More than one mind killer, eh.
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How/When will your God be proven?
- Thread starter Salvador
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ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
There is absolutely no need to have an alternative "origin of the universe" theory in order to dismiss a god as (at best) a baseless guess. A god (or some gods) don't answer the basic "why something rather than nothing or something different?" question anyway.
The existence of a god that creates this universe is no less mysterious and unexplained than just the universe by itself.
Any origin of the universe hypothesis needs justification - some reason to take it seriously. I see no reason to take any of the many, many versions of god(s) that people believe (or have believed) in seriously...
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
I haven't got time right now to debate this with you, so I will leave you with this post that I have Just posted in another thread.
So I will leave you to chew on this, until I can return.
If you believe the Big Bang theory, you must accept that at the instant of the supposed singularity being spatially separated, the expanding space was filled with nothing but a plasma-like soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions and trillions of degrees. You must also believe that it was that energy which has neither beginning or end, that has become this universe and all herein, and that the quantum of that eternal energy is the wave-like particles, which are not particles at all, as they have zero mass and no electric charge, and yet they carry angular and linear momentum.
But if you believe in the theory of Evolution without intelligent design, then you must believe that a universe of mindless matter created all the life within this boundless cosmos, and your scientific evolutionists, should be able to tell you how a dog was created by your universe of mindless matter.
But they can't, they haven't got a clue, other than to suggest that they may, and I repeat, they MAY have evolved from wolves.
I myself believe in the process of evolution. I believe that the space station and all its earthly support systems, has evolved from the wheel over thousands of years, but evolved through intelligent design.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
This is firstly, totally irrelevant to my point, and secondly, is largely nonsense. No idea where you got that description but I wouldn't use the source again. The wiki article is quite good: Chronology of the universe - Very early universe
There is copious evidence for evolution as pretty much everybody in the field (of many nationalities, cultures, and faiths) will tell you. Of the tiny, tiny minority that disagree, almost all of them have an obvious religious vested interest in it being wrong. It's the same sort of situation as when the only 'experts' in the world telling us smoking was safe, worked for the tobacco companies.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Sometimes all God means to me is that which is of moral authority. The God i worship is proven not to exist. Other then that i find life is about mercy, and the dream is one day we will all be deserving of love. Many kinds of love out there, but im talking about love of virtues. I have a dream!
I can't picture myself spending any time with a god that is capable of being "proven".
That would be just too wasteful for my purposes.
That would be just too wasteful for my purposes.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
The Anointed……. So, you are either an Atheist, who is basically ignorant to the truths as revealed in scripture, or an agnostic, who is unconcerned and uncommitted to any particular question at issue, and couldn’t give a royal-rats either way.
The first law of thermodynamics is the same as the first law of conservation and that is, that energy can neither be created or destroyed. Therefore, according to this law, energy must be eternal, having neither beginning or end. Energy can be and is converted to that which we perceive as matter. In fact, this supposedly material universe at the time of the Big Bang was pure electromagnetic energy, which has been converted to that which we perceive as matter only to be reconverted to its original form as electromagnetic energy during the phase of the Big Crunch.
If you believe that a universe of mindless matter has produced beings with intrinsic ends, self- replication capabilities, and “coded chemistry”? Then you must accept that it is the eternal energy which has neither beginning or end, that has become this seemingly material universe and has developed a mind that is the compilation of all the information gathered by all the diverse life-forms that it [The Eternal Energy] or God, who is the invisible collective consciousness of all that it has become.
In fact, it has now been revealed that matter is no more than an illusion. Quantum physicists discovered that so called physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.
The Anointed said: But if you believe in the theory of Evolution without intelligent design, then you must believe that a universe of mindless matter created all the life within this boundless cosmos, and your scientific evolutionists, should be able to tell you how a dog was created by your universe of mindless matter.
But they can't, they haven't got a clue, other than to suggest that they may, and I repeat, they MAY have evolved from wolves.
Ratiocinator wrote ……..There is copious evidence for evolution as pretty much everybody in the field (of many nationalities, cultures, and faiths) will tell you. Of the tiny, tiny minority that disagree, almost all of them have an obvious religious vested interest in it being wrong. It's the same sort of situation as when the only 'experts' in the world telling us smoking was safe, worked for the tobacco companies.
The Anointed ……..But they still can’t tell you how a dog was created. The description of the path from chemistry to working biochemistry is still a work in progress, and will continue to be a work in progress, when our scientists in the field of Quantum Physics, are breaking living bodies into their basic energy components and teleporting them over vast distances on light beams, and reconstructing them to their original form, with no damage done.
But still, I believe in evolution, although evolution by design.
I believe the space station and all its earthly support systems, have evolved from the wheel, and I also believe that all the billions of creations that followed the wheel in the leadup to the creation of the space station, were merely expressions of the heights which the mind of the creator of the space station, had evolved at the time of each of those subsequent creations.
Imagine a craft lost in space with 5 breeding pairs on board. and being forced to land on some habitable planet, and there, to watch their ship sink into a pool of boiling larva. Even though they have the knowledge to build another ship, have you any idea just how long it would take for them, or rather their descendants, to build an escape vessel?
First, they would have to build up a sizeable group of humans, create farms to feed the growing population, schools for the children who would be the builders of the grand design, find and create mines for extracting the different metal needed, mining equipment, electric generators, factories to produce the myriads of components needed, etc, etc, etc.
Then after some thousand odd years, the descendants would have the necessary technology and materials, to say, “And now let us create a ship in the likeness of the one our parents lost.”
Of course; the second space station, and all the necessary components for the creation of the creator’s ultimate purpose, was created by intelligent design, as were the many universes that followed the first, which includes this one.
ratiocinator said: …….. There is absolutely no need to have an alternative "origin of the universe" theory
The Anointed ……. I’ll agree with that. There is absolutely no need to have an alternative “Origin of the Universe theory” As the ‘Big Bang,’ which is the most popular and widely accepted theory, although still in the process of evolving and in need of some changes, which theory proves that the electromagnetic energy that was spewed out as a soup like plasma in the trillions and trillions of degrees at the instant of that event, proves that the eternal energy that has neither beginning or end, and which has been evolving from all eternity and will continue to evolve into all eternity, has become this entire Boundless Cosmos.
Nothing Is Solid & Everything Is Energy – Scientists Explain The World of Quantum Physics*
So now, let me close with these words from they who know.
“Get over it, and accept the inarguable conclusion. The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual” (1) – Richard Conn Henry, Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Johns Hopkins University (quote taken from “the mental universe)
A fundamental conclusion of the new physics also acknowledges that the OBSERVER CREATES THE REALITY. As observers, we are personally involved with the creation of our own reality. Physicists are being forced to admit that the UNIVERSE IS "MENTAL CONSTRUCTION" .
Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. (R. C. Henry, “The Mental Universe”; Nature 436:29, 2005)
jfietsam
Member
To me, God already proved one part of Himself through Christianity. He showed us what He can do on an individual as well as societal level. On the other hand, He is about to show us what He will do to those who do not obey Him. So when will God prove Himself? When the land is barren and desolate, all will know that God commanded it to happen. It was prophesied thousands of years ago, and it's going to happen soon undoubtedly. He keeps us all guessing, but the writing is on the wall.
Timothy Spurlin
Active Member
I apply xenoview's razor to your claims of a god or gods.
Xenoview's razor
Objective claims requires objective evidence
Xenoview's razor
Objective claims requires objective evidence
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Relying on this nonsense is a big part of your problem. As I've already pointed out, it's written by a tax advisor, presents conjecture as fact, misrepresents science, and is, in places, scientifically illiterate.
This is nonsense. Energy isn't stuff - it can't exist on its own. Things have energy, they cannot be energy. Here is a physicist (not a tax advisor) explaining it: Matter and Energy: A False Dichotomy
Energy is conserved because of the time translation symmetry of the laws of physics (phycical law doesn't change over time) - see Noether's theorem. In this respect energy is like momentum, which is conserved because of the space translation symmetry. There is no magical, eternal energy.
This is nothing like the quantum mechanical description of an atom. It's the nonsense your tax advisor wants to believe.
Yes, he's come in for quite a bit of criticism for that, rightly so. It isn't inarguable at all. It's just one (minority) interpretation of quantum theory - there are many, many more: Interpretations of quantum mechanics Anybody who claims to know the correct answer or says that their view is 'inarguable' (without new and compelling evidence) has lost all credibility.
You really need to learn some actual science if you're going to try an use it.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Premise is a hodge podge of supposition.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Nicolaus Copernicus, who proved that the earth was not the centre of the universe, was rubbished by idiots, who refused to abandon their false beliefs. It was only when he was on his death- bed that Nicolaus Copernicus dared to publish his sun-centered model of the universe, and Galileo Galilei, who was constantly in conflict with the church, skillfully arguing with the church authorities for Copernicus views, finally died under house arrest as a prisoner of the Inquisition.
If it were not for those, who had the brains to study Copernicus' work and run with it, until his theory evolved to what we have today, those idiots would still have the world today believing that the universe revolved around our earth.
But today, that little minority of two, Copernicus and Galileo Galilei, have revealed that those who rejected the works of Copernicus, were no more than a mob of idiots.
Please reveal where any physical structure can be found in an atom, which has been proven by our Quantum physicists, to be no more that swirling vortices of energy?
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Technically, the BB scenario doesn't *require* a singularity. It is just implied by General Relativity. But a quantum thoery of gravity may avoid such.
Hmm...photons are massless, have no charge and yet carry momentum and angular momentum. Thi sis known and measured.
This looks like they at least have a clue:
Origin of modern dog has a single geographic origin, study reveals
Dogs likely originated in the Middle East, new genetic data indicate
Ancient hybridization key to domestic dog's origin, wolf conservation efforts
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Which has nothing to do with you posting scientifically illiterate nonsense from a tax advisor. The idea that things are made of energy isn't a new idea, in scientific terms, it's meaningless. It's like saying things can be made of momentum - it just makes no sense.
"Swirling vortices of energy" has nothing to do with the quantum mechanical description of an atom. The quantum mechanical description of an atom (or anything else) involves solving the Schrödinger equation to find a wave function that allows us to predict the possible values of observables.
For example: Hydrogen atom
As I said, and gave you a link to read by a physicist, not a tax advisor, energy isn't stuff. Nothing at all can possibly be made of energy - energy cannot exist by itself.
Um, no. Quantum mechanics does NOT say that atoms are no more than 'swirling vortices of energy'. In fact, there is almost no connection between the equations of QM (which are linear) and those for Navier-Stokes (fluid flow---giving vortices), which are non-linear.
Even more to the point, ALL energy in QM is associated with some quantum particle, whether it be a photon, and electron, or a quark. Energy isn't the fundamental substance. It is a *property* of quantum particles, like charge, rest mass, spin, etc.
I might suggest you actually go read a textbook on QM and see whether your viewpoint is supported or not, but I know that the math is way beyond what you can do. But, if you are willing to try, I can give some recommendations that don't use too much past calculus.
One of the first situations where I became aware of just how good our models are of the universe was with the Schrodinger equation. It is amazing that this one equation, when solved, allows us to *predict* the periodic table. The orbitals of the electrons, their energies, everything. And, when applied to, say, pairs of atoms, we can determine the types of binds, their energies, etc. All from this one, fairly simple PDE.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Just to add: one way to visualise the quantum mechanical description of the atom is probability density plots. Here are some for the hydrogen atom - not exactly "swirling vortices":
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
The Anointed……… Photons are the quantum of the electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions upon trillions of degrees at the instant of that, which is called “The Big Bang.” And a photon or wave particle, is generally regarded as a discrete stable elementary particle, but they are not a particle at all, having zero mass and no electric charge, yet carrying angular and linear momentum.
Atheists, haunt the religious forums of this world, in their attempts to discredit the scriptures which reveal the existence of the eternal, who has neither beginning nor end, and who has become all that that exists, in that, HE is all that exists, and is the invisible collective consciousness of all that HE has become, and who has made himself manifest to all as the universal being in which all exist.
He is the ‘LOGOS.’ The Greek word “LOGOS” which has been translated as “WORD”, should be seen as ‘The thoughts in the mind of the creator, which are to be expressed.
The term, “LOGOS” pertains to the very plan from the outset. [The creation of a universal body in which a Supreme mind or personality of Godhead to that body, develops.] In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vach.' Vach means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vach has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as a thought, not as the spoken word or speech.
The Logos is the essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal and invisible spirit from which all being originates, and to which all must return.
This is the condensed account of creation as recorded in Genesis’.....…”In the beginning God created the universe, and the (heavens, and the earth) were formless and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep and God’s active force was moving on the face of the waters. Then God said let there be light.”
Here is the scientific theory of creation........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG” which is said to have spatially separated the supposed infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, which event spewed out a liquid like soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions upon trillions of degrees, it was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither shape or mass, which meant it was formless and void, and no suns had yet come into existence to light up the darkness of the expanding space. But there was momentum within that ever-cooling cosmic cloud of wave particles, which wave particles are the quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy, and are not really particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, yet they carry angular and linear momentum.
One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material.
But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron.
As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen atoms were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of gravitational attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors} in which the heaver elements were formed, from which the galaxies would later be created.
And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit.
You can see the body of a person in which a mind has developed, but you cannot see that invisible mind.
The only way that you can visualize that mind supreme personality and controller of that body, is to lister to their words, which are an expression of their thoughts/words.
The Atheist who has never studied the WORD of the Lord, cannot visualize God, the collective consciousness of all that HE has become.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Whether a tax advisor, or Billy the black Smith recorded the words of Niels Bohr, is irrelevant. The following are the words of the Danish Physicist who made significant contributions to understanding atomic structure and quantum theory.
“If quantum mechanics hasn’t profoundly shocked you, you haven’t understood it yet. Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real.” – Niels Bohr