does follow the teachings of Jesus, as each interprets those teachings.

John 10:27 says nothing about "why are there so many different churches?" It's talking about how Jesus' followers know him, and he knows them. I certainly know Jesus, and so do you...yet you and I are from "different" groups. Since we both follow Jesus, are we not really part of the same "sheep fold?" I'm just eating grass from a different area of the pen than you."

Neither of the Philippians references talk about doctrine. 2:5 talks about having the same mind as Christ -- that mind being one of humility. 3:16 speaks of having already attained reconciliation with God, and living up to that state of being (as I've mentioned before.) That's the "rule" mentioned in 3:16. That's also the "rule" of the NT -- that we have attained reconciliation.

OK, If that is how you interpret it.

Baerly · Oct 5, 2006

sojourner said:
Neither did the early Church...until they were united under the bishops that became the leaders of the Roman Church and the Eastern Church. But that has no bearing upon whether they were "not the same Church among themselves."

By and large, the churches that celebrate the Eucharist at least weekly find in that celebration the glue that makes the Church one. The Eucharist has always bound the Church together, and has been the expression of that unity. Even in differences of local practice, or cultural norm, the Church has always been one -- and will continue to be.

One might wonder. But wondering on the part of one does not make it true. Each group does follow the teachings of Jesus, as each interprets those teachings.

John 10:27 says nothing about "why are there so many different churches?" It's talking about how Jesus' followers know him, and he knows them. I certainly know Jesus, and so do you...yet you and I are from "different" groups. Since we both follow Jesus, are we not really part of the same "sheep fold?" I'm just eating grass from a different area of the pen than you."

Neither of the Philippians references talk about doctrine. 2:5 talks about having the same mind as Christ -- that mind being one of humility. 3:16 speaks of having already attained reconciliation with God, and living up to that state of being (as I've mentioned before.) That's the "rule" mentioned in 3:16. That's also the "rule" of the NT -- that we have attained reconciliation.

(Eph.4:4-6) is a good start on HOW we are to have unity. Verse 4 says there is one church.Society says there are many.

vs 5 says there is one faith not many,it also says there is one baptism (not one sprinkling,

(1Cor.1:8-10) says to speak the same thing.

(1Tim.1:3) says to teach No OTHER DOCTRINE.

michel · Oct 5, 2006

Baerly said:
(Eph.4:4-6) is a good start on HOW we are to have unity. Verse 4 says there is one church.Society says there are many.

vs 5 says there is one faith not many,it also says there is one baptism (not one sprinkling,

(1Cor.1:8-10) says to speak the same thing.

(1Tim.1:3) says to teach No OTHER DOCTRINE.

I understand the point you are making; however, Religion and Politics have been bedfellows in the past (and they still are in the States, if I understand correctly).........There would have been no "Church Of England" if Henry VIII hadn't found it necessary to divorce, and separate himself from Rome.

Baerly · Oct 5, 2006

sojourner said:
The Church has always done that. Remember, the Bible was not yet written when Christians began to worship apart from their jewish progenitors.

Because they worship and believe according to their interptetation of what Christ is telling them...just as you do. When my head says, "Ride your bicycle," my legs interpret that in one way. My hands, in another. My lungs, in yet another. Each has to work together in order to get the bicycle ridden. Maybe each individual grouping of the Church needs to work more closely together with other groups, identifiying and celebrating our unity, instead of disparaging our differences.

All Churches agree that it is by faith in Jesus that we are identified as followers. John 17:21 says nothing about being "unified by truth." Many, manyof your scriptural references do not say what you claim they say. Truth is not the thing by which the world will know God sent Jesus. Unity is how the world will know.

My church doesn't have a "creed book." I'd be willing to bet that we worship differently than you do. I have been a member of the Episcopal Church, which uses a "Book of Common Prayer." It does not contradict the Bible. In fact, most of its contents are lifted directly from scripture. Episcopal worship is highly "Biblical" in nature. But I'd be willing to bet that they worship differently from you.

Alot of people are worshiping in ways that are meaningful for them, and in accordance with what constitutes proper worship, as they interpret that.

Baerly writes: -The key is to worship according to Spirit and TRUTH (John 4:24).We need to really look hard at the word MUST in this verse. The way we worship is not optional. It does not matter if it is what we want. What matters is what the Lord has stated will please him (1Thess.4:1).I fear many people have not gave this any thought at all.

If it is not according to TRUTH it will not be accepted (Mt.7:21-27) (Mt.15:9).

We learn that lesson from Caine (1John 3:12). Caines interpretation of what to offer God did not work out to well. It reminds us of those in (Mt.7:22,23). They thought they were in good standings with God till judgemnet day,then they found out different.

We also learn from Nadab and Abihu in (Lev.10:1-3).They got burned up by God for not being obedient to the word of the Lord.This should put fear in every person who wishes to go to heaven one day.. in love Baerly

Baerly · Oct 5, 2006

michel said:
I understand the point you are making; however, Religion and Politics have been bedfellows in the past (and they still are in the States, if I understand correctly).........There would have been no "Church Of England" if Henry VIII hadn't found it necessary to divorce, and separate himself from Rome.

I am not so sure about that. I have faith that the word of God is more powerful than any worldy institution or organization (Rom.1:16). If it come down to it we obey God rather than man (Acts 5:29).

Please,understand it is not my words or even my thoughts,but these are the very words of Jesus. Anyone can look at them and read them straight from the bible
(Acts 17:11). Politics comes in second place to all those who love God.

Baerly · Oct 5, 2006

sojourner said:
So, you don't believe in the doctrine of grace, then?

What of Jesus' incarnation? What of his death on the cross? These acts of Jesus have no power, outside of what we do? In what way, then, can Jesus be said to be our Redeemer -- our Savior. In your scenario, it is we who redeem ourselves by our actions. It is we who save ourselves by our actions. These actions are the only way by which we can be saved. And if I mess up, through my own human frailty, and "do it wrong," God, who loves me infinitely, will send me to hell for ever. What kind of good news is this??? What happened to "O Love, how deep, how broad, how high!"? What's deep or broad or high about a love that says, "Oh, I'm sorry! Your answer was incorrect! But we have some lovely parting gifts for you! It's the home edition of 'Roast in eternal suffering for ever.' Buh-bye, now!"

This is the kind of stuff that cheapens God's gift of grace and causes people to run screaming from Christianity.

Let me bring a section of scripture to your attention and point out something. (2Peter 2:20-22) is a valuable lesson for all those who think we cannot do anything to help save ourselves . Please bear with me on this.
In verse 20 a person is saved,but then is lost because he got tangled back up in the world of sin again.(Vs)21 tells us something very interesting if we will but listen. What was it that will cause a person to lose his soul? This verse says it is the turning away from the Holy commandments. Think about it,what caused this person to lose his soul and end up in such an ugly mess? He turned from the Holy Commandments,that is what cost him his souls according to this verse. It sounds like to me as I read the bible what we do does influence where we go eternally. that is what is taught in (Mt. 7:21-27) (Acts 2:40) (Heb.5:8,9). Don't forget to look at the images the Lord gives us through the inspiration of the bible in (2Peter2:22).That is a couple of ugly images and represents a person in a lost state spiritually.He once was saved,but now is lost.

But not only that,Please look at (Titus 2:11,12).Lets look at HOW the grace of God works according to the bible.

In (vs)11 Grace appeared (notice past tense),and it came to all men.Why aren't all men going to be saved then? Let us read on and find out WHY.

(Titus 2:12) Tells us that this GRACE TEACHES us to do somethings.To many that is a new concept isn't it. What does grace teach us to do--Denying Ungodliness and Worldly Lust,we should Live Soberly,Righteously,and godly in this present world. Now these are not sugestions from God which are optional. These are the commandments of our Lord (1Cor.14:37). Not doing these things is what got the individual in (2Peter2:21) in trouble again.

Now do I believe in the grace of God? SURE I DO,but it is a biblical grace. I do not believe in grace alone and I do not believe in faith alone. The reason I don't is because the bible does not teach such a thing.One must have faith according to (Heb.11:6). We cannot be saved without the grace of God,were saved by grace (Eph.2:8,9). But that verse does not say we are saved by grace ALONE. Many are teaching that,but that is not what the bible says. I challenge anyone to find in the bible where it says we are saved by grace alone,or faith alone,using a good reliable translation. It is not there. It works kinda like the battery on your car.It takes both cables to make your car start. It is the same way with grace and works. God offers the grace to all those who will do what (Titus 2:12) says to do. In that verse were told to do some things and told NOT to do other things. That represents the New Testament Will (or LAW) of our Lord (Gal.6:2) (James 1:25) (Heb.8:10).

in love Baerly

Baerly · Oct 5, 2006

michel said:
I understand the point you are making; however, Religion and Politics have been bedfellows in the past (and they still are in the States, if I understand correctly).........There would have been no "Church Of England" if Henry VIII hadn't found it necessary to divorce, and separate himself from Rome.

Another good point to dwell on is this,Who are we going to PLEASE? Ourselves,Our Friend,Our Boss.

(Gal.1:10) asks us the question,Who do we seek to please? Men or God,it cannot be both. Many people died with this very thought in their minds while they burned at the stake. They were committed to God till death (Rev.2:10).

Do we go to a certain place of worship just because our parents attended that same place? Are we going to please God or our Parents?.

I have a cousin who searches for a church to attend that teaches the way he wants them to teach.In doing so he is actually pleasing himself. He needs to be searching for a church who teaches what the bible says,period (John 10:27) (1Peter 4:11). in love Baerly

sojourner · Oct 5, 2006

Baerly said:
(Eph.4:4-6) is a good start on HOW we are to have unity. Verse 4 says there is one church.Society says there are many.

vs 5 says there is one faith not many,it also says there is one baptism (not one sprinkling,

(1Cor.1:8-10) says to speak the same thing.

(1Tim.1:3) says to teach No OTHER DOCTRINE.

It says nothing about how we have unity. It does say that we have unity. You are the one saying that we don't have unity.

Since when is the Church's identity predicated upon what society says???

We all celebrate the one faith of Christ. Somehow, I don't think God is as picayune about the method as God is concerned with the state of our hearts. If Jesus could accept the little children (whom we "sprinkle"), and teach his disciples that to such belonged the kingdom, why can't you?

I Cor. 1:8-10 does not say "speak the same thing." It is an appeal to the Corinthians to agree and be united in mind and purpose. This is an appeal to a particular congregation that is heavily divided within itself. It has nothing to say about the spiritual state of the Body as a whole.

I Tim. 1:3 does not say, "Teach no other doctrine." It reminds Timothy that he was told to stay in Ephesus in order to "instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine." In fact, if you read on, you will find that Paul is here particularly concerned that the instruction have the aim of love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and sincere faith. Are you saying that other denominations do not practice this kind of instruction?! Paul goes on to say that some have deviated from this and "turned to meaningless talk, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions." Seems to me that he's coming down a little hard on those who put forth keeping the law as efficacious for salvation.

sojourner · Oct 5, 2006

Baerly said:
Baerly writes: -The key is to worship according to Spirit and TRUTH (John 4:24).We need to really look hard at the word MUST in this verse. The way we worship is not optional. It does not matter if it is what we want. What matters is what the Lord has stated will please him (1Thess.4:1).I fear many people have not gave this any thought at all.

If it is not according to TRUTH it will not be accepted (Mt.7:21-27) (Mt.15:9).

We learn that lesson from Caine (1John 3:12). Caines interpretation of what to offer God did not work out to well. It reminds us of those in (Mt.7:22,23). They thought they were in good standings with God till judgemnet day,then they found out different.

We also learn from Nadab and Abihu in (Lev.10:1-3).They got burned up by God for not being obedient to the word of the Lord.This should put fear in every person who wishes to go to heaven one day.. in love Baerly

You're proof-texting. Proof-texting is irresponsible interpretation. You're
forgetting, of course, that earlier in Jesus' exhange with the Samaritan woman, he mentions that "salvation comes from the Jews." I doubt any of us worship the same as they do (or did). However, that being said, the way in which worship matters is the attitude in which we worship. Psalm 51 says that the Lord will not despise a contrite heart.

I think your'e wrong. I think most people give a great deal of thought to what God wants.

Matthew 15:8 speaks to this position of the heart most eloquently. Apparently, you overlooked this in your proof-texting. Here, Jesus quotes Isaiah: "This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me." Then verse 9: "In vain do they worship me, teaching human precepts as doctrines."

Again, as Jesus himself so eloquently uses scripture to teach, it's the attitude of our hearts that God is concerned with, not a picayune adherence to rites and rituals.
The sons of Aaron were burned because they offered unholy fire, not because they had been disobedient. This is a matter of interpretation.

What kind of statement is this??? FEAR??? Fear is now to be our motivation for being righteous? What about love? I thought we love God, because God first loved us! I wish to go to heaven to be with a God who loves me. I do not wish to go to heaven out of fear of a God who discounts me so much that God will destroy me.:redcard:

sojourner · Oct 5, 2006

Baerly said:
Let me bring a section of scripture to your attention and point out something. (2Peter 2:20-22) is a valuable lesson for all those who think we cannot do anything to help save ourselves . Please bear with me on this.
In verse 20 a person is saved,but then is lost because he got tangled back up in the world of sin again.(Vs)21 tells us something very interesting if we will but listen. What was it that will cause a person to lose his soul? This verse says it is the turning away from the Holy commandments. Think about it,what caused this person to lose his soul and end up in such an ugly mess? He turned from the Holy Commandments,that is what cost him his souls according to this verse. It sounds like to me as I read the bible what we do does influence where we go eternally. that is what is taught in (Mt. 7:21-27) (Acts 2:40) (Heb.5:8,9). Don't forget to look at the images the Lord gives us through the inspiration of the bible in (2Peter2:22).That is a couple of ugly images and represents a person in a lost state spiritually.He once was saved,but now is lost.

But not only that,Please look at (Titus 2:11,12).Lets look at HOW the grace of God works according to the bible.

In (vs)11 Grace appeared (notice past tense),and it came to all men.Why aren't all men going to be saved then? Let us read on and find out WHY.

(Titus 2:12) Tells us that this GRACE TEACHES us to do somethings.To many that is a new concept isn't it. What does grace teach us to do--Denying Ungodliness and Worldly Lust,we should Live Soberly,Righteously,and godly in this present world. Now these are not sugestions from God which are optional. These are the commandments of our Lord (1Cor.14:37). Not doing these things is what got the individual in (2Peter2:21) in trouble again.

Now do I believe in the grace of God? SURE I DO,but it is a biblical grace. I do not believe in grace alone and I do not believe in faith alone. The reason I don't is because the bible does not teach such a thing.One must have faith according to (Heb.11:6). We cannot be saved without the grace of God,were saved by grace (Eph.2:8,9). But that verse does not say we are saved by grace ALONE. Many are teaching that,but that is not what the bible says. I challenge anyone to find in the bible where it says we are saved by grace alone,or faith alone,using a good reliable translation. It is not there. It works kinda like the battery on your car.It takes both cables to make your car start. It is the same way with grace and works. God offers the grace to all those who will do what (Titus 2:12) says to do. In that verse were told to do some things and told NOT to do other things. That represents the New Testament Will (or LAW) of our Lord (Gal.6:2) (James 1:25) (Heb.8:10).

in love Baerly

Here's the crux of your whole argument, and the source of the fallacy.

You maintatin that God offers grace to everyone who 1) renounces impiety, 2) renounces worldly passions, 3) lives life in the present that is self-controlled, upright and godly. Forget loving God or loving your neighbor, upon which Jesus said all the Law and the prophets depend. If I just do these three things, every minute of every day for the rest of my mortal existence (God forbid I should turn back to my own vomit and throw away my one chance at heaven!), then...only then...will God offer me grace.

That's a theology utterly devoid of hope. No one is perfect. No one can live up to that standard. That's why grace is grace! That's why grace is a gift, and not a reward! That's the reason for the new covenant making the old obsolete, as Hebrews says.

Our good actions do not bring us salvation. Our good actions are the result of our having decided to live into our salvation. You're putting the cart before the horse here. We stand in reconciliation to God, because of the Christ-event. Humanity has been completed in Christ. Nothing can change that. Our response to that grace is our good works. It is by that fruit that we are known to be in a state of grace...but the works themselves do not create salvation for us.

Once again, Gal. 6:2 says "Bear one another's burdens." In other words, act in a loving manner toward others. This has nothing to do with "doing things that will win my salvation." Likewise, James 1:25 has been misused for years by folks who wish to impose a rule of works upon the theology of grace. James' call to action is a definition of impetus, not result. The Hebrews passage (8:10) refers to a new covenant, not predicated upon the keeping of laws, but upon the ministry of Christ. The Covenant of the Law, as the writer goes on to say, is obsolete. Why? Because, finally, keeping the Law cannot save us, because there is no hope of our keeping it.

No, grace is a gift. It is our nature of having been placed in a state of reconciliation with God. We need to live into that identity. Sometimes we fall back. Sometimes we cannot see it. But, having been reconciled, we are now free to approach God in confidence that reconciliation means just that, and not some cheap, pitiful adherence to and preoccupation with a set of rules that we may falter in keeping.

Baerly · Oct 6, 2006

1Cor.1:10
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Timothy 1:3

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedoniaremain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

Looks like they do say Speak the same thing / Teach no other doctrine.

We are to speak as the oracles of God (1Peter 4:11).

Now ,when the apostle Paul writes and says the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. This means that the letters the apostles wrote were in fact the commandments of the Lord (1Cor.14:37).

The Holy Spirit brought back to the apostles remembrance all things that Jesus said to them while Jesus was on the earth according to (John 14:26 ; 16:13).

This above scripture makes those above it the commandments of the Lord. These instructions were sent to the church as a pattern for all time.

We see that pattern as commandments of the Lord which make up the New Testament Laws. (Heb.8:10).

Those laws were given by the grace of God (Titus 2:11,12). Laws teach us to do some things and not to do other things. A part of grace is the New Testament Law according to (Titus 2:11,12). in love Baerly

sojourner · Oct 6, 2006

Baerly said:
1Cor.1:10
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Timothy 1:3

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedoniaremain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

Looks like they do say Speak the same thing / Teach no other doctrine.

We are to speak as the oracles of God (1Peter 4:11).

Now ,when the apostle Paul writes and says the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. This means that the letters the apostles wrote were in fact the commandments of the Lord (1Cor.14:37).

The Holy Spirit brought back to the apostles remembrance all things that Jesus said to them while Jesus was on the earth according to (John 14:26 ; 16:13).

This above scripture makes those above it the commandments of the Lord. These instructions were sent to the church as a pattern for all time.

We see that pattern as commandments of the Lord which make up the New Testament Laws. (Heb.8:10).

Those laws were given by the grace of God (Titus 2:11,12). Laws teach us to do some things and not to do other things. A part of grace is the New Testament Law according to (Titus 2:11,12). in love Baerly

But not necessarily in the same denomination. All denominations have the same mind that was in Christ Jesus, and all are judged with the same judgment. All denominations speak the good news of God in Christ.

This is obviously in defiance of some heresy. We have a much broader world view than Paul did and a much higher tolerance for cultural differences. Our society is no longer as provincial as Paul's. We understand that others' viewpoints are valid, and that other voices are valuable in helping us come to a greater understanding about who God is -- and who we are!

My Bible says, "Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God;..." Are you not aware that there are usually several ways of saying the same thing? God speaks to us in the language of Spirit, which we must translate into verbage. And that verbage is likely to be different from someone else's, based upon our unique perspective.

Again, not what the passage says. The passage is talking about orderliness of worship by not allowing those who are not prophets, speak in worship as if they were. It says nothing about the corpus of the letters themselves being the actual words of Christ.

IMO, your stance is a little too pharisaical for me.

Baerly · Oct 6, 2006

sojourner said:
But not necessarily in the same denomination. All denominations have the same mind that was in Christ Jesus, and all are judged with the same judgment. All denominations speak the good news of God in Christ.

This is obviously in defiance of some heresy. We have a much broader world view than Paul did and a much higher tolerance for cultural differences. Our society is no longer as provincial as Paul's. We understand that others' viewpoints are valid, and that other voices are valuable in helping us come to a greater understanding about who God is -- and who we are!

My Bible says, "Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God;..." Are you not aware that there are usually several ways of saying the same thing? God speaks to us in the language of Spirit, which we must translate into verbage. And that verbage is likely to be different from someone else's, based upon our unique perspective.

Again, not what the passage says. The passage is talking about orderliness of worship by not allowing those who are not prophets, speak in worship as if they were. It says nothing about the corpus of the letters themselves being the actual words of Christ.

IMO, your stance is a little too pharisaical for me.

My friend I just posted scriptures.You mean those scriptures are to straight forward and you will not accept them because of what they teach. It tells me alot about you when you say a scripture has nothing to do with baptism and that particular scripture has the word baptism within it. That is called either denial or rebellion take your pick (1Samuel 15:23).- in love Baerly

Baerly · Oct 7, 2006

I have a few Questions for you Sojourner since you claim the church you attend (Episcopal Church) does nothing which is contrary to the word of God.

1. Does the Episcopal Church need the "Book of Common Prayer"

if you use only the bible as your spiritual guide? Isn't this Book of Common Prayer a CREED BOOK? If it is the same as the bible WHy use it?

2.In this book of prayer we find 39 Articles of the Anglican Church of U.S.A. they are found on pp.867-876 of the 1979 REVISION of the "BOOK OF Common PRAYER".

Why do you need these if the bible is your guide alone? Also can you trust these articles if they have to be REVISED?

3. Article #3 claims Jesus went to hell.

How do you come up with this?

4. # 10 claims man cannot turn to God by his own natrual strength and good works,to faith,and calling upon God....

--Does this mean man has to be eluminated by the Holy Spirit without man doing anything?Meaning a Direct Operation of the H.S.

5. #11 Claims man is justified by FAITH ALONE.

This one really gets me because the only place those two words are found together in James 2:24 the bible says we are NOT SAVED BY FAITH ONLY. I would consider this something that was contrary to the New Testament will of Jesus Christ.

6. #17 Claims baptism of young children in any wise is to be retained in the church,as most agreeable with the institution.

Do yall baptize babies who are to young to learn about the scriptures and have faith before they are baptized? Is it an immersion or sprinkling in water? And Does water baptism save?

7.Does the Episcopal Church let women preach in the pulpit?

In the light of (1Tim.2:12) women are not to usurp authority over a man,but to learn in silence.

Sojourner, I am hoping you will receive this post understanding I care about your soul much more that I care to win a debate. I am hoping when you see the church you attends teaches against the very words of Jesus you will seek the church which will adhere to the word of God (the bible),(Rom.16:16) in love Baerly

Baerly · Oct 7, 2006

These articles of FAITH of the BOOK OF COMMON can be found at:

http://www.bible.ca/cr-Anglican.htm

lunamoth · Oct 7, 2006

Hi Bearly, I find your formatting a bit confusing, but I'll try to address some of your questions. Thank you for your concern about my mortal soul.

Baerly said:
I have a few Questions for you Sojourner since you claim the church you attend (Episcopal Church) does nothing which is contrary to the word of God.

1. Does the Episcopal Church need the "Book of Common Prayer"

if you use only the bible as your spiritual guide? Isn't this Book of Common Prayer a CREED BOOK? If it is the same as the bible WHy use it?

It's a book of prayer. It gives us a common format for worship. It is grounded in the Bible.

2.In this book of prayer we find 39 Articles of the Anglican Church of U.S.A. they are found on pp.867-876 of the 1979 REVISION of the "BOOK OF Common PRAYER".

Why do you need these if the bible is your guide alone? Also can you trust these articles if they have to be REVISED?

The Episcopal Church does not rest upon Sola Scriptura but upon the three legs of scripture, tradition and reason.

3. Article #3 claims Jesus went to hell.

How do you come up with this?

This one I need to check but it's too late tonight. I think it is related to the idea that 'Jesus descended to the dead' to free them also.

4. # 10 claims man cannot turn to God by his own natrual strength and good works,to faith,and calling upon God....

--Does this mean man has to be eluminated by the Holy Spirit without man doing anything?Meaning a Direct Operation of the H.S.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here, but the idea is that God is the source of all of our movement in turning toward Him. We are not saved by our works; there's nothing we can do to 'earn' grace.

5. #11 Claims man is justified by FAITH ALONE.

This one really gets me because the only place those two words are found together in James 2:24 the bible says we are NOT SAVED BY FAITH ONLY. I would consider this something that was contrary to the New Testament will of Jesus Christ.

Not sure about this one. Probably linked to what I said above about not being saved by works.

6. #17 Claims baptism of young children in any wise is to be retained in the church,as most agreeable with the institution.

Do yall baptize babies who are to young to learn about the scriptures and have faith before they are baptized? Is it an immersion or sprinkling in water? And Does water baptism save?

Where does it say that someone needs to understand or give assent to something to be saved by Christ? Infant baptism is a sign of grace. Intellectual assent is a work. The Holy Spirit can fit in the tiniest drop of water. Baptism is an outward SIGN of an inner reality. Baptism signifies the death of our false self and our rebirth to life in Christ.

7.Does the Episcopal Church let women preach in the pulpit?

In the light of (1Tim.2:12) women are not to usurp authority over a man,but to learn in silence.

1. Priesthood is not authority but a service, a specialized role. All baptized persons are ministers of the Church. 2. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 3. The Holy Spirit still works in the world, informing our hearts and minds in ways that are right.

Sojourner, I am hoping you will receive this post understanding I care about your soul much more that I care to win a debate. I am hoping when you see the church you attends teaches against the very words of Jesus you will seek

Click to expand...

the church which will adhere to the word of God (the bible),(Rom.16:16) in love Baerly

Thank you for your concern.

peace,
lunamoth

Baerly · Oct 8, 2006

Hi Lunamoth, Does it concern you if the Episcopal Church does things in worship according to there traditions which are contrary to the bible? One scripture which would apply here is (Gal.1:6-9).We are told to DO all things in the name of the Lord (Col.3:17). It is my understanding this means by the authority of the Lord. In other words we must have authority for all the things we do. The bible says God will reject the peoples worship if it is not in spirit and in truth (John 4:24) (Mt.15:9).

In Spirit means the right attitude

In Truth means according to the words of Jesus (the New Testament)
(John 17:17) (John 8:32).

WE must understand the plan of salvation before one is baptized.

We learn this from reading (Acts 8:30).The Spirit told Philip to go and help the Ethiopian eunich.The first thing Philip said to the eunich was, Do you understand what your reading? Here we learn understanding the gospel preceeds obeying the gospel (Rom.6:3-6,16-18).

Also please notice we learn from a child the holy scriptures which are able to make us WISE UNTO SALVATION WHICH IS IN CHRIST (2Tim.3:14,15).

Notice the child must LEARN the scriptures which in turn makes them wise UNTO
(or towards) salvation..... please notice what the scriptures are given for (instruction) in righteousness.

Also (Mt.28:19) shows us that TEACHING must take place before we baptize anyone.Then after they obey the gospel they are taught to observe all things Jesus commanded (vs)20.That is infact what the N.T. is all about.

Then we learn that we can understand scriptures when we read the bible (Eph.3:3,4).

Even those on the day of Pentecost when the first gospel sermon was preached had to understand what they were doing (Acts 2:36-41),Please notice the word KNOW in (vs)36. Knowing that they had killed Jesus (the saviour) hurt them and it provoked them to seek the plan of salvation for the sin problem. That plan was told to them in (vs) 38. On that same day 3000 people were baptized
(or obeyed the gospel) when they gladly received the word of God (vs) 41. Notice the bible says they have to receive the word of God gladly to be a candidate to be baptized.

If we just get baptized without understanding what were doing or what Jesus done for us, we are just getting wet.

Please notice (Mk16:16) Belief+Baptized = Saved . This scripture also is teaching us the plan of salvation.It says one must believe first. I know what other people and religions say,but I am concerned with what Jesus said since it is his words which will judge us in the end (John 12:48).

The apostle Paul said the things I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord (1Cor.14:37).

If you can show me this in the bible I will believe it and teach it to others ------->Infant baptism is a sign of grace. Intellectual assent is a work. The Holy Spirit can fit in the tiniest drop of water. Baptism is an outward SIGN of an inner reality.

Speak as the oracles of God (1Peter 4:11).

(1Cor.4:6) ( Rev.22:18,19) (Deut.4:2) are all telling us not to add or subtract from the word of God.

Also notice (Gal.1:6-9) If anyone preach any other gospel let him be accursed
(or cut off from God).

in love Baerly

sojourner · Oct 10, 2006

Baerly said:
I have a few Questions for you Sojourner since you claim the church you attend (Episcopal Church) does nothing which is contrary to the word of God.

1. Does the Episcopal Church need the "Book of Common Prayer"

if you use only the bible as your spiritual guide? Isn't this Book of Common Prayer a CREED BOOK? If it is the same as the bible WHy use it?

2.In this book of prayer we find 39 Articles of the Anglican Church of U.S.A. they are found on pp.867-876 of the 1979 REVISION of the "BOOK OF Common PRAYER".

Why do you need these if the bible is your guide alone? Also can you trust these articles if they have to be REVISED?

3. Article #3 claims Jesus went to hell.

How do you come up with this?

4. # 10 claims man cannot turn to God by his own natrual strength and good works,to faith,and calling upon God....

--Does this mean man has to be eluminated by the Holy Spirit without man doing anything?Meaning a Direct Operation of the H.S.

5. #11 Claims man is justified by FAITH ALONE.

This one really gets me because the only place those two words are found together in James 2:24 the bible says we are NOT SAVED BY FAITH ONLY. I would consider this something that was contrary to the New Testament will of Jesus Christ.

6. #17 Claims baptism of young children in any wise is to be retained in the church,as most agreeable with the institution.

Do yall baptize babies who are to young to learn about the scriptures and have faith before they are baptized? Is it an immersion or sprinkling in water? And Does water baptism save?

7.Does the Episcopal Church let women preach in the pulpit?

In the light of (1Tim.2:12) women are not to usurp authority over a man,but to learn in silence.

Sojourner, I am hoping you will receive this post understanding I care about your soul much more that I care to win a debate. I am hoping when you see the church you attends teaches against the very words of Jesus you will seek the church which will adhere to the word of God (the bible),(Rom.16:16) in love Baerly

1) Yes, because it is the Church's rule for common prayer, common worship and common catechism. It is not a "creed book." If it were, it would be called that. As it stands, it is a "book of common prayer." The Episcopal Church does not subscribe to sola scriptura. Never has.

First of all, the Book of Common Prayer is not "revised." What you're looking at is an "edition." Namely, the 1979 edition. The last edition before that was in 1928. Secondly, if you check that edition of the BCP against the current edition, you will find that the Articles of Religion were not changed when they were included in the printing of the 1979 edition. Revision of the contents of the BCP happens with respect to the language ("King's English" vs. modern English.) There were some changes in the order of worship, in order to render the liturgy more true to ancient and ecumenical forms, plus some minor changes in the rubrics (rules for performing the rites) reflecting a rule that is more reasonable for the 20th century Church. The Articles of Religion have not been revised since their ratification in 1801.

#'s 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are all arguments of Biblical interpretation. Neither I, nor the Church can help it if you choose to interpret scripture one way, use that interpretation to form the ground of all truth, and then condemn the rest of us for interpreting it another way.

#3 is in the Apostle's Creed (yes, the ECUSA is a creedal body).
#4, No. It means that the Holy Spirit guides us to choose God's way. Without the influence of the Holy Spirit, we choose our way.
#5, you would consider it contrary. The Episcopal Church does not. That's why you're not an Episcopalian. The difference between the ECUSA and you is that the ECUSA doesn't believe that your mortal soul is in danger if you don't hold the exact same beliefs as them.
#6, Do you feed your babies, even though they are too young to understand why their bodies need nutrition? Is it mother's milk, or soy product? It is the Spirit that is efficacious in baptism -- neither the water, itself, nor the act. The elements and actions are an outward sign of an inward grace.
#7, Yes. And, by and large, they're very good at it! The diaconate, presbyterate and bishopric are not seen as positions of authority, but positions of servitude. Christ is our Authority.

The word of God is available to us also through Holy Tradition. Your fears are grounded in your interpretation. The ECUSA is not dependent upon the way Baerly interprets the Bible, but upon the way the Tradition has been handed down through the Apostolic Succession. I'm sorry this position is causing you to worry about my soul.

P.S. You're mistaken. I do not attend the Episcopal Church. I was a member in good standing in the past -- in fact, a postulant for Holy Orders at one time. I now serve a different denomination, but my theology remains close to the ECUSA.

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