As spoken by Christ in the memoirs of the Apostles and the church. Spoken by Jesus within a Jewish religious setting. Jesus prays his new prayer within the Jewish liturgy, he is not yet separated from the Jewish community, not yet Christian. It seems to me that to separate what are the words of Jesus from the later testimony of the church is the challenge.
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The Symbolism of Bread and Wine
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
As spoken by Christ in the memoirs of the Apostles and the church. Spoken by Jesus within a Jewish religious setting. Jesus prays his new prayer within the Jewish liturgy, he is not yet separated from the Jewish community, not yet Christian. It seems to me that to separate what are the words of Jesus from the later testimony of the church is the challenge.
My question is; when Jesus spoke of his flesh being real food and his blood real drink, did he envision redemption through blood sacrifice? Or is this the reflection of the later church? We refer to the symbols of bread and wine as eucharist, giving thanks. There is an interesting alternative, that of a bloodless sacrifice, one of giving thanks, much older, the 'todah'.
In any event, these words of Jesus have been consistent throughout the Gospels. Separating what may have been the original words of Jesus from the Christology of the NT authors, we may never know the mind of Jesus when he pronounced these 'words'.
The one thing all Christians have in common, though defined differently, is the presence of Jesus within his community of believers.
There is no challenge. Paul has effectively nailed Yeshua's testimony to the cross for Paul's followers. Paul's gospel of grace is antithetical to the gospel of the kingdom. One house is based on "grace" and protection from "death", and one is built on the "Word of God", and built using"justice" and "righteousness" (Isaiah 28:16-18), with death the consequence of transgression of the law. . Two polar opposites.
Isaiah 28: 16Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
17“I will make justice the measuring line
And righteousness the level;
Then hail will sweep away the refuge of lies
And the waters will overflow the secret place.
18“Your covenant with death will be canceled,
And your pact with Sheol will not stand;
When the overwhelming scourge passes through,
Then you become its trampling place.
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I agree. Bread appears to have been and still is a potent symbol within Judaism. The manna God provided from heaven to care for Hebrew people during their time in the wilderness is but one of many examples. Jesus of course drew on the already rich history of His people as He reworked known symbols and themes to bring a New Covenant.
What Is Challah? | My Jewish Learning
What Matzah Symbolizes | My Jewish Learning
In Euripides' play The Bacchae, the blind seer Tiresias says,
Young man, among human beings two things
stand out preeminent, of highest rank.
Goddess Demeter is one—she’s the earth
(though you can call her any name you wish),
and she feeds mortal people cereal grains.
The other one came later, born of Semele—
he brought with him liquor from the grape,
something to match the bread from Demeter.
He introduced it among mortal men.
When they can drink up what streams off the vine,
unhappy mortals are released from pain.
It grants them sleep, allows them to forget
their daily troubles. Apart from wine,
there is no cure for human hardship.
He, being a god, is poured out to the gods,
so human beings receive fine benefits
as gifts from him.
There are other examples of this kind in various ancient cultures as well. However, Roman Judea in Jesus' time was already heavily influenced by Greek culture, koine Greek being the administrative and military language, and as the lingua franca of the Eastern empire the language of regional trade. The NT was written in koine Greek.stand out preeminent, of highest rank.
Goddess Demeter is one—she’s the earth
(though you can call her any name you wish),
and she feeds mortal people cereal grains.
The other one came later, born of Semele—
he brought with him liquor from the grape,
something to match the bread from Demeter.
He introduced it among mortal men.
When they can drink up what streams off the vine,
unhappy mortals are released from pain.
It grants them sleep, allows them to forget
their daily troubles. Apart from wine,
there is no cure for human hardship.
He, being a god, is poured out to the gods,
so human beings receive fine benefits
as gifts from him.
Tr. Ian Johnston
So it appears to me that the Eucharist is an adaptation from Greek religious practice.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the bead symbolizes the Word of God.
Mat. 4:4 But he answered, “It is written,
“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
I believe the wine symbolizes spirit.
1Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Yes I believe that is symbolized also. We take in the body of death to sin and arise in Him to new life.
Rom 6:11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe old bread becomes hard and moldy and old spirits can turn to vinegar.
Well, unleavened bread (hard tack) has a longer shelf life, and one is to provide a new wine skin for the new wine. Luke 5:38 On the other hand, vinegar is the new elixir of life.
https://blog.bulletproof.com/apple-cider-vinegar-benefits/
74x12
Well-Known Member
One more significance of the bread is that when Jesus did offer them bread it was one piece of bread. Modern churches give you a bunch of small pieces of bread. But when Jesus did it with one big piece and broke it and gave everyone a piece of the same bread. This is to show the unity of the body of Christ. How they are all one in the body of Christ. All are partaking of one body and are one body. Which is why it's "Communion" with the body of Christ. Anyway, it's a minor detail which the significance of it is lost on modern churches that give everyone individual little wafers instead of breaking one big piece. Is that really super important? Maybe not, but it would be nice if they did it to show unity.
The price of wheat is 3 times the price of barley (Revelation 6:6).
Ezekiel 4:…11You are also to measure out a sixth of a hin of water to drink, and you are to drink it at set times. 12And you shall eat the food as you would a barley cake, after you bake it over dried human excrement in the sight of the people.” 13Then the LORD said, “This is how the Israelites will eat their defiled bread among the nations to which I will banish them.”…
Actually, the Passover bread was in remembrance of the unleavened bread eaten when Israel fled Egypt, and was exemplified in the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which started with a high holy sabbath, following Passover, on the 15th of Nissan. Passover was when the unblemished lamb was slaughtered and eaten with unleavened bread before the next morning, and was gone by midnight (Exodus 12:8 & 29), and the blood was applied to the doorpost as a sign to turn away the "LORD" from striking down their first born. Passover, and the Feast of Unleavened bread is part of the law.(Leviticus 23:4-9). The next Passover, will be when the angels of the LORD will turn away from those with the "seal of the living God" (Revelation 7:2), which would be the 144,000 of the "sons of Israel" (Revelation 7:4).
The problem with your and Paul's ramblings are that you are not "dead to sin" and as a sinner, apart from God, and would therefore be considered among the walking dead.
Isaiah 59:1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor His ear too dull to hear. 2But your iniquities have built barriers between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear. 3For your hands are stained with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, and your tongue mutters injustice.…
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the problem with hard tack and vinegar is that they have no life in them.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Perhaps it signifies how divided our churches are in interpreting the Word of God.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the reality is that as long as the Word is in us and the Spirit is in us we are dead to sin. When we push those aside in favor of our own desires it is a different story.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 2:13 - King James Version
Everything Jesus says is to be spiritually discerned. So possibly the whole Bible is only figurative speech, and not literal happenings.
Everything Jesus says is to be spiritually discerned. So possibly the whole Bible is only figurative speech, and not literal happenings.
The proof would be in the pudding. What is sin? (1 John 3:4) And have you sinned?
The "elixir of life", natural, unpasteurized apple vinegar is full of life. https://blog.bulletproof.com/apple-cider-vinegar-benefits/ That is what turned the apple juice to vinegar. In the case of Passover, the unleavened bread and wine are just props to keep memory of the history of Israel fleeing from Egypt/Gentiles. Why the Gentiles can't get it right, is another problem.