Confusions on spiritual front...

I have taken on greatest respect and love for Srila Prabhupad ji... for his greatest service bringing the blessing of Krishna consciousness to masses... His kind of accomplishment is not possible for an ordinary soul. I bow down to him in reverence.

Nevertheless I used to be very confused formerly from his statements against women, blacks, and so forth.

This thread is not to discuss such comments. But how to maintain faith and love when wrong things come from the supposedly great?

Viraja, for me it's a matter of applying my own common sense. I don't think anyone is infallible, and everyone, even spiritual teachers, comes from a background where their subconscious is still there. Their age, what they learned in early education, and all that applies. Sometimes it's just a matter of distinguishing where there comments are coming from ... their God-mind, or their more mundane subconscious.

One had to consider context, their audience and probably a few other factors.

On very rare occasion, I had casual meetings with my Guru. Generally it would be over a meal at some restaurant, and there would be a small group. I recall one time the topic somehow got to the subtle differences between Canada and the US subconscious general consciousness. What I recall is Him thanking me at the end of the conversation, for explaining it from the Canadian perspective. Him thanking me? Imagine that. Very very different context than that of a direct teaching moment, or listening to one of His spiritual upadeshas.

Audience is also so important. Another time he was talking to a group about something, and I remember getting concerned about some aspect of the topic, and how I later privately asked for clarification. He just laughed and said, 'Don't worry about it, I wasn't talking to you."

As for the teacher in question, is He your guru? For me, I take what other Gurus say with a grain of salt. There is always some divine purpose, and most likely it's none of my business.

That was a truly great reply, Vinayaka ji. Thank you very much.

Viraja said:

I have taken on greatest respect and love for Srila Prabhupad ji... for his greatest service bringing the blessing of Krishna consciousness to masses... His kind of accomplishment is not possible for an ordinary soul. I bow down to him in reverence.

Nevertheless I used to be very confused formerly from his statements against women, blacks, and so forth.

This thread is not to discuss such comments. But how to maintain faith and love when wrong things come from the supposedly great?

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Not consider great teachers as infallible and correct in all things.

Prabhupada is a great organizer , but he cannot be considered to be a great scholar or intellectual giving indepth understanding of the intrinsics of Bhakti Yoga.

His organizing skills were necessary to present the bhagavad gita and bhakti yoga to the masses.

Other than that, he had the usual prejudices of the conservative society of those times with respect to women or blacks. If he had come up today, he would have spoken in a different tune.

He was not at all racist, as he himself termed Krishna as black and considered him cute and endearing.

Both, Vinayaka and Sayak are winners. It is like Buddha or Sankara talking about Gods and Ishwara. That was for the uninitiated. And IMHO, they were wrong about Bodhikaya, Dhammakaya, and Brahman being eternal. Is Bodhikaya, Dhammakaya or Brahman (whatever you call it) bound by the human concepts of existence and non-existence?

ajay0 said:

Prabhupada is a great organizer , but he cannot be considered to be a great scholar or intellectual giving indepth understanding of the intrinsics of Bhakti Yoga.

His organizing skills were necessary to present the bhagavad gita and bhakti yoga to the masses.

Other than that, he had the usual prejudices of the conservative society of those times with respect to women or blacks. If he had come up today, he would have spoken in a different tune.

He was not at all racist, as he himself termed Krishna as black and considered him cute and endearing.

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Ajay ji,

Yes, agreed. Too many times, what we hear as popular beliefs right from birth color our own judgement on related matters. Guess no one is infallible, after all.

Just out of personal interest, I want to know who could be considered the best in Bhakti yoga intrinsics.

Thanks.

Aupmanyav said:

Both, Vinayaka and Sayak are winners. It is like Buddha or Sankara talking about Gods and Ishwara. That was for the uninitiated. And IMHO, they were wrong about Bodhikaya, Dhammakaya, and Brahman being eternal. Is Bodhikaya, Dhammakaya or Brahman (whatever you call it) bound by the human concepts of existence and non-existence?

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Dear Aup ji,

I am not following your reply... Can you explain a little more?

ajay0 said:

Prabhupada is a great organizer , but he cannot be considered to be a great scholar or intellectual giving indepth understanding of the intrinsics of Bhakti Yoga.

His organizing skills were necessary to present the bhagavad gita and bhakti yoga to the masses.

Other than that, he had the usual prejudices of the conservative society of those times with respect to women or blacks. If he had come up today, he would have spoken in a different tune.

He was not at all racist, as he himself termed Krishna as black and considered him cute and endearing.

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Yes, there was this Black devotee, originally from the ghettos but passed schooling with distinction and got into an IVY school, but later sadly contracted some form of a debilitating disease /Cancer and I could see videos wherein Prabhupad ji is consoling him all along at his deathbed.

Like in Quantum Mechanics, there is no difference between existence and non-existence, 'virtual particles' arising out of 'void' and dissipating back into 'void', changing from 'virtual particles' to 'actual particles' or vice-versa; I do not think Brahman has this constraint. 'Existence' and 'non-existence' are human concepts. But this requires some understanding of Quantum Mechanics.

That is why a rishi in RigVeda, Book 10, "Nasadiya Sukta" (generally known as 'Hindu Creation Hymn') said around 1,000 BCE:
"Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent."
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.

The poet was aware of the problem with eternal existence.

Viraja said:

Ajay ji,

Yes, agreed. Too many times, what we hear as popular beliefs right from birth color our own judgement on related matters. Guess no one is infallible, after all.

Just out of personal interest, I want to know who could be considered the best in Bhakti yoga intrinsics.

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Prabhupada was a great bhakta yogi in the sense that he created an organisation with his leadership and organizing skills so as to bring the bhagavad gita to each and every corner of the world.
As Krishna stated, " There is nothing in this world as purifying as wisdom."

I don't consider Prabhupada as a fraudster or pseudo-scholar, as he never created any pretensions in himself of being a great scholar in order to fool or dupe gullibles around him, and he seemed aware of his intellectual limitations . He was only interested in disseminating the Bhagavad Gita and corresponding vedic culture around, and presented his arguments in this regard, in his typical rustic, blunt and straightforward manner.

In terms of devotion, I think the best bhaktas are the gopis and Radha, Hanuman, Meera, Sri Ramakrishna, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Guru Nanak and so on.

Along with what everyone else said, I'm inclined to give a person the benefit of the doubt that what was recorded, verbally or written, was not what they meant. Let's say someone, a respected spiritual leader, makes a comment that sounds a little "odd". Especially if there's a language barrier. The interviewer might question the meaning of the comment. Or not. But if there's no clarification made, the comment becomes "set in stone" and we're left with a "what did he say!?". So, I'm inclined to weigh an "odd" comment against the actions and general demeanor of the person.

@Viraja , why are you getting into confusion. Be attached to your deity. Your deity is with you, there is nothing that you need to worry about. It is as simple as that. Sri La Prabhupada did what he was sent for. If he erred somewhere, others will correct him.

Thanks to all for the replies.

@AJay ji, yes, the gopis and Radha and Hanuman ji and everyone who you mentioned are exemplary devotees indeed. I was interested to know who is the modern day Bhakti yoga practitioner / instructor whom you revere?

I revere HH Radhanath Swami, HH Indradyumna Swami and HH Jayapataka Swami, all of ISKCON.

I have been impressed by four people. Swami Adgadananda and Kripalu Maharaj who are no more, and Swami Avadheshananda and Murari Bapu. Just needed to blurt it out. Also Vinayaka's sect, who have done excellent work.

Personally, I'm a traditionalist. I like the old traditional Gods, and established paths. So any tradition that goes back a thousand years, and has stood the test of time is fine by me.

There are many non-advertised silent sages out there. We only hear about those who advertise, or whose devotees advertise. This isn't a traditional way. Most teachers wait until the student finds them, and don't go looking for students. Prabhulapada was an exception. I suspect reincarnation patterns following WW2 had something to do with it. The baby boomers were looking for something of a deeper nature, and he provided that. Times have changed in the 50 years since. With immigration, here in America, and western Europe, Hinduism is around the corner in every large city. Not hard to find.

In Eastern Europe, where Indian immigration is less common, ISKCON activities are paralleling what happened in America 50 years ago.

Nice, I am also a traditionalist of 'Advaita' kind. :d

Aupmanyav said:

Nice, I am also a traditionalist of 'Advaita' kind. :d

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So much tradition is valid, and has scientific or spiritual reasons, some of which may have been lost, and people will just throw it out without any investigation. It's sad.

Viraja said:

Yes, I do not think what Prabhupad ji did is wrong, but come to think of it from a different perspective - isn't what he did sort of proselytizing? Wasn't his intention it is to spread Krishna consciousness? (I don't want to ruffle feathers here, just merely exclaiming loud).

I was watching the video of a young 6-yr old Indian kid recently, he was giving lecture to a wide audience on Krishna bhakti. I was wondering, is what his parents did to this kid correct? Spirituality is as much a personal venture to 'discover', you may be born to Vaishnava parents, but like Shiva, and vice versa, or you may be a 'karma yogi' or take a totally different path or be agnostic. Is parents shaping someone's spirituality when one is especially so young, correct? (I would not personally do it, even if I love Krishna which I do).

But nevertheless people can be shown a way to the light, but then left with a choice to pursue it or not... which may be what he truly meant.

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I don't think it was Prabhulapada doing the proselytizing as much as the young folks he 'collected' around him. You have to remember most of them came from a society where proselytizing is the norm. They had a subconscious mind of proselytizing. Much better these days with Indian immigrant non-proselytizing folk dominating the temples more.

But yes I used to find it annoying, especially if they were deceptive, or if they shot down other sects. (like mine) THat said, my Guruji and Prabhulapada were friends in San Francisco in that day.